C126

Hurrah! I am so glad for you. Inspired by your example, I tried plotting a 'pattern' to my (still theoretical) passenger trains yester-day, and trying to interweave parcels, news, milk, etc. Never knew platform occupation and usage was so complicated! Happy reading, and let us know how you get on.

Many thanks @Fat Controller for such a prompt reply. I had forgotten to allow for the processes of chilling, pasteurisation, etc.! However, that is just the sort of timings I need.

Sorry to be so dull-witted, but there is a big 'milk train following' on RMWeb, so I hope someone can answer a simple question for me: How many days old was the milk in the tank trains from the West Country by the time it was discharged at the London terminals (particularly Vauxhall)? The farm milks its cows twice a day (Day 1), morning and evening. If a farm had its milk taken (say mid-day) on Day 1 to the nearest 'concentration depot', in Devon, for example, was it then loaded that evening to be taken by train over-night to London, and so unloaded/ discharged on the morning of Day 2? Or would the 'supply chain' be slower? I would just like to know when the milk tanks arrived to be loaded, to get up to London a.s.a.p. I am planning a milk siding for my Southern Region layout ('Rule 1'); when must one 'slot in' the arrival of empty tanks (mid-morning?), and departure to Town of filled ones (early evening?). All help gratefully received, and thanks as always for giving this your consideration.

As a hoarder prone to a 'terminal' state of mind about memories and things being lost, in parallel I wonder often if there is a 'meta-list' of collections of railway photographs. Not all the credited photographers one sees in the railway books and magazines of the 1970's and '80's are on the inter-web. Is there a 'master-page' somewhere to click on for the archive of John Vaughan for example (I know in this gentleman's case it is part of the https://www.britishrailwayphotographs.com/ web-site). Mr Colin Marsden has his own, but other, more obscure, contributors must have unpublished snaps of interest. I feel another project coming on...

Actually, I think, looking at: https://britishrailwaybooks.co.uk/wtt/sregion/sregionindex.php ...it might be Section WB, "SOUTH EASTERN DIVISION - MAIN LINE (via North Kent and Chatham)". Do check before you buy one.

You really do need a Working Time-Table (W.T.T.) for the line (Section WA) in the relevant period to model your service. Can you find one for sale on certain web-sites? If you have never read one before, you are in for a surprise...

Glad to read the last two blog postings, and the draft time-table above. It was a source of constant annoyance when we went on holiday to France in the early 1980's that S.N.C.F. did not copy the Southern's 'clock-face' practice. Anyway, I attach two quick photographs from an early 1970's 'Mandatory' W.T.T. (i.e., Freight), to express a hope for exquisite artisan time-table compositing in this style. Or perhaps not! If someone has the relevant passenger W.T.T., I hope they can post a few pages. I regret I have only the Central Division.

@Compound2632 Thanks for your kind remarks. Yes, the B.W. packs are white, although perhaps they could receive a satin varnish to represent the plastic's gloss, and you are quite correct in voicing concern about the 'end loading' in the Opens. It is the only way I can get them to fill the wagon neatly. The 'narrowest' way lying flat is to have two packs side-by-side giving a scale 'load width' of 32mm., 2 mm. too wide. No wonder they went by lorry. If anyone can shed light on any wagons used 'in reality' for these packs, I would be interested. Some sort of sheeted 'Timber open'-style wagon, with bolsters?

Fair enough. I was acting under the assumption Grove Ferry remained open, as a 'Barnham-style' junction station. This was the example I was trying to remember.

Sorry to make things more boring for the sake of 'realism', and I stand to be corrected, but I think the service would be a simple shuttle to a junction at Grove Ferry and no further, for a change onto the train to Canterbury West. In the late '70's, things were being run down, as the future was the motor-car. The only occasion which springs to my mind (admittedly of limited knowledge) of a branch-line train going onto a larger station as it were is Seaford-Brighton, connecting at Lewes for the Hastings/Eastbourne-Victoria. I am not sure why you would want pl.1 to be used for passengers; please could you elaborate?

Mornin' all. May I just hold my hand up to the confusion about trains through to Ashford and Hastings. This was when I thought the location was inland, half-way on a line of longitude between Faversham and Charing. Now it has been relocated, I defer to everyone's local knowledge, and also admit to being confused by the original railway company initials rather than the lines' main stations, so please forgive any mistakes I make. If pl. 2 is to remain electrified, what is to be done with the loco-hauled Mk. I.s, other than occasional inter-regional portion and Saturday excursions? Also, I would hold out for a commuter service joining at Grove Ferry for lowly-paid plebs unable to afford to live in Canterbury; it is not just London that has commuters. Like the Lymington and Sheerness(?) branches, a one-unit shuttle connecting to a main line. Sure there was something else to add from a previous page, but I have forgotten now. As to Suder's business, think of 'anything in a van'. To increase interest, it would be nice for her/his business to be served by an extra 'Q' (as required) Speedlink train, as presumably the Zanussi warehouse would have a daily block train north to their depot. And personally, I find block trains boring...

Well, I am glad my summary is largely all right. May I still argue for the de-electrification of pl. 2 to allow use of peak-time supplementary commuter loco-hauled stock (as I am not sure for what else it would be used), please, perhaps on a rambling semi-fast route via Canterbury, Ashford, and Maidstone West to Town, or to Hastings (I think this would be far enough for it to terminate, and there were(?) run-round facilities there). Or both (one with the mini-Buffet)! However, it is your railway, I must remind myself...

As we are now on p.4 of the thread, I wonder if we could compose a summary of what we have decided, and Ray Von agrees, please. Sorry to be a 'bear of very little brain', but it is easier gathering one's thoughts and filling in the last gaps (if any). I think we have agreed to Nearholmer's splendid map, and that the run-down diesel service will run from pl. 2 to Canterbury. Or is it electrified? Is the line still open down to Shepherds Well? This line will handle freight: white goods and sundries to the warehouse, fish and shell-fish in N.P.C.C.S. (how about it going back to Town on the Newspaper empties?), M.o.D. traffic, and perhaps imports/exports to the Wharf when some ferry vans are procured. Also agricultural supplies in sacks, like Bartholomew's of Chichester. Pls. 3 & 4 is the whizzy, go-ahead, frequent, electric service to Town. Scrap goods would amble along once a day, occasionally with a waste-oil tank, perhaps returning to the electric arc furnace at Sheerness? Errrrr... have I missed anything? Is Ray Von happy with all this that we have decided for him?

By the time I post this, I will have forgotten what I meant to comment on on p.3 of this thread, but may I just alert all to imports needing ferry-vans, I assume (those IIB Cargowaggons are available), especially if like Paddock Wood, whereas the fleet here is VAAs, VBAs, and VEAs. This suggests a domestic source and destination. I would agree with Nearholmer that Railfreight, to my limited knowledge from too many years trawling any book of photographs (and some not), had no buildings of their own by the late 1970's. It was private enterprises that used existing old buildings (e.g., Fogarty's of Blackburn?) I think. However, could it not be advertising their service?!

The problem with cement/gravel is it would be long block trains, rather than Speedlink wagon-load. However, R.A.F. Manston could see deliveries of 'government stores'. It occurred to me later that shell-fish and boat-catches would be more likely to be sent up 'fast' via N.P.C.C.S., rather than Speedlink, which obviates the need for those cute VEAs. Bother. However, perhaps one could have traffic of bagged cement in or out?

That is the one. "The splendid Fleischmann HO layout featured at the Festival of Model Railways Show in London in the summer of 1977 included a working automatically operated hump yard, built entirely from standard Fleischmann parts." A single hump road gave access to a five-road sorting yard via a King 3-way and 2 points.

If I may drag the thread off-topic in a different direction, I hope the following might prove inspiration enough to those with the will and space to build a hump yard layout needing a '13': A miniature hump? ELLIS, Chris & ANDRESS, Michael. Model Trains, 1980, OCT. (Mentions "the Rev. Edward Beal built one for his famous West Midland layout over 30 years ago!" Does anyone know this layout?) Hump yard layout. LINK, Roy C. Railway Modeller, 1994, JAN. (There are subsequent part(s), which I missed.) A model hump yard. LOCKWOOD, Christopher. British Railway Modelling, 1998, JULY. Drop me a line if you would like further details. Hope this is of interest.

Re my goods handling suggestions, I, also, was confused by the two establishments in one frontage; sorry about that. Also, I am not sure what sort of economy North Kent had then. I assume only vans will be handled at the Railfreight and Suder's, and one flow could be a block company train of 'comestibles' from the north (but this means a repeated rake of identical vans). For 'Speedlink' wagon-load traffic, could shell-fish be harvested in quantities sufficient to be sent speedily up to Town by rail? VEAs from the quay-side, loaded thus owing to tight curves in the docks, and reversed to add to the main train? What is the land-use for the area? This should prompt thoughts on goods in and out. It looks very much like Pevensey marshes: bleak, desolate, and dotted with sheep. Could sea-salt be harvested, packaged, and sent out? If not fertilizer, how about (bagged) animal feed, seed, and chemicals in occasionally to a merchant's? Extractive industries need hoppers and opens, rather than vans, but is there any light engineering, associated with the sea nearby? Is there food grown nearby that could be processed and dispatched? I am not quite up to speed - not enough Darjeeling drunk yet to-day - but hope the above helps supplement Nearholmer's ideas.

You will put in buffer-stops, won't you, lest the driver get distracted by the 'invigorating' advert ahead...?

And do not forget all the litter on the tracks and platforms.

Sorry to confuse; have I read the maps incorrectly? I wondered if the "rambling route" (pls 1 & 2) could be more 'run down' like the Ashford Hastings line - which would mean using diesels - and so have an extension to the Ashford-Hastings service. I am not very au fait with Kent, so do put any errors down to my reading Wignall's 'Complete British railways maps...'. I have your station placed just North-west of Ashford and South-west of Faversham, so perhaps a junction near Charing? However, if you want to keep the electrified platform, then you can dispense with the diesel provision. Hope this makes sense.

You haven't even scratched the surface. Ask us what freight could be handled at your warehouse...

I take my hat off to what has been proposed so far. Just a quick thought, looking at my rail atlas, how about running a DEMU as an extension to the Ashford-Hastings service? I assume your station would be served by a branch from Ashford, but this means removing the Third Rail...

You are certainly not alone in having models that bare no relation to their intended layouts: I have an SNCF 'CC' nez casse AC-electric HO loco bought as a birthday present from my parents when we were on holiday and highly prized (so beautiful!), and now want a Class 13 shunter for my S.R. goods yard if it is ever made. I muse occasionally on what it is that makes a train 'attractive' or not: good design (Hymek, Class 53 Falcon, H.S.T.), sentimentality from one's childhood (33, 73), or just downright ugly (modern Class 70, Class 68). My old Lima '40' will be staying in its box, but I want a 25/3 to call at my yard with an inter-regional Company train. Perhaps you could use your 25 for a brief, seasonal, intensive, freight flow (but I have no idea what. Hops to go northwards to Burton-on-Trent?). Keep up the good work on your layout and letting us know how you get on. It looks splendid, and I am sure I am not alone in finding inspiration for my own project.

I had a sudden idea about using the '40' on an over-night Company block-train to the private shed, like the Kelloggs service to Crawley New Yard from the north via Willesden. However, this would be very much 'artistic license', I think, to have a Speedlink in addition, and the '40' might have been changed to a '47' at Willesden. See Michael Rhodes's photo in Dr Paul Shannon's 'Speedlink' (2014), p.7. "One of the first flows to use B.R.'s air-braked vans was Kelloggs traffic from Trafford Park to Hatfield and Crawley, which ran as a combined train as far as Willesden. No. 40 143 pauses at Manchester Piccadilly with the Willesden-bound train in January 1977."