Evertrainz

Hopefully an easier question (!), is the just-visible object in the recess on the bulkhead a hotplate? Looks a little like the ones on the class 50s, being an English electric product and all.

Been a while, but other side. Still much to do but I'm happy with the progress so far. I am able to find pics of the cab of Class 81, 82, 84, and 85 online but for some reason, nothing on the 83 cabs. Is there a picture floating around of the cab interior that I've missed? Forgive me as it will look very similar to the other four locos' cabs but it would be helpful to get the specific positioning of the controls and all correct. Thanks Ron

This is what I was thinking more likely.. As mentioned, one large tank is as good as another, and with a large number of Stanier and Fairburn passenger tanks built, there was not much of a need for more. Considering how trains would get longer/cover more distance with electrification, and the Class 304s taking over suburban services, there wasn't a growing need for more of the tanks. I was just wondering, as they seemed to be found everywhere, although I can tell that the WCML was not a hotspot.

Hi all, how prominent (if any, at all) were the Riddles Standard 4 Tank on the WCML, near Manchester and Crewe? Pictures turn up nothing, only their regional Fairburn predecessors (makes sense - why would a region want more of a replica of their own loco design?) Some were allocated to Bletchley and Watford so may have been more common south.. Any insight would be helpful, assuming I haven't already answered my own question. Interestingly a lone 80034 was allocated to Crewe North upon delivery.

Thanks to some guidance from Clive M, I was able to see some more of the underframe details that were done away with when the AL3s were refurbished. Still some more to do but I'm happy so far.

I have also been working on sounds for all five roarers. Check them out at the link below. As per the real things, I have used a variety of audio clips from fans - box fans, an industrial fan, desk fans, etc. - to pitch and somehow create the original sounds. It was a hassle trying to find audio clips, usually scattered across Youtube, to base the recreations off, but I am happy with the result. Audio levels aren't perfect and neither is sound quality, the raw files have more bass in them but had to be compressed for upload. Included is fan run up, idle, and fan run down. Class 81 - https://soundcloud.com/user-893731854/81-master/s-8ZX22 Class 82 - https://soundcloud.com/user-893731854/82-master/s-skLgW Class 83 - https://soundcloud.com/user-893731854/83-master/s-75r3O Class 84 - https://soundcloud.com/user-893731854/84-master-1/s-VaTXl Class 85 - https://soundcloud.com/user-893731854/85-master/s-F9lAD

I've set out on a path to 3D-model all five early AC "roarers" so I thought instead of creating a new thread for each and every question I would just create a thread for the main purpose. First question, what were the external differences, if any, between the different number ranges of the Cl 83 / AL3? There was E3025 - 3035, E3303 - 3304, and E3100. Second question, were the cooling fans on the AC electrics changed upon refurb? Purely out of interest, as I am quite sure if they were as loud of roarers as their reputations hold then there had to have been some steps taken to quiet it down surely. Third question, is the angle of the lower front profile not slanted enough? It is still a work in progress but the complicated bogies are almost finished .

BD containers could be loaded into, as mentioned, Medfits and highfits but I don't think Lowfits were used. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/100419-lowfit/

The Rugby shots are amazing, I hadn't seen the first one with the type 2 in the background but that second shot is amongst my most favorite rail photos! AL1 takes over from Class 40 at Nuneaton around 3:30 mark. Judging from this video a very significant portion of trains was still led by the Type 4s. I think I'd read on another thread that sometimes loco changes were also done at Nuneaton to save Rugby from congestion. https://youtu.be/t7AvBeC-Q_U Answering my own question the Royal Scot was worked South by diesel under wires, at least in 1963. https://flic.kr/p/7r9rJJ

In the early 60s how common would loco changes be on the WCML? I've seen diesel—electric and vice versa, how about steam? When electrification was heading south towards Euston would there have been any cases where a "dead" electric was towed with a train south to London, then that train + dead electric piloted back north by diesel until it reached a live wire section? I'm getting the feeling crack trains such as the Royal Scot was full-diesel until electrification was officially completed til Euston.. Were there any other big named trains that went through a loco change then? Any double changes, where longer distance trains started on diesel, changed to electric, then went back to diesel? Understandably all I can seem to find pointers to loco changes on are trains to or from the Liverpool-Manchester-Birmingham area, but it would be interesting to say the least, to imagine a service that started from London til Northampton by EE type 4, then taken by an early electric to Manchester, then finished journey up north by steam.

All of them were converted from Period 2 Tourist opens, I mistakenly said third open. Out of curiousity, wre they fitted with Clayton boilers spared from other locos or would it be too early to see that? Looking at photos I can’t see any of these in use past 1962 so they were indeed phased out rapidly.

Hi all Interesting photo in Modern Locomotives Illustrated #191 shows E3046 in 1961 with a Manchester – Birmingham service. Right behind the loco is a mentioned “boiler van”, that heated the train due to lack of ETH stock The LMSCA states there were 23 (confirmed by searching departmentals.com) converted from ex LMS third opens, were there other conversions? Were the steam generators powered by ETH from the loco, or powered by diesel oil? When did operation start? When did it stop? How common would you think they were on early WCML expresses (in colder seasons obviously!) Is there a library or album hidden in the depths of Flickr that shows off the details of the roof and the large vent?

I didn't want to create a separate topic for this query, but does anyone recall what the Class 82 sounded like relative to the other first gen AC electrics ? I've had one person tell me that all the early electrics more or less sounded the same, but this is a question for someone who has a rather "tuned" ear. Please bear with me, I'm well aware of the craziness of this question! D&E on 35mm Vol 3 has a clip of an 82 but I'm afraid it sounds like the video was mixed with audio of a Class 86.

I have considered that, video of E3003 at a 1992 ELR event has a clip that shows off the Class 81’s horn sounding similar in tonality and pitch to the BRCW brother Class 33. Perhaps using that rationale a Hymek horn would work for the Class 82. The English Electric Class 83 may be a tougher case as the Cl 23, 37, 40, 55, etc. all seem to have different horns. According to account by another, the 82 actually had a horn with the tones triggered by two buttons, such that when both were held down it made a sound like a North American horn with multiple tones.

Thanks, that would be helpful. I’ve already got the Marsden and BR drawings for those two locos but they only give a very basic look at the main equipment only. And the different rake angles of the front of the cab of each class is interesting. I read on another thread that the rake angle is the same from the cab front up through the windscreen on the 84, while the windscreen lies at a steeper angle on other classes. I’ve got most of what I need to create the model and sounds for the early AC loco fleet, in hopes to cover the early 60s WCML scene. Good news is that the 85 is nearing completion. Bad news is that I can’t find any videos or audio clips of the Class 82 so I cannot recreate the blower sounds using a mic and my air purifier/box fans at home ! There atleast exist some videos of the Cl 84 as a loadbank unit, and 83009 on ECS duty at Euston. Using those I managed to use my “tools” to create a suitable sound for each. Hornsounds are something else to consider at this point. I’ve made a solid start on the bogies for the 83, and should be able to convert my 85 mesh to an 81 with some work. can’t find the thread that details the differences between Cl 81 and 85 but I think it included: - bogie frame limiters on bodysides - Sharp angle between bodyside and underside - no recess for grill panels/windows on both sides - Roof equipment changes? - sharper square-like corners for grill panels/windows EDIT: I found this audio CD which has an audio clip of 82004 on a flat wagon train,but the problem is that I do not have a CD player on hand. EDIT EDIT: Upon asking for an audio file purchase I was told that the 82 is coasting and the blowers are not running in the sound clip.

Does anyone know of publications that show the roof equipment between pantos of the Cl 83? Preferably also I would need roof pictures/drawings for the Class 82 and 84. The Model Locmotives Illustrated issue on AC electrics has very good drawings for the bodysides and front but doesn’r have much in terms of the roof drawings. Do the RS Carter/ Ian Beattie drawings detail the rooftop equipment well? Also any other sources of helpful pictures of these locos’ details would be appreciated.

Does anyone know if Guinness had depots or breweries that would have to be accessed via the WCML? Looking for an excuse to sneak these unique wagons in ;-) . Any publications with shots of these wagons in other traffic flows? I read on Mike Smith's site that these were used for access to Guinness depots far in places such as Plymouth or South Wales?

How so? I think that I'm doing fairly alright, here's a sample ply standard van which apart from the (soon-to-be corrected) typeface seems fairly accurate https://flic.kr/p/W8RFre . The deed has already been done, I thought I'd covered most variations (solebar-up) found in the 50s/early 60s era but the different font typefaces used has me revisiting this project. Apart from that the "ambition" has already been satisfied as I've finished the "big 4" wagons in the form of the basic 16T welded mineral, Standard brake, Standard van, and Conflat/containers. With the ever-so-confusing topic of lettering and inscriptions being the missing piece of the puzzle. Add the 'BR Paint Symbols' explained by Matt and it's only getting more confusing. I'm well aware of this and the final product will have the correct running gear. Thanks for pointing it out, as well as for the painted symbols. I assume this is another one of those things that varied right down to the painter. As for buying any books that will have to be saved for later on in the year as I'll be off to college in a few days. I apologize if this offends anyone who has spend much of their lives working on wagon books but: are there any online copies or "e-books" with good wagon info? Once again apologies if it comes off as blunt but sometimes the 10 to 20 pound shipping to America can be very off-putting and remains a main reason why I've avoided purchasing books. Those that I do own, which is the mentioned D. Rowland book and a copy of a magazine (which I solely bought as Paul Bartlett mentioned it had a Stove R branded for working with Condor) were shipped within America, so a less-than-$3 shipping cost.

Hi John, I seem to have forgotten to mention (!) that I’m creating wagons for railway simulation, ie V Scale. For this reason your sets of transfers, and pretty much any collaborative wagon parts or paints that I can swap out to get the most realistic and true-to-life model railway I am unable to use. Everything, from wheels to couplers to lettering to paint, has to be created in a 3D modeling program or image editor by me. All I’d do is plug in the font that I’d find to be a good fit in an image editor, and this would be added onto the texture. https://flic.kr/p/28nNCjk As for a trip to the NRM - or local preserved line - or even local train hobby shop - not happening as none of those are realistically possible for me here in America. It’s certainly been a challenge trying to get into this hobby with such little local resources, never mind the fact I’ve never seen a British train in my life! Along those lines shipping costs for books is also a massive pain, I’ve only got the Don Rowland book which has proved to be very valuable. Have you any suggestions for books that have good details and pictures of 50/60s condition wagons?

Hi Matt For the time being I have just been scanning close-ups of the wagon lettering I've found on Flickr and plugging them into a font-identifier website which then pulls up the closest match. On the first Vanfit in your post we can see the "compressed" letters as John noted squished to make it fit in the small space. But more interesting to me now, after realizing one single typeface is certainly not going to work out, is the different markings on those two Vanfits in your post. I didn't know that Standard 12T vans had such markings? Or were they added by the preservation groups? I know Meat/Ale, Shoc, Fruit, and maybe Banana vans of BR design had such markings but on a Standard van? Also interesting is the "western" below the number on that Shocvan. What is the 'L' below the tare weight on the shot from 'Snow'? So many questions now...

Hi John, from the start I was well aware I wouldn't be able to cover every single variation in text ever made! But what I didn't know was that painters didn't care to stick with Gill Sans or a variation of. So quite literally: any typeface/font that looks appropriate would work without much complaining, much like the mindset of a painter.. Regards Ron

In short, this saves me a lot of hassle trying to stretch/thicken/thin the existing Gill Sans MT, but I've found a decent alternative that goes by the name 'Railway' which I'm sure most people have or have heard of. Paul - does that mean for the earlier BR days Gill Sans was not a set standard? I've been looking through Flickr galleries to find examples of different lettering and inscriptions on wagons, as well as get a closer look at the typeface used. The '9' looks different, I have a feeling this one was a stencil job: https://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/4196720631/in/faves-125881805@N02/ Which railway's typeface? https://www.flickr.com/photos/143906024@N05/30689145934/in/faves-125881805@N02/ Looks like a compressed Gill Sans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323628584/in/faves-125881805@N02/ LNER Font? https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/39323629354/in/faves-125881805@N02/ Stencil font on the Vanfit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8557040322/in/faves-125881805@N02/ A very strange font on the Medfit to the right: https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/26272931472/in/faves-125881805@N02/

I'm also interested in inscriptions on wagons/containers, such as those noting the wagon type or purpose/specific workings. Such as "FRUIT" or "VANFIT" or "MEAT", are there any obscure markings on wagons? I'm certain that the iconic "REPLACE CHAIN POCKET LIDS" can't be forgotten, nor can the "TO WORK BETWEEN ABERDEEN AND KINGS CROSS". The latter I believe I've seen with an "ONLY" added to the end, add that to the fact they've been on the left, center, and right of the Blue Spot fish vans, and have been seen in white color backed with black patch. Some others I can think of are SHOCK, INSUL-MEAT, and "load only on conflat". ALE, MEDFIT, LOWFIT, and HYBAR. Any others? "RETURN TO ______" ?

I'm aware that the lettering on wagons of the early 50s, through mid-60s when the new panels came in, are noted as Gill Sans. But I see other types of typefaces, of varying thickness and compression used which seems rather random. Also some typefaces used that stemmed from LNER/LMS apparently? Does anyone know what fonts other were used for the lettering? The weight really varies, as does the spacing but is it ALL Gill Sans? For an example I tried to line up a picture of the Fox Transfers BRITISH RAILWAYS transfer with a typed Gill Sans version, and the former is certainly thicker and slightly different. And different shots show different levels of compression as well. Such other fonts include those where there are military-like cuts and spaces between the linear parts of the letter "E". I'd appreciate any help on the fonts, they to me are just as important as liveries. I find the various inscriptions on wagons intriguing, as well as the placement on the wagon/van. Thanks and regards Ron

Does anyone know of any pictures of diesel power working the Aberdeen fish runs? This post makes me wonder how often diesels were used in the early days on the Aberdeen - KX train. The Blood and Custard site reports "train examined and locomotive change - type 4 diesel in December 1963" at Edinburgh Waverley.