hexagon789

I thought they were having sliding doors fitted?

The image of the doors looks like they are electric-plug doors, identical to those the Class 442 EMUs have. All that the text on the subject of the doors/vestibules states is: "The existing emergency egress light shall be retained. The vestibule will be painted including walls, gangway doors, ceilings, and any retained grab poles. The existing bin assembly will be retained. New electric power-operated exterior doors will be fitted."

No disabled in first class?

No, though there isn't currently wheelchair provision in First Class on either the 158s or 170s, so I assume Abellio couldn't be bothered to change this arrangement with the HSTs.

Further to my earlier post on the formations of the Scotrail HST sets, which was a bit of a guess based on the Franchise Agreement, I can now confirm the official formations/seating capacities as follows. There has been a change in the number of four and five-car sets. Originally there was to be 14 four-car and 13 five-car sets, this has been altered to 17 five-car and 9 four-car sets.

Five-car sets will seat 32 First (4 priority) and 280 Standard (32 priority) passengers and the four-car sets will seat the same number of First Class passengers but 206 (24 priority) in Standard.

Five-car sets will be formed: DM-TFC-TSD-TSB-TS-TS-DM

Four-car sets will be formed: DM-TFC-TSD-TSB-TS-DM

Vehicle details are as follows:

DM (Driving Motor): Power Car, space for 3 cycles*

TFC (Trailer First Catering) Coach A: 32 First, catering provision (consists of serving counter with micro-galley and a self-service drinks machine), crew compartment and one toilet

TSD (Trailer Standard Disabled) Coach B: 58 Std (and 2 wheelchair places), wheelchair accessible/baby change toilet

TSB (Trailer Standard Bicycle) Coach C: 74 Standard, space for 2 cycles*, no toilet

TS (Trailer Standard) Coach D and where present E: 74 Standard, one toilet

*due to dwell times bicycle storage in the power cars will only be available to passengers travelling the full journey, e.g. Glasgow-Aberdeen, customers boarding/alighting at intermediate stations will be required to use the cycle storage space in the TSB.

Additionally ALL exterior doors will be replaced with single-leaf electric plug doors which will be fitted with a traction/brake interlock.

All toilets available for passenger use will be of a vacuum CET type.

Seats in standard class will be of the Grammer type, identical to those fitted to the Inverness-based 158s, while in First the existing leather seats, carpets and curtains will be retained.

In normal service both power cars will provide traction power at their current rating of 1,770 hp at rail and the ATP equipment will be isolated but left in situ.

A new Passenger Information System will be fitted, this will be the same as that fitted to the refurbished Class 156 units.

Thanks Dunedin for the really comprehensive explanation of the Class 47/7's push-pull system, I've never been able to ascertain much more than the fact that the DBSOs were equipped with an EMU-style power controller, so the information above is very interesting to me. Thanks also to Colin for the info about the signalling employed, I thought a mixture would be the case but as you see plenty of semaphores on the route even today I wasn't to sure. I think I'll go for colour lights for the distants and semaphores for the home signals. Thanks again to all of you, you've all been immensely helpful! ☺

Thanks for the information, hope tomorrow goes well for both of you. ☺

Thank you, for the link to the video Waverley, I think I spotted 3 Mk2 push-pull sets in it, all different and several other loco-hauled formations, very enjoyable watching! Thanks, Flood for the additional information and best wishes for Mickleover.  Tomorrow isn't it? I'm afraid I have yet another question - I really am getting bad for this! There were 7 MK2d TSO(T) dedicated to the Mk2 push-pull sets, of these 6 were painted in ScotRail livery and one (no. 6607) retained blue/grey, does any one have/know the numbers of the six that were painted into ScotRail livery as I can only find the numbers of 5, thanks.

Should also say thanks if anyone can answer any of these questions, regards Ben.

Again, thanks for the replies. I had thought the Class 47's power controllers were set up with just an initial notch and a continuous range as per the Class 20s and 37s, but I was told by someone that they had eight notch controllers. I've just received a copy of the Spring 1986 Platform 5 coaching stock book and while this has helped with some issues with coaching stock it has raised a few more questions that someone might be able to answer.

1. The book lists 5 Mk2fs as being at Craigentinny, were any of these used in the push-pull sets? I had though Craigentinny had an allocation of 5 Mk2z TSOs, 12 Mk2d TSOs, 7 Mk2d TSO(T), 4 Mk2e FO, 1 Mk2f FO and 2 Mk2a FK for use in the Mk2 push-pull sets, with all bar the two Mk2a FKs and one of the TSO(T)s in ScotRail livery. If this is correct then which of the Mk2fs was painted into ScotRail livery, the book lists all five as being in blue/grey.

2. The book lists one Mk2z FK but no Mk2a FKs at Cragentinny in Spring '86 so did the Mk2a FKs come from elsewhere and if so when did they arrive at Craigentinny for use in the push-pull and what were their numbers.

3. The book lists the Mk3a COs as having 23 First and 38 Second Class seats, however the BR diagram for the interior layouts gives a capacity of 24 First, 37 Second - therefore which is correct?

I know these are pretty trivial questions, particularly the last one but I'd still be grateful if anyone could answer them. It'll bother me no end if I know I've got one too many First Class seats in my COs and one two few Second Class ones!

Thanks to all of you for the very detailed and helpful replies. ☺ Hopefully, after buying a few more bits and bobs, I'll be able to begin construction of my layout.

Yes I did, I actually got most of the information about the formations of the push-pull sets from this site. After searching through Google, railforums.co.uk, this site and others I have yet to find answers to any of my questions above, though.

I am currently in the process of researching the Mk3 and Mk2 push-pull sets as used by BR ScotRail in the 1980s for a layout idea based somewhere on the Stirling-Perth section of the Scottish Central railway. While I have been able to find the formations for the push-pull sets, I have been unable to answer some questions about the actual, physical operation of the push-pull sets. I apologise if firstly this topic is under the wrong category, there are quite a few and prototype questions seemed the best choice to me, secondly sorry if any of the following questions have been answered before, if they have been if you could possibly direct me to the relevant thread that would be great. If anyone can answer even just one of my questions I will be very grateful.

1. I know that the Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull rakes contained a Mk2d TSO(T) within their formation, however I believe that two out and back services from Glasgow to Aberdeen used the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets, therefore did these two diagrams have no catering or was a simple at-seat trolley provided?

2. Does anyone know what the calling points of the push-pull sets on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs were? I have the 1980-81 Scottish Region timetable and it gives all the Glasgow-Aberdeen as calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen. These generally took 2hrs 55mins to Aberdeen, however while I don't have any timetables for 1985-90 I found a diagram of the push-pull runs from 1986-90 and these give a journey time of 2hrs 48mins, so was the 7 min saving down to fewer calling points, increased speed limits or some other reason?

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

4. Did the Mk2z coaches retained by the Scottish Region from the Class 27 push-pull sets retain their disc-braked B4 bogies or did they all lose them to the initial batch of Mk2f DBSO conversions?

5. Were the tread braked Mk2f DBSOs allowed in Mk3 push-pull rakes or were the disc-braked ones mandated?

6. How were the power controllers in the DBSOs set up? I believe I read somewhere (wish I could remember where!) that they were fitted with standard EMU-style power controllers, this would suggest 4 power notches. However, I thought the Class 47s had 8 notch power controllers so did this mean that if driving from the DBSO the driver could only select notches 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the Shove Duff?

7. Which other services/formations would one have seen between Stirling and Perth (and stations in between) from about 1985-1989? I think that the Inverness trains were usually formed of Mk2c stock, but what operated services such as Dunblane, Dundee and Arbroath (?) stoppers? Were these all DMU operated or loco-hauled or a mix of the two?

8. Was all/most of the signalling between Stirling and Perth semaphore signalling or were there some colour lights then as well?

Any information greatly would be received, if you can answer any of my rather long-winded questions above I would just like to say thank you in advance. Oh, and apologies if I've worded any of my questions rather poorly as well!

I've just come across your layout while researching the ScotRail push-pull sets of the 1980s for a layout idea. It looks highly interesting, especially those mixed push-pull rakes with the magnificent Shove Duffs. The attention to detail is second to none, about the best of any layout I've seen and God knows how many I've seen at Model Rail Scotland and other exhibitions over the years. Hopefully I'll get to see it in the flesh at an exhibition some time! ☺

I don't think they will. I think they will retain their 2,250hp engines and 1,770hp at rail. Part of the reason for introducing HSTs is their superior acceleration to a Class 170. A commitment to reduce InterCity timings, Glasgow-Inverness by 13 mins on average for instance, suggests that the won't be derated.

I know it's a bit late and all, but if anyone is still interested in the formations for the forthcoming ScotRail fleet of HSTs then this is the best I can make out from the ScotRail Franchise agreement. From December 2018 until December 2021 there will be 14 2+4 and 13 2+5 sets. From December 2022 until December 2025 there will be 13 2+4, 12 2+5 and 2 2+6 sets which suggest that one of each of the 2+4 and 2+5 sets will be reformed. The capacities are:

2+4 - 202 Std, 232 total seats

2+5 - 276 Std, 306 total

2+6 - 350 Std, 380 total.

This suggests that each set will have one vehicle of 30 First Class seats, possibly similar to the buffet cars used by Chiltern which contain a buffet, 30 'Business Zone' seats and an accessible toilet.

From the differences between the total seating of each set it would appear that the normal standard class trailers will seat 74 passengers and the other standard class vehicle (presumably the TGS) will seat 54, as this is a reduction in the usual 65 in VTECs and GWRs TGS vehicles it seems likely that this vehicle will also contain an accessible toilet and space for wheelchairs.

The set formations would thus appear to be:

2+4 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TGS-DM

2+5 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DM

2+6 sets: DM-TRFB-TS-TS-TS-TS-TGS-DM

Hope this helps! ☺