classy52

8 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

The descent into politics and economics might be avoided if people didn't continually "bang on" about the price of the product.  We can but hope...

People will always talk about price especially at junctures where there is a considerable leap from what you pay today and what you pay tomorrow thus you can wrap the economics around that which is fine (I find everyone's opinions on that quite interesting) but please keep your political bias out of it because it has no place in a model railway thread or forum.

Fantastic to see this thread descend into political cheap shots which is starting to creep into this forum as a whole over the past few weeks...leave your political bias crap out of it & talk about the product!

10 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

Wow!  The DCC operated windscreen wipers are amazing!   Those pantographs are pretty stunning as well.

You missed the little animatronic dude waving at you from inside the cab as it drove past.

10 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

However, I'm aware of instances where the intention of the reverse engineering was to work out how it was done, and then be able to do the same thing in a way that doesn't infringe the IP. 

Yes that's what I meant in my OP.

I would say a good trade off to cover yourselves financially is to present your new product intentions at a fully completed CAD Stage so it can be presented to the buying public on whatever forums of your choosing for feedback or review that way adjustments can be made before committing to tooling.

9 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Come on Classy52, nobody twisted anything and you did misquote Gibbo675. He (as you now state) said “cheap for what you get”, not just “cheap” as you then replied. There is a vast difference in meaning between thise two. 
 

No twisting there, just a simple reflection on what was actually posted. Time for you to recognise that difference and apologise to Gibbo675?

 

Roy

As you know its all about interpretation of what people say especially on forums such as this one and yes things can snowball or get out of hand whether rightly or wrongly because of interpretation, if we could all sit there at a club, exhibition or pub and discuss things even this topic it would have been understood, agreed or even debated in a heartbeat but yes we all suffer the curse of online discussion where we type what's in our head and pray it comes out as intended and because we all read things differently there are situations when it gets out of control causing angst & frustration where there should be none, this more than likely happens in every thread on RMWeb everyday.

We would have all interpreted Gibbo675's post in a different way and I interpreted in a manner that he said he feels models are cheap for what we get and I just responded in disagreement with that and I stated why I disagreed thus it wasn't anything major but when he responded to say otherwise that is fine but to go on and accuse me of taking an extremely cheap shot by apparently misquoting well this to me was completely unwarranted because that was no way my intention but this bit seems to be lost on most people reading the exchanges and again it comes down to interpretation doesn't it?

Yes I apologise to Gibbo675 or to anyone else if I had misquoted or misinterpreted the OP but like I said its down each individual interpretation and none of us are perfect and online forums are the proverbial minefield when it comes to discussions.

Now if you all feel Gibbo675 was justified in directing an unwarranted accusation at me or for other members to write utterly misquoted crappy responses to fellow members for no reason but don't feel they should apologise then that is your prerogative because that's just the way it is in these forums and I will always push back when accused and defend other members if required....now let's get back to the Heljan 86 and why we can or can't afford a £200 plus DCC Ready AC Loco from the GC or how good it will be and buy it anyway.

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

They tried the method of close communication when the 66 was being developed.

Then they failed to meet several dates they had given. I don't think they were trying to mess anyone around, they were just faced with unexpected problems.

Around this time, they seemed to realise why it is often best to say nothing. Don't make promises you can't keep.

 

They may well be trying to find an alternative design for the axleboxes but don't want to say anything in case they can't find a solution they are happy with.

I know it may not sound right but they could just purchase loco's from other manufacturers who have implemented rotating AB's (there is a recent one) and reverse engineer those ones to see how its done properly and re-design around the research.

9 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

FFS.

You completely and utterly misunderstood what Gibbo had typed

I'll alter it to make it more understandable

Gibbo is quite surprised that they aren't actually MORE expensive than what we actually pay for.

 

Is that better?

 

 

Twist it all you like but he stated models are cheap in his eyes for what we get and I countered that with no they are not and highlighted why, look we can back & forth on every word and interpret or dissect them all we like but at the end of the day paying what we do for model locomotives is getting ridiculous (but strangely not from Accurascale, Hattons or Dapol) and I think everyone apart from Bachmann's owners Kader do not have exclusive ownership to factories or facilities (I may be be wrong so please correct me if required) thus you cannot lay the blame on that which Gibbo has alluded to in his post.

Don't get me wrong I respect Gibbo's take on experience with manufacturing in his engineering capacity but it isn't within the model railway business and again for me he alluded to the fact that everyone are running their own factories or facilities causing massive overheads and accompanying price hikes which isn't the case thus you cannot lay the blame for these increases on that justification alone especially when you're talking about Gaugemaster/Heljan Class 86 or even the new Class 47 in the other thread being priced at @£229.95 DCC Ready.

Instead of everyone being smart arses with emoji's & Latin references give me some proper counter and yes if we are still interpreting posts differently then we'll just agree to disagree as they say and move on.

11 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

QED

Well good try but at least you have a fanboy who may know what it means and still expresses with emoji's 

20 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Hi Chaps,

 

I've have worked in engineering for most of my life and I am well aware of how much it costs to set up a facility and equip it with the bare minimum of machinery let alone produce finely detailed and accurate models.

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

I do not think that models are cheap.

 

I do however, knowing what it costs to run a factory, know that certain models are relatively cheap considering what goes into their production, that is quite a different premise from saying models are cheap.

 

As an aside, I also know that being misquoted is extremely cheap.

 

Gibbo.

Glad you think models are now not cheap but Gaugemaster are not running a factory all on their own with associated overheads just so you know and that unwarranted cheap shot at the end is just lazy...I have added your original post to show everyone I didn't misquote you ok, the bit where you said they are cheap for what you get is highlighted in bold red.

Right, now we've got that straightened out over to you ...

2 minutes ago, Redkiterail said:

Might be worth making this model in O gauge

I think 'Heaton Lodge Junction' would purchase several hundred of these in O gauge assuming they are aligned with his era & area of operation.

14 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Hi Chaps,

 

I've have worked in engineering for most of my life and I am well aware of how much it costs to set up a facility and equip it with the bare minimum of machinery let alone produce finely detailed and accurate models.

 

The only thing that surprises me me is that they are as cheap as they are for what you get.

 

Gibbo.

You think locomotive models are cheap?...far from cheap too be honest considering they are all full of tooling, livery, colour, manufacturing and QC issues so @£229.95 RRP DCC Ready Class 86 (incl. Heljan Class 47 by GC)  it literally needs to be near perfect to sell at that price or even discounted from that price.

3 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

It's not difficult to confirm/deny using flickr for example.

Although not a 33/0 as per the announced 33/0 - currently owned by WCRC, 33207 had one set plated in 1991, with the other end at a later date as far as I can find out.

 

 

Yes correct and viewing the photo's from 2018 onwards WCRC 33025 does have one end tail lights plated over (non-fan end) & the other end tail lights are not plated over (fan end)...would be interesting to know if Heljan have replicated this?

1 minute ago, Mike at C&M said:

Something else to consider in the supposed astronomic increase in prices.

 

£161.49 quoted for the original batch is a discounted price and potentially subject to increase when these models actually appear.

£229.00 is the RRP at what will be the new price, and is likely to be discounted by many shops, ourselves included.

 

The perceived gap is not as large as it might at first seem.

So the Gaugemaster Collection models are also sold via other retailers?...apologies but not sure on this as I haven't purchased GC models before.

2 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Yeah ok...good to know.

1 hour ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

Hi Mike, 

 

Thank you for raising the points that you have. I didn't think of some of them and I can see why they would increase the overall price per locomotive. If the price is correct for each locomotive I can't help but think, have Heljan considered how many people that would buy or be interested in buying these models a) could afford to and b) could justify spending that amount of money per model. For example if a customer wanted to buy both of the Freightliner Powerhaul 86s to run as a pair, as is prototypical most of the time in reality, that would cost £460 and with DCC Decoders for a DCC user, nearly £500. That's without either of the locomotives been fitted with sound. If the price is correct, I just can't help but think that they are pricing the majority of potential customers who ordinarily would buy these models out of buying them. I, alike others who have posted above couldn't afford and I wouldn't be able to justify spending almost £230 each on 47815, 86622 and 86637. Unfortunately, this would mean that I and many others would miss out. 

 

Thank you. 

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

35 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

So your justification for selling them cheaper is because they mostly run in pairs?

 

Unfortunately there are two simple solutions in the harsh world upon which we exist

a: Buy one now and save up for the second

b: spend your available funds somewhere else. After all, we all know you have a massive shopping/wishlist as you've mentioned on numerous occasions.

 

(There is actually a solution c: but it would probably get me banned................)

 

That was a crap response Mick, very condescending and completely taken out of context and have included Danny's OP so people can see what he actually said which has nothing do with explicitly reducing the price so you can buy 2 Class 86's, what Danny stated and what you highlighted was just an example based on prototypical formations and how much it would cost if you chose to do this and not a call to Gaugemaster/Heljan to reduce the price so you can buy two.

To also have a dig at his historical posts is just poor form overall.

So what is c: then?..come on just say it.

On 07/11/2020 at 13:11, TomScrut said:

I'm happy they are doing a pristine WCRC one, I'll probably bite at that.

 

I was a bit bemused that in the last batch they did a weathered one far dirtier than they ever look in real life!

 

It says LED lighting in the statement, is this accurate? I am pretty sure last time they said that and then when they came they were bulb.

Have they got the tooling correct on the cab ends?...can't really tell from the promo pictures as they show only one end but have noticed with photos on Flickr that one end has the tail lights plated over & the other end they are still present?

Maybe someone can shed some light on this?

On 07/11/2020 at 13:57, IamDaniel said:

Is there any more info about the Olivias Trains exclusive? I can't see anything on its website or FB page, but the website suggests there's a re-run of D6515 - could it be this? https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Heljan/Heljan-class-33/Heljan-3451-class-33-0-d6515-lt-jenny-lewis-rn-as-preserved/

Just visited Olivia's website and yes they do have an Exclusive Edition D6515 due January 2021.

On 07/11/2020 at 15:11, Butler Henderson said:

3451 was this years release, I noticed that change to Olivias webpage for 3451 after they managed to flog the last one they had for £££ more than its quoted Heljan price elsewhere. If there is a re-run hopefully the window colour is corrected.

At £159 they better have the colour corrected and would be criminal if it comes out in white instead of cream again.

On 07/11/2020 at 21:41, slg said:

 

New model is 33035 NSE (even though the link says 33029 WCR)

 

https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Heljan/Heljan-class-33/Heljan-3460-class-33-0-33029-in-west-coast-railway-company-maroon-livery-2/

Also Preserved D6515...https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Heljan/Heljan-class-33/Heljan-3451-class-33-0-d6515-lt-jenny-lewis-rn-as-preserved/

16 minutes ago, Mike at C&M said:

I suspect the £161.45 is the originally quoted discounted price for the model, so expect that to go up, the 2nd batch of 86s announced are priced some £10 higher.

 

Then consider that Gaugemaster are now dealing with a lot of Heljan's distribution in the UK, another level of profit. But like many retailers, I have moved my orders to Gaugemaster, so as to avoid the hassle of buying direct from Denmark post-Brexit. At the end of day, Heljan will not want to see their profits diminish on items they produce, and quite rightly so. And if we retailers are buying these models from Gaugemaster, we still want our percentage of profit.......

 

Then consider that each year usually brings a small hike in price....

 

Then consider that Brexit will bring increased costs to bring items into the UK.....

 

Then consider that Freightliner may be asking for a contribution for using their Powerhaul livery which needs to be factored into the cost....

 

Even a small increment from each of these will push the discounted £161.45 price up towards £229.95 very quickly.

Then good luck to them, they won't get get any sales from me at those prices for DCC Ready and if it means I'm priced out of purchasing Heljan locomotives then so be it.

24 minutes ago, Wagpnmaster said:

Does seem quite a mark up for an exclusive limited edition. Mind you, I've noticed that quite  few of these and retailer commissioned models are at a premium, so much so that I end up not buying them! A don't get me started on Bachmann's latest multiple units!

 

I'll still be having an original blue syp 86 though!

 

 

Yeah but I've never witnessed anything quite like this, the most is probably around £180 but £229.95 is the ultimate p*ss take.

11 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Never going to be £80 less than that asking price, but I agree that the price seems somewhat on the high side.

 

I don’t normally complain on price, but I am not sure what is happening with this hobby as these prices are going to drive people away and stop new entrants. 

 

Roy

Yeah totally agree.

I meant up to £80 off the price but realistically I would expect these loco's to be priced no more than £180 RRP too be honest, to me this would be an unprecedented jump in DCC Ready price for a new tooled loco and personally no matter how much I would like 47815 I simply would not buy it @£229.95.

I mean seriously Hattons released their brand new Class 66 DCC Ready @£150 only recently so to speak (ignore the issues) and you look at Accurascale's loco pricing thus this Gaugemaster pricing doesn't make any sense.

14 minutes ago, shunny said:

I was wondering if its a holding price until Heljan confirm rrp as the other collection models haven't been overpriced or Heljan have confirmed the price and the standard releases will be around this price also?

Dear Lord I hope not, that would be sales suicide barring a few stupid enough to pay that price.

2 minutes ago, DRS Crewe On A Mission said:

 

Whilst it's nice of Heljan to offer some further versions and liveries of the Class 86 as Limited Editions I have just been looking at the product pages and thinking exactly the same. Almost £230 for DCC Ready. I rarely complain about prices but...

 

Kind Regards, 

 

Danny. 

Seriously it must be a mistake, if not they'll be lucky to sell more than 10 at that price.

I'm glad Gaugemaster have commissioned a current day Class 47 as in 47815 which I would purchase if at least 80 quid is taken off the asking price, otherwise forget it.

28 minutes ago, shunny said:

Gaugemaster have announced several new exclusive models as part of their Gaugemaster collection range

 https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/gm-collection-brand5.html?scale=452

 

 

Ummm as per Heljan Class 86 thread what is going on with Gaugemaster's pricing...again £229.95 for the DCC Ready loco???