Ken.W

Phil, Yeah well there's a lot in what you say there, just your previous post seemed to justify that position, and did include the TOC where it was a case for them of take what we're giving you. And the ECML does still need proper provision for long distance travel

Not only have I worked long distance IC trains for, as said earlier, the past 30 years, this was on the trains which are actually being discussed here, so yes I do know something about them. And I'm not talking of 20 years ago either, what I was talking about with the luggage check-in's what's still been happening while we still have the HST / Mk4 sets! Also, as I said previously, many passengers on shorter journeys on the northern section do use XC / TPE, so yes, they are on XC trains, the problem with them being as they run half size trains there isn't room for either passengers or luggage, and I know many who wouldn't even consider XC for any sort of long journey. As for more stops and few limited stop trains, I'd suggest looking at an LNER timetable before quoting that to me. As I said, the London - Edinburgh service is mostly half-hourly through the day, and it is as far as Newcastle throughout the day. The Hourly service in this is, from London, generally first stop York - a two hour run, then just Darlington, Newcastle, and sometimes Berwick to Edinburgh, a four and half hour journey, so not mostly for short journeys, and passengers traveling that far do tend to need to take luggage. And as I said previously, the fares encourage many making shorter journeys north of York to use other services. So, back to my earlier question about all the luggage that is carried in the vans on ECML trains Do you really want all that luggage piled up in the coaches, or would you rather see the passengers reverting to air or motorway travel? Just because that's the modern way doesn't mean it's automatically better as some seem to think. Yes the trains need room for the passengers, but those passengers also need room for the luggage they need to take, or are they carrying it for fun? And when they find they can't take their luggage with them on the train, will they just go without it? No, they'll go by some other way instead where they can.

From what I heard, and from the same source as on the 800; The set's thought to be basically undamaged, and in negotiation with the ROSCO, is awaiting a full examination if it's wanted for further use elsewhere. The rear power car needs a replacement cab, a relatively straight forward job. Otherwise again relatively undamaged and awaiting a decision on whether it's wanted elsewhere. It was said to be destined for the MML, so I'd presume was one of the one's in better overall condition otherwise.

Not on East Coast, and yes London - Edinburgh, and beyond, would be more like the Devon/Cornwall services than London - Bristol. Though the London - Yorkshire services may be more like the Bristols, the sets on those aren't on separate diagrams but work cyclic diagrams covering main ECML services too, often necessary for platform availability / turn-round times at KX. Yes that's the way the DaFT wanted to go if you prefer a railway run by them, the TOC however had to take what they were given! And yes it's long distance travelers that lose out, or more likely, will go by air / motorway when they find they can't take their luggage on the train. This the sort of railway you want? Not on EC, there's still a large volume of long-distance travel. Why do you think Edinburgh - London's now a half-hourly service during most of the day? Or Virgin, when they were in charge were specifically targeting Edinburgh - London travel? For shorter distance journeys many use XC / TPE etc that offer cheaper fares for such journeys. Yes, I was talking of London centric IC trains, on the ECML in particular, which is what these things are actually operating on, and I was writing, as you'll see, from 42 years experience, the last 30 of which on InterCity and all it's ECML successor's. There's been many a time, at a station stop wanting to go and use the toilet, it's been impossible to get through the van for luggage. Do you really want all that luggage piled up in the coaches, or rather see the passengers reverting to air or motorway travel?

Though in a situation such as you quoted at Cannon Street, entering a terminal platform, there would be some who'd be standing in that area Other than those that've read this thread

Really?? I can assure you that they DO work as used on East Coast services! At busy times like holiday periods, bank holidays, etc, a luggage check in service is operated at Kings X and Edinburgh. Large luggage for the destination station are taken and checked in, given a tag label, as passengers enter the platform, and stowed in the van. The luggage is in a locked van during the journey, not in an open rack at the coach ends next to the exit door (handily placed for the luggage thieves) - with large items you don't 'have them with you' at your seat even if they are in the coach with you, unless of course you're one of those who block the isle with them. At destination the vans unloaded, plenty of time there, and passengers reclaim their luggage with their tags. When this service is operating, the van ends up being full, even on a Mk4 with the DVT, you really want this amount of extra luggage in the coaches with you? Luggage space in the coaches is freed so there's actually some for passengers at intermediate stations, so time's actually saved as there's fewer passengers looking around when boarding with nowhere to stow their luggage. For through trains north of Edinburgh, the service is also provided for the destination / originating station, and they generally have around a 10 stop in Edinburgh which provides sufficient time for the Edinburgh luggage to be handled. You "can assure me the present traveling public won't use a van.. unless they're forced to"? Well let me assure you that if you look you'll see them actually queuing up to use this service!! The van area's also well used at other times. The bike racks are often too, and a Mk4 DVT can take 6. There's often also other large items carried unsuitable to go in the coach. Presumably though you'd prefer to be in the alternative, on an 80x with luggage racks designed to take cases so large as to become potential lethal missiles in an incident at speed even as low happened here. Or have isles so full of luggage the catering trolley can't get through, or even, as has happened on 800s as they're so short on luggage space, the gangway between vehicles actually blocked with luggage, so you can't even go to the trolley / buffet to get your own? But oh, of coarse that's something else we're told the 'modern passenger' doesn't want to do either, so I presume you'll have no complaints when the catering's withdrawn as it isn't / can't be used? Remember, these things are supposed to be long-distance 'Inter-city' trains which need to regularly cater for passengers with large amounts of luggage, they're not operating commuter 'pack as many in as you can' services!

Hi Jim, I see that you've seen the size of some of the cases that some think appropriate to store in overhead racks then, some of them would be dangerous just falling off never mind on become missiles in an accident. Another possible issue with the 80x's. With there lack of luggage room and not "wasting space" having a van area that they can squeeze even more seats in, even medium sized cases are meant to go on the overhead racks.

The use of fixed bar couplings probably has more to do with saving costs and weight, as they operate in fixed sets with no need to uncouple vehicles. I believe some other modern fixed formation trains, of shorter vehicles, also use similar systems. Also operational convenience, as they're classed as permanently coupled it exempts them from the rule prohibiting running with the brake isolated on the leading or trailing vehicle

As the HST was moving in the same direction at 5mph, actually only a 9mph collision (From the RAIB statement). It also means it didn't hit a stationary or 'solid' obstruction - Such as a train standing with it's brakes on, or buffer stops. Yes, from what I was told it's the coach bodies, bogies, running gear, and couplings. Power, traction equipment, and interiors etc to be striped out, transported back, and used to fit out the new set. Apparently, they're going to Wolverton to be stripped / scrapped so as not to interfere with ongoing construction. Well yes, after 42 years service I'm well aware to be dubious of depot gossip. This did however come from an LNER driver I know to be trustworthy not to embellish things, and who had himself been talking directly with someone... somewhat much more senior (Sorry but can't say more in public) The movement was made overnight and at very low speed so as not to present a risk. Use of a wheelskate would mean a restriction, IIRC, of something like 15mph on plain line and 5mph through points and crossings. As above, and I should add that they're going to Wolverton by road.

Like all statistics, it depends how you look at the numbers... 300hp may not look a big difference at first, but it's actually around 17.5%, so is quite a large difference, and for locos of around the same weight. Also to be borne in mind, that's the difference in engine output, auxiliaries on the two types will probably be similar, so the difference in power would be solely in traction power, making the gap here even wider. In comparing a pair of 31s with a single 47, a 500hp or 18% increase in power, but for double the weight, and also double the auxiliaries load so not actually so much increase in traction power. As to the difference between the two, the 31 was good for what it was intended for, light work, and had a comfortable cab environment compared to most locos of it's time. The main problem was they were often overloaded on unsuitable work. The 37 on the other hand, was commonly said it would pull the station as well as the train if you tied it on! One incident I remember, and which actually involved a (rare) failure on one... At Gateshead, we had a turn with a 37 on the Grangemouth tanks, about 900 tons of them, which we relieved in at Waverley and worked back to Newcastle. I was secondman on this several times. It usually, with taking a run at it, got over the top of Cockburnspath at around 20mph... This particular night, unknown to us, it had been brought in from Grangemouth with the (manual) radiator shutters closed. Naturally it wasn't long before it boiled dry, and we came to a stand at Innerwick, when the low water level switch, switched off the engine. No alternative but to call for assistance. No Problem, the signaler had a down freight in the loop at Grantshouse, he'd get him to leave his train in there and come forward to assist us. After a short wait then, we see the lights of the assisting engine approaching the emergency crossovers just ahead of us and, to our dismay, realize it's just another 37. So, he comes in on top, gets tied on etc and we're ready to go... But, as well as the 900 ton of tanks we now also have another 100 ton of now dead 37 behind us, and with a standing start from Innerwick, which is... virtually right at the foot of Cockburnspath bank!! No trouble, our relief 37 was still doing 20 at the top!!

It's highly unlikely to happen anyway, it seemed quite easy to adapt to the single combined controller; The standard two handled controller arrangements; Right hand, Power control, pull back to apply power, push forward to ease / shut-off power. Left hand, Brake control, pull back to release, push forward to apply brakes. Note, it's back to both apply / increase power and to release brakes, while forward both shuts off power and applies brakes. The single combined controller still mimics this arrangement; The central possition's coast, and forwards applies the brakes and backwards applies power. So, the same as the two handed arrangement, backwards releases brakes and then applies power, forwards shuts off power and applies brakes. There's also a 'notch' which requires the handle to be depressed to move from the brake zone. Plus, the instinctive reaction to bang the brake on, left handle fully forward's exactly the same effect. My original comment though, was more about what did happen here.

Well, if we could be permitted to stray back on topic briefly... (as noted earlier, the incident occurred on the goods line, not the depot, so depot working had no relevance to it). The HST power car (43300) is not written off, yet. Simply requires a new cab and negotiations are ongoing with the leasing company as to if it's to be repaired if wanted for further use (and it was previously said to be one of those destined for MML). Rest of the set thought to be undamaged. The 800 on the other hand, IS written off. Driving Trailer, twisted frames; some coaches, end collision damage. Full set to be taken to Wolverton and completely stripped. Bodies, bogies, bar couplings (or whatever you wish to call them), gangways, dampers, springs, etc all scrap. Recovered components transported back for reassembly into a new set shipped from Japan.

And a lot less technical; Manual windows and handbrakes And no; Double locking and Steering wheel locks

Certainly the case on the ECML where, after Friday evening Sunday Afternoon's said to be the second busiest peak time of the week. Largely with week-long commuters returning to London for Monday morning. From Newcastle for example, the normal weekday afternoon service is half-hourly, 11.59 - 18.00 13 trains. Same times Sunday afternoon, all of 21 trains, some just 10 minutes apart, and they're still all busy. It's also noticeable that whereas at one time weekend engineering possessions would usually last all weekend, or even into early Monday mornings, these days possessions, and especially diversions, are usually finished by mid-day Sunday at the latest.

That's right from what I've read. You book the tour through UK Railtours, then email your booking to LNER to apply for free tickets for the opposite direction. 18th "The Northern Lights" Edinburgh - Aberdeen - Inverness 19th "The Highland Chieftain" Inverness -Edinburgh 20th "The Northumbrian" Edinburgh - Leeds 21st "The West Riding Limited" Leeds - Kings Cross I like the appropriate choice of titles for the tours. First class on all tours, and both classes on the final one already fully booked. The HST set, apparently, fully repainted Blue/Grey especially for the occasion.

Yes, clipping points and talking by signals is possible, and just look at the delays that causes on the mainline. Depots can actually be very busy places at night, and rely on smooth running to get everything through in time. If you then have to rely on having a shunter going round hand-cranking and clipping power points then talking you past signals (so not simply reverting to the old system of hand points) they simply wouldn't get round the system in time.

Yes, but as you say, off the depot which is off the Up Slow. The point was that Pl.1's rarely used by Northbound Mainline trains, and that's as they can only use it starting, or turning back from, Doncaster as it's not accessible from the Down Mainline

Especially as in this case there was, fortunately, no injuries never mind fatalities, and it occurred on a Goods Line not permitted for passenger trains. On the issue of signaling depots, the incident didn't occur on the depot, and the issue was permissive working. The alternative would have been the 800 standing on, and blocking, the Main Line until the HST was in clear on the depot and this is a busy route. As for fully signaling depots, with all that added complication, you then just need a signaling failure on the depot and... no trains next day

Probably easier than trying to couple a loco to one of those things I'm surprised that in such a low speed incident it required skating.

Errm no, that's signaled by Position Light, ie shunt, Signals which are Permissive, and the ones in view will be provided to control movements through power-operated points. It's not skimping! It's how depots have always been worked, and helps keep trains moving where they're only traveling a very low speed anyway, 15mph has been quoted for the goods line in this incident, and standard speed on a depot these days is 5mph. Many points in sidings on depots are generally hand-operated so can't be signaled, movements being controlled by a shunter. If you tried applying main line signaling on depots they'd grind to a halt. Permissive working's also how you manage to couple two 5-car 80x's together in service when attaching portions, or couple a loco to a train etc

Yes, the HST as well as the 800 would have had full OTMR data recording

Yes, both were moving onto the depot. A lot of the comments here expressing concern about the behaviour of the 800 have been from experienced railwaymen though From what I've heard, it may be 'out' for considerably longer than that It is, and of course a collision with the stops at that speed would be more severe than with a train moving in the same direction. Other worries here are, with the extent the coaches are out of line here, in a low speed derailment they would foul an adjoining running line. Or at even a moderate speed, if the couplings are so far out of line it would seem to give an increased chance of them breaking and coaches overriding each other. Not possible, from what I've heard

But the pantographs are not, as has previously been said, lowered for neutral sections. What happens is a track magnet and receiver on the train opens the train's VCB before the neutral section and closes it again after it. They're basically the same as an AWS permanent magnet and receiver except that they're positioned on the outside of the rail instead of center of the track. In fact, and in relation to the original comment on drivers dropping the pan and 'gliding' as he put it, it's not normally permited to raise a pan at speed. One exception's specific* power change over points for bi-mode trains. Another's when "High Speed Coasting" is specially authorized to pass under a damaged section of OHL. For this to happen the section beyond the affected one needs to be suitable for the pan to be raised (no wire run-offs or crossover lines etc). After the coasting section there's the 'Raise Pan' sign, this is followed by a further board that indicates the limit at which the pan can be raised, and if you pass this without the pan being raised you have to stop, or at least reduce to 20mph, to do so. * With the 800 training runs, we were at the time having to change over power mode at Darlington due to the restriction at the time on them using the OHL north of there. This isn't a normal power change over location so we were required to stop to do so.

That probably is how Bounds Green's set up, as that's the way the sets are. From Newcastle, we never get on the depot. It has though, long been the practice, since well before the 225s, or even 125s, on EC sets to have them First class south, so the First class are first out the platform at Kings X, and to the taxi rank. Not as trivial as it may sound, with a busy train I've seen passengers still leaving the platform a good 10 minutes after we've arrived, and not just talking of the stragglers either! The 225s were designed for Kings X to have the First class at the south end, and the loco on the north end so it's easy to swap off if needed by Bounds Green. The biggest issue when a set's in reverse is the time lost, as the coaches are in the opposite order to the platform marker boards for passengers with reservations - most of them these days. Bit of a problem there, it's not electrified

EC diversions via Carlisle reverse direction at Newcastle, departing via the K.E.B. so First class leading, via Carlisle, Carstairs, and Haymarket into Edinburgh, so no need to use the 'Sub' to turn them. With a Deltic it was probably to avoid the need to 'run-round'. On the ECML they always seem to have been keen on keeping sets the 'right way round' ie First class next to the buffers / exits at Kings X. Normally quite east as the routes mean they don't tend to get turned in normal service. A number of the diversions used will turn the set though, but it's easily put right the first time it gets to Newcastle. One regular working, the evening Aberdeen - Leeds is often booked on a diversionary route from York which brings it into Leeds from the wrong direction. It's pre-turned at Newcastle so the diversion puts it right again. The layout at Newcastle makes it particularly easy to turn sets. Of the four routes, three can arrive or depart the station in either direction, and for the other, the North Main Line, they're simply turned the other side of Newcastle. Plus the time penalty for turning a set 'round the bridges' is usually only around 5 minutes. Defects meaning it can't be driven from the leading end are more problematic on EC, as it's really only Newcastle where it's possible to turn a set en-route. This usually results in the train being terminated, then doing a set swap with a train in the opposite direction, so the defective end's trailing and the set ends up convenient for Bounds Green or Craigentinny.