hexagon789

The Mk2e coaches were not hauled by Deltics in service. They are electrically incompatible, as Pathfinder found out on a tour I was on a few years back. The Mk2d coaches were mostly confined to the ER, and only the handful allocated to other regions would find themselves mixed into Mk2e/f sets.

From what I recall it was to do with how the ETS was supplied by Deltics. When driver's cut back on the power handle it caused the ETS voltage to drop which resulted in the Mk2 air-cons Motor Alternator sets tripping out. The Mk2ds and Mk2fs used on the Eastern Region were fitted with I think a specific type of MA set to cure the 'tripping out' but Deltics remained unable to work with ALL Mk2e and certain Mk2fs.

 

I think this also applied to the first ETH 47s - 47401-420 as well.

I believe DRS are contracted to perform "Thunderbird" duties for Virgin, I'm not sure if any other companies have Dellner-coupler fitted 57s anyway.

From railcar.co.uk:

 

"The combined fleet was made up into seventeen typically mixed 4-car sets, plenty to cover the twelve diagrams. An example set formation in 1980 could be: Cl 123 DMBS; Cl 124 MBS; Cl 123 TC ; and a Cl 124 DMC. In a formation like this with three power cars they had almost 9hp/ton, or if only two then it was 6.3hp/ton.

 

In '81 the engine removal scheme began, although this did not have any effect on timings.

 

The Hull - Leeds - Manchester trains were withdrawn in Oct. '81.

 

Around the same time the sets were reformed to eliminate where possible mixed power car sets, which also avoided too many sets having two brake vans and a loss in seating capacity. They were now formed of: nine Cl 123 (DMBS, TC, Cl 124 TS, DMS) giving 24 1st + 196 2nd class seats; five Cl 124 (DMS, TBS, Cl 123 TS, DMC); a unique Cl 124 set in which the Cl 123 TS was a downgraded TC, these six sets gave 30 1st + 196 2nd class seats; and two Cl 124 (DMC, 2x TBS, DMC) which each gave 30 1st + 180 2nd class seats."

 

So it would appear that there was a basic couple of formations which were made up to give a certain level of capacity in each class.

That train I mentioned is given nine minutes to get from Elmswell to Stow so I doubt the variations in performance are a major factor in on time running.

Even if line speed permitted it (unlikely, I think it's 90 max) I shouldn't think a 170 could get up to a ton before Drive has to apply the brakes for Haughley Junction.

 

C6T.

Takes a good four and a quarter minutes for a 170 to reach a ton from a stand.

See post #4

Forgive me, I can't believe I missed that! I even remember seeing the photograph.

Someone's finger's slipped here : No.6102 was a purpose-built Driving Trailer - the former Saloon in question became 6402 : I have a couple of slides of it at Kildare in 2008 but I've no idea how much longer it survived.

Indeed, I seem to have copied the typo, time of night and all .

 

6101-05 were the Driving Brake Generator Standard Mk3 Push-pull Control Cars, 6402 was the unique push-pull buffet. 6105 and 6402 are both preserved.

It's quite telling that if my morning commute is a 156/170 vice the allox 153, by Stowmarket from Cambridge it will often arrive maybe a couple of minutes early and incur dwell time.

I think it's less to do with max permitted speed of the respective units, rather the acceleration is slightly better and most importantly, the ingress and egress of passengers is more rapidly undertaken on the multiple coach units, especially when cycles/pushchairs are involved.

 

C6T.

Not sure about 153s but a 156 will out accelerate a 170 to 60mph (0-60 t the besr part of 2 mins in a 170), 170s have quite poor lower speed acceleration to the point that they will only better a 158 on routes with significant 100mph stretches.

 

I agree that station dwells are handled far better by 170s though with the 1/3-2/3 door arrangement.

Pretty certain never made Swallow as it was exported to Ireland and converted into thr push pull buffet 6102 - almost identical to the WSMR buffet/ kitchen conversions.

 

 

I believe that IÉ obtained what became 6102 from GNER in 2004, it being converted to a buffet (branded Café Bar), for use in a Waterford line Mk3 push-pull set.

 

It is entirely possible it didn't receive Swallow, but I would've thought it would have as if it remained in the UK until 2004, unless I've got my dates wrong.

I recently took a trip from Peterborough to Ipswich and given its light loading on both outbound and return journeys, a 100 mph 2 car Class 170 is diagrammed for these services. I was wondering if a Class 153 would not have been better used or are they diagrammed for Ipswich-Felixstowe and other similar branch line services?

There is some 85/90/100 mph running from Ipswich to Stowmarket which presumably requires a 170 in order to keep time.

 

The Felixstowe branch is I believe normally operated solely by 153s, working singly off-peak. Other Greater Anglia 153s seem to run on the Wherry Lines often as 2-car sets mingling with 156s, though 170s of 2 and 3-car do operate certain Norwich-Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth services (some are booked for First Class accomodation) and I think do work to Cromer and Sheringham as well.

While the Electric Train Supply may be supplied by seperate windings on the alternator, it does still place a significant power load on the enging driving it, to the extent that the engine supplying ETS 'idles' at Notch 2 revs. Hence why it can be heard which engine is supplying the ETS.

 

Although it's normal practice to run with ETS on the rear engine (with very good reason but that's another story), the ETS load is such that in event of a fault where an engine is unable to supply traction power but is still running, then it's standard practice for the ETS to be supplied from that engine if possible.

And yes, there is a significant performance difference between a set with one engine suppying ETS only, and a set with only one engine running and supplying both traction power and ETS.

 

 

I find the VP185 engined power cars hired in from EMT to be extreamly noisy, especially when standing idling in Kings X, you'd think they were running flat out!

 

If I can be permitted to stray back briefly to the OP, lol, although not in passenger service, what engines do NR's NMT power cars have?

The NMT power cars have MTU engines, the power cars were all re-engined between 2009-10.

 

I believe Grand Central had the last Valenta-engined power cars in passenger service, the last being re-engined in 2010 IIRC.

Not what the 170 Traction manual states

From experience I can say that 75 mph Sprinters changeover at 45, 90 mph 158/159s at 57, 100 mph 175s at 60 and 100 mph 170s at 70.

 

I can only assume the Traction manual has for some reason mixed the T211rzze transmission with the T211r fitted to 75 mph Sprinters. If a 170 changed over at 45, there us no way it would manage 100 mph, at 2,100 rpm (maximum engine speed), it would only be doing about 75 mph. The reason why the transmissions changeover at different speeds for different top speeds is so that the direct drive or fluid coupling gives a greater speed at maximum revs.

And in Scotland, 170/4s are starting to become debranded. As the first HST sets replace 170s and 158s on Glasgow - Aberdeen and Edinburgh - Aberdeen trains in the coming weeks, Northern will get the redundant 170s.

 

A9E7E49C-E3CB-4F59-8915-4FBA4675FBF5.jpeg

 

Edit: just an afterthought, I assume Northern will declassify the first class these units had?

The plan is for 2+4 sets to replace 170s on Edinburgh-Aberdeen firstly, then those will be replaced by 2+5 sets with the 2+4s cascaded to Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness. Glasgow to Aberdeen will be the last of the main InterCity routes to get HSTs, though some Aberdeen-Inverness internals will also be HSTs presumably once all the sets are in service.

 

Yes, Northern don't offer First Class accommodation so I'm pretty sure the First Class areas in the 170/4s will be declassified.

The 170 is on a torque converter up to 45mph then a fluid coupling after that. So full throttle from 10mph + is a bit sloppy.

I think you are thinking of 75 mph Sprinters which changeover at 45 mph; 170s switch to the fluid coupling at 70 mph.

 

Off-3-5-7 seems the normal technique ScotRail drivers employ, though I have noticed varying techniques from different TOCs though. I believe that applying full power from a stand (the original method employed) was discovered to waste fuel and generate a lot of waste heat for little noticeable improvement in acceleration below about 10-15 mph.

Frankly, it is a waste of units set up for interurban work. The class 170s are 100mph units and their hydraulic transmissions operate at their optimum above 70mph. Bit like putting a deltic on a Settle and Carlise job really. Trouble is, until the 195s are commissioned the 170s are the newest NT DMUs and will be sent to their interior optimum rather their performance optimum.

I'm not sure how accurate it is, but I've heard it said that the 170s also have some sort of power-limiting feature meaning that only half-power is obtained even on full throttle (Notch 7) until a speed of about 30 mph has been attained.

 

If that's correct I imagine using them on stopping services must be a bit problematic, certainly they seem quite sluggish at lower speeds compared to say 156s or 158s but quite adept at picking up their heels and cruising at higher speeds.

From what I understand, ScotRail will be retaining the 365s even after the full introduction of the 385s, the 365s being considered for use on the Edinburgh-North Berwick/Dunbar services.

It seems that they are now going to be used on Stirling/Alloa/Dunblane services once all the 4-car 385s have entered service on the Edinburgh & Glasgow. ScotRail have them leased until May 2019 at the very least anyway.

 

I imagine 4-cars will be very welcome on these services considering many are only two-car 156/158s or a three-car 170 at best for much of the day, and from experience they can get quite busy at times, even off-peak.

Northern have obtained ex-ScotRail 3-car 170/4 for use on, I believe, Leeds-York via Harrogate and Leeds-Southport via Manchester Victoria.

 

They have 10 at present and are due 6 another eventually. A total of 27 units of Classes 156 (5 units), 158 (6 units) and 170 (16 units) are supposed to transfer from ScotRail overall.

Hi again,

 

I've now had the chance to travel in a few more of these units. There's a marked difference in ride quality depending on where you sit; the first class sections (very front and rear) seem to be above a bogie, and have a much rougher quality whereas the middle of the coach seems to be fairly smooth. The latter seems to be the case even when at high speed.

 

If all goes to plan they will disappear soon enough as the 385s are due to come on stream from Tuesday.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Alex.

From what I understand, ScotRail will be retaining the 365s even after the full introduction of the 385s, the 365s being considered for use on the Edinburgh-North Berwick/Dunbar services.

These were before my time.

(My decade of spotting and being into the railways in a big way was 1980 to 1990)

 

I know nothing about them.

I had a quick skim read through this

http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/blue-pullman/rundown-withdrawal

 

They are fine looking train. It seems like they did not last long. Why were they withdrawn?

Effectively in service for 13 years. As I understand it they were withdrawn for a variety of reasons:

 

1. 90 mph top speed, perhaps not a great hindrance, but the GWML had returned to 100 mph running officially by the early 70's.

2. Rather unique, only 2 six- and 3 eight-car sets were built, and I believe parts were becoming difficult to obtain.

3. Poor ride quality

4. Decline in the Pullman service - passengers could get as comfortable, arguably better comfort in the newly emerging Mk2 air-cons, and passengers were increasingly less willing to pay a supplement to travel in such trains, I believe similar reasons eventually killed off the other Pullman services on other regions.

What air brake loco? When the Pullman sets were introduced there were no air brake locos on the WR (apart from straight air brakes on the loco bogies).

 

The emergency instructions only mention a brake pipe (within the train, no mention of a reservoir pipe), and of course the BR 2-pipe system didn't exist then anyway). Without delving out the full Instructions I can't be sure if they had EP brakes.

 

The location of the photo in the OP is very clearly just east of Westbury Lane Bridge, Purley (from which bridge the photo was obviously) taken and the train is on the Down Main Line. Giveaways are the location cabinets in the 10 foot and the two bridges in the background - the nearer one carrying Winston Way and the further carrying Purley Lane. The topography and juxtaposition of the bridges, and their type, is totally different from Sonning Cutting and there were never any location cabinets in what should have been the 10 foot in Sonning Cutting.

The Blue Pullman's had the same EP/Auto Air braking system as the Southern Region DEMUs with one key difference - it was two-stage. At speeds of over 30 mph the "high-speed" brake cane into force with the brake cylinder pressure automatically increased to compensate for the poorer braking performance of tread brakes at higher speeds.

The ex-GC trailers are all effectively HST trailers now in terms of couplings and Electric Train Supply, the former LHCS Mk3s were converted to make them into HST trailers.

 

The sets are formed as 2+6. GC had them as DM-TF-TRSB-TSD-TS-TS-TF*-DM (*declassified). EMT has swapped the GC TRSB for off-lease ex-GWR TRFB, these being the same buffet type as in EMT's other sets, they have also changed the disabled accommodation from being in a TS to being in a TF, again as per their other HST sets, thus the sets are now formed:

 

DM-TFD-TRFB-TS (ex-TF)-TS-TS-TS-DM

I was under the impression that the MTU engines were rated at 2250hp as per the Valentas due to concerns about the alternator/rectifier rating. Those concerns stemming from 43169's rectifier going up in smoke during the trials of the MB190 configured at 2400hp.

You are correct, while capable of producing 2,700hp, the MTUs are down-rated to 2,250 for use in the HST sets. Besides even if they were still 2,700hp, the electrics couldn't take it and the traction motors are unchanged so you wouldn't get any more power-at-rail anyway.

I was recently told by someone that the Arosa line has some sections with speed limits of 33 km/h, the maximum for the route being 35 km/h.

 

Does anyone know why there are 33 km/h sections when, as far as I'm aware, the rest of the Swiss network generally operates in 5 km/h increments. Just seems an odd figure really.

 

Regards, B

No, what I meant was, are DVT's derived from the International train, or are they derived from Mk3's?

They are derived from the Mk3s being fitted into the Mk3b batch of loco-hauled coaching stock. I believe the actual design was intended to look in keeping with either Mk3 or Mk2f stock seeing as they originally operated with sets formed of either stock on the WCML.

I don't believe the DVT featured in the International Train, that had it's own brake vehicle along the lines of the BFOs IIRC

It had a BFK with compartments and I believe a conference compartment as well. The Mk3 "Internationals" ended up in Ireland and only the BFK wasn't refurbished and used in service, it being kept for spares though IÉ did consider re-building it as a driving trailer the coaches being push-pull ready.

maybe 100mph was allowed for the 47/7s but only; 1) on the E-G, and 2)as long as they had an enhanced maintenance schedule (which I presume they did)?

Can't remember if it's been mentioned previously but did Scotland even have any other 100mph lines (for LH trains)?

There were 100 mph sections for part of the Glasgow-Aberdeen line running some/all of the sections between Larbert-Stirling, Gleneagles-Perth, Dundee-Arbroath and Laurencekirk-Stonehaven more or less as now.

 

I think they were first introduced for the HSTs.