Evertrainz

DP2 fitted with the same flatulent raspberry horns as the deltics: https://flic.kr/p/dHXBoY - also fitted to 73s, and lots of other SR stock: https://flic.kr/p/9W9Qs8 In contrast, DP1 fitted with the pleasant Desilux horns on the roof: https://www.englishelectric.org.uk/p1021202780/h181e4a16#h181e4a16 . Looking at the Desilux horns' mounting points, I can make out the shape and profile on the pair on DP1. So what does this mean? This means that a Class 50 horn is actually not suitable for DP2, and rather (sadly) the prototype Trico-Folberth horn would be accurate (as fitted to the production Deltics around mid-1960s). In a more cheerful turn of events, this means that a diesel's roof-mounted Desilux horn sound would be appropriate for DP1 - a Hymek's horn does have a nice ring to it

Assuming that D8568 still maintains its original horns; they were actually the Hyson Airchime pair, not Desilux as I'd originally said. It makes sense considering that the Hyson horns seemed to only have been fitted to later locos, whereas Westinghouse and Desilux had wide usage on the pilot scheme locomotives. D8568: https://youtu.be/3XbJXMXurqU?t=583 Hyson pair for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq88Pn0P0HA

Would be interesting to know if some classes changed horns mid-life.

Unless it’s the doppler effect I’ve never heard (in footage at least) the horns sound like that in “normal” application, usually they’re a semitone or two lower. If I were to wager a guess I’d say it was any combination of D/Db, and G/Gb. But it’s all down to how the air is hooked up I believe!

I've been doing some research (if it shall be called that) on locomotive horns on the early diesels and electrics, and have been able to pin down three main horn types. - Desilux pair: Class 14, 16, 20 through 28; 33 through 46; 50; LMS pioneer diesels - Westinghouse pair: Class 15, 31, 86 - Hyson Airchime: Class 17; 47; 87, 89 through modern stuff - Trico Folberth raspberry horns: Class 55 Deltic and a lot of Southern region stock (73, 74, units) Class 31 had the Westinghouse, but I have heard audio showing with what sounds like the Hyson airchime. Notably, even though most had the Desilux, the mounting location and air pressure made a huge difference between the same horn pairs. You can hear the slight difference between the nose-mounted 37 horn's sound (like a 40), and a roof-horn 37 (sounds like a class 20 and often squeaky). Class 47 horn is far more "spoony" than a later gen. EMU or pacer even though both have the same Hyson horns. The Western/52s are a good example of a 'squeakin' horn. Class 25 horns sometimes had a weird sort of pitch bendy- sound (see this vs this ). I'll add that all first gen. DMUs and early AC EMUs had the Desilux horns, and apparently the GWR diesel railbus as well. I can't imagine the looks at the level crossing when they were expecting a fast Warship to hurtle down, just to be met with the tiny diesel railcar with boisterous horns This does give a good idea of the majority of the fleet; but what type of horns were fitted to the rarer/less-tended-to locomotives, like the one-offs? What horns did the early AC electrics have? HS4000, Falcon, Lion? Apparently the Deltic horns were originally fitted with something other than their raspy (horrid) horns that they maintained for most of their life; any clues? Obviously a trivial topic for most modelers since this stuff is left up to the sound guys, but as someone interested in sounds as much as visuals, I am quite curious.

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html The more I look at it, the more I think that the Class 83 cab shot on this site is from English Electric's Vulcan Foundry, the interior unpainted. The relatively shoddy finish gives it away, as do the unpainted steel strips. This link has a nice video that is useful to early AC traction modelers, and the end has a decent clip of a cab ride in an AL3. The interior there looks finished and very neat indeed. Again going back to the interior, the roof section looks to be a noticeably lighter color than the windscreen and side panels of the cab.

I've linked here a collection that is likely no stranger to RMWeb This shot shows a more representative view of the cab desk color on E3050: https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15734898347/in/gallery-137057962@N02-72157695215009780/ The rest of the shots in that Flickr collection show similar views of the other AL- classes in the lineup. Here, we can see that the AL4 has white (or grey-lavender) draught screens, while it appears to be cream on the other classes. Similarly, the AL1 has the split between cream and duck egg green on the rear bulkhead, while none of the others do. Also attached below is my attempt at a more 'proper' coloration. Critiques welcome.

Thanks guys - I have updated the desk/bottom band color to a desaturated shade of that duck egg green. The video confirms that indeed it was possible for the cab roof to be a different color from the front windscreen and driver side paneling. The roof/backhead was actually a flat grey color with no bias towards one hue, but the lighting of the scene made it appear bluish-grey. I have changed it to the ever-so-slight lavender hue of light grey, and I think it looks fitting. I've attached a couple shots that show the very slight difference between windscreen color and cab ceiling/roof - am I making this up or does it look correct? Also hopefully the first one confirms the problem of original color - it's indeed a very strong hue of yellow, rather than cream, and it actually wore to an off-white with time. The note about cab reading at least loco number, along with cab end and MPS, is confirmed - E3062 seen below.

Hi all - I've been struggling trying to identify the cab interior colors of the Class 83 cab as-built, in Electric Blue livery. I am aware that the "standard" Pilot locomotive cab color scheme was green for the bottom half, and cream for the top half. However, electrics seems to have substituted that green color for a more grey-ish color, that has a tinge of blue-green to it. The following pictures will demonstrate what I mean. It also seems to be prevalent in Class 73 locomotive cabs today. Class 85 cab (rheostatic braking switch behind power panel): https://www.flickr.com/photos/kerryp28/6117010213/in/gallery-125881805@N02-72157711442485136/ Class 83 cab: https://www.flickr.com/photos/14581588@N05/3512890881/in/gallery-125881805@N02-72157711442485136/ Class 73: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5863664855/in/album-72157627030673260/ With this in mind, I have some questions. 1. Would anyone know if the color of blue-grey used for the control desk in the above shots is 'duck egg blue'? 2. Does anyone how the 25kV AC Electric cabs were originally painted? I would assume that they were painted in a similar pattern to the diesels, where the cream and green portions wrapped all the way around the cab through to the bulkhead, however many shots show that the bulkhead is indeed painted white. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p1024248118/e2fb64802 3. Was the roof painted white, or was it painted cream? I've looked at all the pictures I can, and things are still inconsistent; for example, in the 25kV AC edition of Modern Locomotives Illustrated, a works shot from 1959-60 shows three AL1s (81s) being completed, and all have their doors open, showing the bulkhead clearly. On all three, the pattern of bluish-grey and cream is followed, with cream on top. However, in shots of other early AC electrics, the bulkhead is white, similar to the shot of E3304 above. For the AL3s/83s, the only things I can say with confidence is that the control desk is bluish-grey (duck egg blue?), the windscreen is cream, and the draught screens behind the driver and secondman are cream. The bulkheads are white aswell. Any help or information about how locos were painted, or conventional schemes of the 1960s, would be very helpful. I've attached my crude attempts at illustrating what I've got so far. (The very first one has the cab interior ceiling also painted cream, but the following three shots have the cab ceiling painted white. Which one looks more correct?) Thanks and regards Ron

More work.

Thanks for those Charles - good catch was the headcode winder digit changer which I would have completely omitted since I had no idea where it was. A couple things - what exactly did the "inspection lamp socket" do, and was it the bright orange button (if anyone remembers)? What purpose or practical use did the "vacuum chamber release push button" have? Did the AC electrics not have the DSD floor pedal? I believe that windscreen washer switches were only fitted later to the early class - I had been sent photos of the Class 83 driver and secondman side desks by a member of the AC Loco Group, and it looks very much like the Class 86 cabs, and nothing like the original English Electric stock photo featured below - which does not have the windscreen washer switch. Also a different-looking wiper speed control valve design. Regarding annotated cab photos there is this: http://www.dawlishtrains.com/driving-cabs-electric-loco.html The AL3 cab on this site was thought to be an AL1 cab in some publications (Modern Locomotives Illustrated at least) but the giveaway is the 'EE' emblem on the power controller panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYzdert7TMI This video shows off a JV16 and it looks quite similar to the V12 we can see in the startup video, apart from the addition of 2 pairs of cylinders obviously . Assuming that similar engine product lines shared similar build and casing apart from the number of cylinders (V12 vs V16 vs V8, etc) I think that the startup video actually does showcase a JV12, or maybe a JVS12T. I have no idea what the engines originally looked like but one difference is that the JVS12T was turbocharged I believe? I do wonder what the extra 'S' and 'T' stand for. EDIT: Apparently not - a quick search for the Battery Point power station reveals that it is actually a Mirrlees KVSS12, attached to Brush alternators.

WTO, that's a fascinating bit of info there. Speaking of a JV12, could this be one of those examples? Stated to be a 50-year-old (so late 50s-early 60s) Mirrlees, so might be a JV12, or even a JVS12T? I can't find anymore identifying info on it.

Latest work. Does anyone know what might be on the secondman side of the cab on the early AC locos? I know there was another horn control lever, but what else? Fire alarm test?

That’s a nice bit of film. Interesting that the vans were pasted with “lea valley” posters but considering the makeup of the train I don’t think they would have stuck and stayed in the consist for long!

That’s a nice bit of film. Interesting that the vans were pasted with “lea valley” posters but considering the makeup of the train I don’t think they would have stuck and stayed in the consist for long!

Very likely that it was a one-off. Another shot here https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8621

on the topic... Kings Cross Freighter

Yes indeed. One of my favorite clips. The loco change from 40 to AL1 and the speed at which it took place is also remarkable.

That might be it. But I thought it was after a number of incidents that the speed limit on those vans were really cut down. Maybe mid 1960s? These 1/221 vans came out around 1960 or 1961.

In the excellent video below around 8:30 an AL1 comes along with the 4M18 Ford parts to Halewood, interestingly there are a few things: 1. Most of the 30+ wagon consist is made up of ex-Izal vans, at the front primarily 2. The short wheelbase palvans retained their Izal green, although in very tatty condition 3. Some vans got a Ford branding sticker over the door inset that originally had the “IZAL products” emblem, while other didn’t And a question that I hope someone more versed with train classification would be able to answer. I’ve been able to put together that the Izal vans had two sets of branding, one reading “RETURN TO CHAPELTOWN ER” on the left-center door, and another set of branding on the rightmost door reading “TO RUN ON C-D TRAINS WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS” ... I’m only assuming that “C and D” refers to train class, as in Class C goods? Why would this wagon specifically need such a note, unlike others? Would it be down to the large Izal branding making people think they were to only run in block company trains? Happy to be corrected.

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfordpalvan/h1629c9f2 Looking closer at this pic of the Ford train it appears the last ex-Izal van (short wheelbase) had some white marking or branding filling the door panel that used to bear the Izal logo. Could this mean that some ex-Izal palvans got marked with the Ford branding similar to the earlier style used on the long wheelbase vans? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dw0qu3tWoAEV0h-.jpg

www.leightonlogs.org/Watfordcollision230175.htm “6M50 consisted of 17 pallet vans electrically hauled from Willesden by 85017 6M50 runs daily conveying car part in pallets or specially designed steel stillages loaded by fork lift truck into the wagons at Dagenham, after which the wagons are closed and sealed by company staff.” Interestingly the review mentions the wagons being sealed by wire at Ford Dagenham although I think this was a guideline doubt that it was followed in practice. The accident report concludes the same.

I’m not sure exactly but I know at least one of the trains switched off to AC traction upon reaching power. The Ford train involved in the Watford crash (I think a class 6) was hauled by an 85. There was 4M18 which ran through the WCML: https://flic.kr/p/qsKedV https://flic.kr/p/bXSHRo

I’ll start arranging for the printing stuff to happen when the wagon is closer to completion – not far off at all. I could do the solebar as part of the print, you could getaway with using a ‘Parkside Dundas’ kit for the brakegear bits – you would need the LMS clasp brake (for the lever and shaft) and the BR clasp brake (shoes and inner lever hangars). Not sure if there are W-irons that come with the kits. Auxiliary leaf springs can probably be gotten hold of from Rumney Models (?). Buffers and all I see a lot of nice castings for a variety of OLEO bits offered online, which could be used. Mine is eyeball work anyway and wouldn’t fare well with printing costs.