SED Freightman

I suspect the trains were split outside Chinnor as I do not recall mention of the need to split at Princes Risborough and the TOPS consists show the whole train set out for Chinnor although thats not necessarily an accurate reflection of what happened in far off parts. Any idea if there would there have been a travelling shunter based at Princes Risborough or were the train crew left to fend for themselves ?

In 1988 a total of 11 trainloads of foreign coal were forwarded from Halling to Chinnor, the coal arrived via Rugby Cement's own wharf on the River Medway on a small vessel or barge having been delivered in a bulk carrier to Thamesport. Two sets of HTV wagons were provided to convey the traffic, with loaded and empty sets being swapped at Chinnor, giving Rugby Cement about three days to load at Halling and a week to unload at Chinnor. I have not managed to uncover full details for each train, but what I have is shewn below. The loaded wagons were generally tripped from Halling to either Hither Green or Hoo Junction on the day prior to the trunk movement or Friday if forward on Monday. The departure and arrival times are actual rather than planned. Mon 22/02/1988 7Z50 0940 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - 33008 + 33016 + 30 ld HTV's arr.? Mon 29/02/1988 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco ? + 34 ld HTV's arr.1345 Fri 04/03/1988 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 32 ld HTV's arr.1230 Thu 10/03/1988 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco ? + 30 ld HTV's arr.1450 Thu 17/03/1988 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor - Loco? + 31 ld HTV's arr.1205 Fri 25/03/1988 7Z63 1222 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 33040 + 33055 + 31 ld HTV's arr.1535 Fri 15/04/1988 7Z63 1237 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47186 + 29 ld HTV's arr.1544 Fri 22/04/1988 7Z63 1233 Hoo Junction to Chinnor - 47521 + 32 ld HTV's arr 1545 Fri 29/04/1988 7Z63 1255 Hither Green to Chinnor - 33057 + 33008 + 31 ld HTV's arr 1505 Fri 07/05/1988 7Z63 1424 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47339 + 34 ld HTV's arr.1755 Fri 13/05/1988 7Z63 1425 Hither Green to Chinnor - 47016 + 28 ld HTV's arr.1645

A train shewn as 'Y' in the WTT could run to more than one of two or more destinations as dictated by traffic demand. In the case of the 7V79 1312 (SX Y) from Angerstein Wharf it could run to either Park Royal or Paddington New Yard as determined by the customer who would generally advise their requirements on a Thursday for the following week. The details of where the train was to run on which day would then be published on a weekly or daily notice for signallers and ground staff whilst the train crew diagrams would also be amended as necessary.

As always it depends on a number of factors. At smaller stations the end loading dock was often only on a short siding, so only one or two wagons could be positioned for loading at a time. If there was no loco available for a turnover shunt then it may be necessary to wait for the next visit of the local goods train to remove the loaded wagons and replace them with more empties. Meanwhile the loaded wagons could either be forwarded once ready or held in another siding until the whole consignment was ready to go. If the wagons required examination by a loading inspector or needed to be forwarded as an exceptional load then it is likely that they would be held back until all could be examined and forwarded in one go. Another consideration would be whether the trailers could be manhandled along a raft of wagons during loading or whether they they needed to be backed on by some type of vehicle, in the case of the latter it may be too difficult to reverse the trailers along more than one or two wagons. If more than one wagon was to be loaded at once then bridging plates would need to be placed between each wagon unless they were designed for end loading in which case they may be equipped with drop down ends to act as bridging plates. Most end loading docks were equipped with hinged bridging plates to cross the gap to the first wagon.

Thanks for posting the link showing (Image 35) the return working off 7Z63 1255 Hither Green Yd to Chinnor, which was worked by 33008 + 33057, and clearly shows that the SED locos and crews worked through to Chinnor, I guess there was not much route learning necessary to cover the branch from Princes Risborough.

The following services to Greenford (Rugby Cement), Paddingtone New Yard (Tarmac Topmix) and Park Royal (Tarmac Topmix) appeared in the SR Freight WTT commencing 02/10/1989, they would all have been worked by Hither Green based locos and crews throughout. 6V25 0441 (SO) Halling RPC to Greenford RPCM - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop. 6O58 0935 (ThO) Greenford RPCM to Halling RPC - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn. 7V27 2032 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop. 7O47 0302 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Angerstein Wharf - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn. 7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Park Royal - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop. 7O65 1945 (SX Y) Park Royal to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn. 7V79 1312 (SX Y) Angerstein Wharf to Paddington New Yd - ran via North Pole Jn, West Ealing & Greenford Loop. 7O65 1930 (SX Y) Paddington New Yd to Plumstead Yd - ran via Greenford Loop, West Ealing, North Pole Jn. The BP oil traffic from Grain to Thame finished around 1984 with the run down of the BP Kent Refinery after which it originated from the Shell Refinery at Thameshaven, albeit still on BP's account I think. In the days of VB wagonload traffic, Cox & Danks at Park Royal used to despatch scrap in minfits to Sheerness Steel, although no doubt they sold to other companies as well. The coal traffic mentioned by Davexoc from North Kent to Chinnor passed in 1988 and the few trains that operated, conveying imported coal in HTV's, would have used the route via Greenford as they were worked by Hither Green crews who would previously have worked to Thame. I have details of the motive power and formation of these services if anyone is interested.

Reference the earlier discussion on collected tickets it occured to me to have a look in the SR Phone directory, the last ever copy of which was dated 01/09/1992. The page covering Purley (copy appended below), gives a number for the D.O.F.A.S. Collected Ticket Section along with the Muniments Stores mentioned by Nearholmer. It would appear that the used ticket checking operation was relocated from Clapham Junction, perhaps around the time Aptis was introduced, as there is nothing mentioned for them at Clapham Junction although the Fire Safety organisation activity was still based there.

I'm sure that at one time collected tickets and used seasons etc. were sent in pre-addressed envelopes to the Ticket Checking Section, Purley (possibly located in the old loco shed), did the Clapham Junction office move to Purley or vice versa, or was it a separate operation ? I had a couple of visits to the fire training school off St John's Hill, Clapham, the best part of which always came at the end of the course when you got the opportunity to point a fire extinguisher at a couple of burning cardboard boxes ! On one occaision, whilst based for a while at Southern House but commuting from Kent, I remember being a bit put out at having been sent for fire training at Clapham whilst a colleague living in Colliers Wood was sent for fire training at Ashford Works and duly reported back on the delights of the Kiln Cafe.

I had that pleasure about 10 years later, I think the course was run by the then chief clerk from the Waterloo CTEB, but I don't recall any interesting guest speakers.

At Kingsgate College ?

Folkestone Harbour on 22/06/2018, now forming part of the the former Harbour Station and Pier tourist attraction.

The were used in pairs on MGR coal trains to/from Cricklewood Brent Sdgs, around 1600t trailing load, not fast but they got there over the non electrified Dudding Hill Branch. As Mike mentions, the JA's and JB's would not work in multiple, an issue which resulted in the occasional cancellation of Betteshanger - Scunthorpe MGR trains when for a time the empties were worked in with a single loco and another arrived light engine from Ramsgate (off a newspaper train ?), all good unless the Ramsgate loco turned out to be a JA.

I can answer my previous question - this photo clearly shows tanks being washed out at Vauxhall https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_01_2017/post-238-0-44016500-1485421859.jpg

I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the tanks would contain baffles to prevent the undesirable movements you mention with the potential risk of lock buffering or derailment following a sudden brake application, although I can also see that internal baffles would possibly make the internal cleaning of tanks more difficult. Thinking further about the cleaning question, is there any evidence of the tanks being cleaned at Vauxhall as this would have required hot water to be piped from the dairy ?

While digging through some SR WTT's for the period 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978 I came across the following milk services which may be of interest :- 6O19 1640 (SUN) St Erth ) to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (EWD) 6O19 0308 (MX) Acton ) Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco. Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield. 6019 1703 (SO) St Erth to Morden South - Arr. 0430 (SUN) Worked by DL but no headcode shewn so presumably a WR loco. Ran via West London Line, Clapham Yard (0351-0415), Earlsfield. 6V05 1500 (SX) Morden South to Acton - Arr. ? Worked by EDL, headcode G2 Ran via St Helier (run round), Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, West London Line. Interestingly there were no return services shewn on SO or SUN. The following services were shewn as 'Train suspended but path reserved for future use', did traffic to Vauxhall ever resume ? 6Y26 0936 (EWD) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1253 Worked by DSL Called Vauxhall 0948 - 1248. 5Y20 1320 (EWD) Waterloo to Clapham Yard - Arr.1340 Worked by DSL 6Y27 0750 (SUN) Clapham Yard to Waterloo - Arr.1107 Worked by DSL Called Vauxhall 0803 - 1102 5Y20 1134 (SUN) Waterloo to Kensington Sidings (Clapham Junction) - Arr.1150 Worked by DSL

I would guess they were cleaned at the unloading terminal before the residue dried and became harder to remove, although I wonder if some cleaning agent or water was left in the tank for the return journey so that it could swill around the inside in much the same way that water was put into the clay tanks at Sittingbourne before they were despatched back to Burngullow.

The following workings appear in various sections of the SR WTT of Mandatory Services, dated 02/05/1977 to 07/05/1978. Edited after a trawl through more WTT's has revealed that the ECS was stabled at Margate from Saturday to Tuesday and Folkestone East from Thursday to Saturday. Use of Folkestone West would have allowed a leisurely transfer of passengers to and from road transport in the same way that the VSOE has operated in recent years, although back in the 70's other trains could pass on the Fast Lines. Interestingly both northbound services called at Herne Hill to load stores, presumably catering supplies. 1E12 0955 (TO) Margate to York - Arr. ? Headcode C9 Operated until 14/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 18/10/1977 Ran via Chatham, Bromley South, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn. 1O43 0931 (TO) York to Margate - Arr.1619 Headcode C9 Operated until 07/06/1977 also 30/08/1977 to 11/10/1977 Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Chatham. 5O43 1642 (TO) Margate to Fratton Yard - Arr. 2110 Headcode C8 to Clapham Jn, thence 07. Operated until 07/06/1977 also 06/09/1977 to 11/10/1977 Ran via Canterbury West, Orpington, Herne Hill, Clapham Junction, Hounslow, Woking, Guildford. 5E12 1056 (ThO) Fratton Yard to Folkestone East - Arr. 1616 Headcode 07 to Clapham Jn, thence C8 (SWD WTT shows forward as C9). Operated until 09/06/1977 also 08/09/1977 to 13/10/1977 Ran via Guildford, Woking, Wimbledon, East Putney, Clapham Junction, Herne Hill, Orpington, Ashford, Dover Marine (1455 - 1605). 5E12 0945 (SO) Folkestone East to Folkestone West - Arr. 0949 Headcode C8 Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977 1E12 1002 (SO) Folkestone West to York - Arr. ? Headcode C8 Operated until 11/06/1977 also 10/09/1977 to 22/10/1977 Ran via Ashford (1018-1027), Tonbridge, Orpington, Herne Hill (1135-1139 to load stores), Clapham Junction, Kew East Jn. 1043 0931 (SO) York to Folkestone West - Arr. 1630 Headcode C5 Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977 Ran via Kew East Jn, Clapham Junction, Nunhead, Bromley South, Maidstone East, Ashford (1603-1613). 5O43 1645 (SO) Folkestone West to Margate - Arr. 1751 Headcode C8 Operated until 04/06/1977 also 03/09/1977 to 15/10/1977 Ran via Deal.

Unfortunately when NCL were hived off they took over all of BR's C&D road parcels fleet and their drivers, BR were then required to hire them back from NCL which aided cost control and service delivery no end. Whilst this may have worked reasonably well on the ground at smaller parcels concentration depots like Redhill, it was a nightmare at big PCD's like Bricklayers Arms where NCL understandably gave priority to their own business in the event of a shortage of drivers or serviceable vehicles. BR could hire in third party resources in the event of severe disruption, but again this had to be done via NCL at (I suspect) enhanced rates.

Station signalling panel at Oberwil im Simmental on the BLS Branch from Spiez to Zweisimmen, seen from a passing train on 25/04/1984.

At the risk of going way off topic, I think the term Full Loads came about at the time when Sundries traffic (ie. less than Full Loads) was hived off to National Carriers (NCL). I have seen demarcation plans showing the division of certain goods depots such as Chatham into the areas to be passed to NCL and areas to be retained by the Board with the latter termed Full Load Depots. As far as the SED were concerned I think this term was applied to the goods depots at Ashford, Tonbridge and Rochester, although it would seem that staff on the ground may well have continued to use the historic location names.

After a bit more digging, the Sectional Appendix for November 1968 refers to the area either side of Blue Boar Lane as 'Chatham Goods Sidings', I also have an undated plan which shows the goods shed as 'Chatham Goods Depot'. However I also have what appears to be a more recent plan headed 'Rochester Full Load Depot' showing land and siding usage within the depot during the period that NCL occupied the shed, presumably for sundries traffic. The formal change of name would seem to have occured some time in the late 1970's.

I think that Mike Storey and I are both referring to the same place, albeit with different names. When I worked in the Division, Chatham Sdgs (with the main line connection) were to the north of Blue Boar Lane (with footbridge) and Rochester Full Loads (or Freight) Depot was predominently to the south, although I have also heard this referred to as Chatham Goods (possibly an earlier name).

The Kent Rail website has a photo of the mail train standing on the siding on the mainline side of the former goods shed at Rochester Freight (Full Loads) Depot, which is what I was thinking of, see https://www.kentrail.org.uk/rochester_freight_depot_2_2.html , as at Dover Priory the mailbags were transferred directly from lorry to van so no need for a platform. Interesting to hear of the derailment involving CCT's as these were the only vans normally permitted to be placed in the Down Sdg at Chatham station with parcels traffic, apparently when stabled the CCT doorways were not obstructed by the platform roof supports and BRUTES could be unloaded/loaded without incident.

As eastwestdivide has mentioned above, NPCCS could be seen at Rochester Freight Depot for Royal Mail traffic, whilst parcels were dealt with at Chatham station, a similar situation could also be seen at Dover Priory where Royal Mail traffic was loaded in the goods yard. Both goods locations allowed road vehicles to be parked right alongside the vans for ease of transfer and probably also provided a little more security for the traffic. At Tonbridge, mail (and magazine) traffic was handled on the station whilst parcels traffic was handled in the former goods sheds in the East Yard, hence NPCCS could be seen at both locations.

Balloch - 01/04/1983