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On 28/10/2023 at 10:52, CWJ said:

The Brewery Tap just outside Leeds station is very convenient and always has several ales on. Last time we ordered food it seemed to be an on-site posh-fast-food arrangement in a cardboard tray, but very tasty.

 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Head of Steam at Huddersfield station which has a wide range of ales, decent food, and railway memorabilia on the walls of one room. The exit directly onto Platform 1 has saved me missing trains on at least one occasion...

Also, The Kings Head on the other side of the station steps. Further along towards Manchester, over the road from Greenfield station is The Railway. There is, or used to be, a reasonably decent one on Dewsbury station, whose name I can't remember. Another nomination for the Left Luggage Room on Monkseaton Metro station 

10 hours ago, locoholic said:

I haven't really been following this thread and I'm rather intrigued by the recent comments, because no-one seems to have picked up on just what a crisis this represents for the whole rail industry. HS2 is just the highest profile failure in a trend that has been gathering pace for years - how likely is it now that electric trains will ever reach Oxford, or run from Manchester to Leeds, and how likely is it that East-West Rail trains will ever get any nearer to Cambridge than Bedford, or even that passenger trains will run to Portishead?

 

The evidence that is currently emerging regarding HS2 shows an industry that knows it delivers poor value for money, and resorts to deliberately under-estimating costs as the only way to get approval for a project. That's a stunt you can only pull so many times, and it's unlikely to work again. That means that the rail network will gradually atrophy, instead of developing to meet the needs of the country, regardless of the flavour of government we have.

On the first; closer than you think, as the recent work from Manchester to Stalybridge, and the work just started between Huddersfield and Dewsbury shows. That leaves three fairly small gaps in electrifying the entire line between Liverpool and York; unfortunately, two of them are probably the most difficult on the whole route.

On the second, can you point to a major engineering project, private or public, and particularly a railway one, that has ever come in at its original estimate. We've alraedy had the original GWR; several of Brunel's other projects (all three of his ships, for instance) came in way over cost; the original estimate for the Great Northern Railway was £3 million; it turned out at double that, and never reached its prime target, York.

And so on, and son.... 

11 hours ago, mac1960 said:

Melmerby

A slight recovery, but it does not address Bonds already issued at different rates. There has been a concept perpetuated that money not spent on HS2 extensions can be used elsewhere. That money has yet to be borrowed it’s not in the bank to be used. What needs to happen is that we don’t draw do that debt. 
Would you be ready for say, the end of the Triple Lock, NHS rationalisation, cut in Defence budget, other infrastructure programs, the list can go on. 

 

13 hours ago, mac1960 said:

I’m not sure some of you  realise but HS2 is paid for by borrowing , not from your taxes directly.

It’s a bit like putting it on your CC and unfortunately going by the interest being levied on UK CC , we are not being looked on in the world money markets as being very credit worthy.

The result is we are paying extremely high interest on our Govt Bonds in comparison with similar economies.

 

As a result , who ever enters N10, and I know this is politics to a degree but it should be considered.
 

However some party will have some very very tough calls to make, and to be honest there will be a lot more sacred Cows to be looked at ,over and above the expensive train set. Buckle up and cross what ever, as I am not sure it’s going to be very comfy for a lot of people. 

Some of us have been pointing this out for a while, now; one of regular contributors pointed it out yesterday.

5 hours ago, APOLLO said:

There is a new(ish) component in UK (world, pick the country) politics, the ever increasingly powerfull but non elected (by you and me) world organisations like The WEF (World Economic Forum), the Davos elite and what they decide, G7 (G insert no.etc),  the money men (IMF, EMF), the worlds interconnected banks, the UN etc etc. These people increasingly run the show. UK (name the country, USA included) politicians, all colours, dance to their tune.

 

A bit of info here.  https://www.imf.org/en/About/Factsheets/A-Guide-to-Committees-Groups-and-Clubs

 

These co-ordinate and sort out (or create !!) world problems going forward, They have a good chance of introducing / enforcing their views on all. Climate change / Net Zero etc being just one, They may be right or wrong on this thorny subject (or as I think somewhere in between !!).

 

Like it or lump it, energy is life, energy is transport, energy is home comfort, affordable food, goods etc. The era we all, worldwide, have all taken for granted and enjoyed of cheap energy (oil, gas, coal etc) is coming to an end, globally, and quickly with few practical viable alternatives. Electrification (though do able) is expensive and is neither an affordable or abundant energy source for many . Hence the push to 15 minute cities, expensive EV's that few can afford, work from home, you name it.

 

The political solution to transportation now seems to be to demonise travel and downsize or just plain wreck it (i.e. let the rail strikes continue). The onslaught on the motorist increases relentlesly, and is now turning to the rail traveller, We have just seen what is happening to HS2.

 

Then we have the stupidity and greed of a few in senior positions causing worldwide grief and two serious wars going on at the moment, and a few more simmering. 

 

It doesn't matter who you vote for in the UK (or US) the problems are many and worldwide.

 

I do not know the answers, perhaps they are not solveable on a world scale.

 

Brit15

The age of cheap energy came to an end between October and December 1973, when the price of crude oil increased from $3 per barrel to $11 per barrel. As you may recall, that and the OPEC embargo had a cataclysmic effect on the world economy

5 hours ago, DaveF said:

Photos from trips to Ratcliffe on Soar,which is still between Trent and Loughborough on the Midland.

 

The two photos taken in the snow would have been in the first week of January 1979.  It was a very cold day, on the way from Mum and Dad's where I was staying I passed a number of lorries which had broken down as their diesel had frozen, one had a small fire going under its tank.   At the time I was driving a Citroen Dyane which had an air cooled engine and a starting handle which was useful when it was really cold and the battery became a bit feeble.

 

 

Ratcliffe on Soar Class 45 up June 76 C2825

 

 

Ratcliffe on Soar Class 47 47488 down Nov 77 C3625

 

 

Ratcliffe on Soar Class 45 up Jan 79 C4252

 

 

Ratcliffe on Soar Class 45 down Jan 79 C4254

 

 

Ratcliffe on Soar Class 45 down April 80 C4988

 

David

C4254 just oozes cold!

On 16/10/2023 at 08:55, russ p said:

Morning David, just take it easy.  Hope you are feeling better soon

On 16/10/2023 at 07:56, JeffP said:

Ah, sorry, you're right.

I must have a blind spot towards Ilkeston after the last nine month's goings on at my football club...

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

If they cannot afford a car, then do they travel, do they need a train either ?

Most cars drive in a 5 mile radius of their home. (Shopping, school etc)

 

I wonder at somepoint if theres a case for flooding a metro area with fixed price ubers for a short radius at a price point and instant flexibility that it makes car ownership unattractive.

 

certainly since covid, my last trains home have cut back by an hour, making a late night in London difficult. First I was resigned to East Croydon, but after queuing to the early hours due to lack of taxis/ too many people with the same idea, and discovering the black cab fare home from Croydon was the same as an uber direct door to door from London, ive essentially switched mode from rail to uber to get home… put two people in the uber and both ways door to door have an advantage over train.

 

Multiply the number of available cars on the road, and manage the costs. the flexibility out weighs the desire to own a car.

Essentially rail becoming less frequent / more expensive risks making itself extinct, hS2 has shown this, it was purely an out of control cost decision, we cannot build railways in the UK any more because cost management has ballooned. but cars (especially electric) may yet do the same for personal car ownership… if you cannot afford a 10 year old car for £3k, your not going to be able to afford a 10 year old electric car for £15k… forget a new one at £60k…

This maybe why new car purchases are declining and average car age increasing.

 

Rails threat may not be the privately owned car in the future… it maybe Uber.

 

Since I retired and have an old git's bus pass, I do use the bus more; if I pay £10 add - on, I get free travel on train and tram as well, so in fact, I also use the train more. I walk a lot more as well. But the main thing that seems to have changed me is that I have an adult tricycle, with pedal - assist; it means that for most short journeys (up to about 4 miles) I use that instead. Obviously, the limiting factor is battery capacity, but I've managed the 20 miles into Manchester and back on a couple of occasions. But for supermarket top - up trips, visits to local meetings, football and so on, it's ideal. The only problems are the odd loons who get a bit close when they are overtaking, or the one that almost left - hooked my wife on Ashton Old Road the other week

 

 

5 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Is there just the slightest chance that you could quit with the politics, it gets really tiresome wading through post after post of the same cr@p.  

Sounds like a pretty good analysis to me! Oppositions don't "win" elections; governments "lose" them; in 1951, 1964, 1970, 1974, 1979, 1997, and 2010, the government lost because voters were tired of the direction of travel of the incumbents, to a certain degree, those incumbents had become stale and complacent, and/or there were external factors involved.

It's difficult to get away from politics when the whole topic of transport, as with everything else in the country is bound up in it; especially public railways, which have been "political" and subject to government regulation since their inception. 

15 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Of course, if the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway (& Canal Company!) had gone to the MS&L along with the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester, there would have been little real need for the line from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge. I suspect you may have been the MS&L and LNWR collaborating on trains to Huddersfield and Leeds. Historically, their relationship soured in the 1850s and tended to stay that way, so perhaps the LNWR will attempt their own line to Leeds in a fit of pique. Alternatively, they may be sensible and work with the MS&L/GC on Leeds traffic.

 

The GNR would be interesting. The MS&L could be a helpful ally in the West Riding, and the lines around Bradford, Queensbury, and Halifax may be joint MS&L/GN, much as the West Riding & Grimsby was historically. Of course, once the GCR builds the London Extension, they'll surely want to start running Bradford-Marylebone and Leeds-Marylebone trains, competing with the GNR trains to King's Cross.

IIRC, the branch from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge was almost on the original prospectus of the SA&MR. The LNWR built its Guide bridge bypass, from Denton Junction to Stalybridge (The Hooley Hill line) a bit later

On 15/10/2023 at 07:55, 65179 said:

 

It's your alt history. If you decide that the LNWR reasoned that cooperation was necessary and that more than limited interchange at Guide Bridge etc was needed, then why not? Alternatively assume that in a fit of pique they built some sort of expanded Spen Valley line scheme and had a competing route throughout!

 

Simon

Remember that in any case, the MS&L had a line from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge. Stalybridge Station was "Joint" between the them and the LNWR. Both companies shared the rebuilding costs in the 1880s when the Micklehurst loop was built. The LNWR trains from Manchester ran to there courtesy of the LYR branch from Miles Platting. They also ran from Stockport. At one time, the MS&L were going to build a line further up the Tame Valley from Stalybridge, I don't know what stopped them. Exchange yard at Diggle, anyone?😁

17 hours ago, 33C said:

This is the key I believe. A shop/meeting place/small cafe environment. Like minded individuals, relaxing, modelling, buying! There were three or four of these places in the high street, always popular and busy hubs of the community. The council whacks up the rent "to attract big names", this never happens and these big spaces sit empty and locked up. 

 

I seriously believe that ANYTHING that makes people happy, the council likes to trample on. Prove me wrong.

The Warhammer shop is a quarter of the size it was and you have to look for it...the shop it was in was empty for ages and is now a charity shop...

I would point out out that the council has no powers to up the rent on a business premises unless they own it. Businesss rates have been set by central government since about 2013 (unless that's been changed since), and local authorities receive a proportion back in their ever - shrinking rate support grant.

On 14/10/2023 at 16:06, JeffP said:

Sad photos of Weekday Cross and Ilkeley.

Ilkeston!

21 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... just like every cyclist ever has always stopped at a red traffic light ! ................................... hmmmmm ..........................

.....and motorists

On 08/10/2023 at 23:32, billbedford said:

 

I think that this article will give you at least part of the answer.

That is one hell of an article!

On 06/10/2023 at 15:50, Steamport Southport said:

 

Don't read it, listen to it!

 

You will have even less faith in the officials...

 

About twenty people all shouting at each other and talking like they are down the boozer. Calling so called professionals "Mate" and swearing shouldn't be acceptable in such an environment. 

 

If a player swore, he would be getting sent off!

It depends. If a player missed a goal and swore (to himself, reasonably quietly), nothing might be said. If, on the other hand,our player used offensive, insulting, racist or abusive language, and/or gestures, directed at ANYONE on the field of play, they would be shown the red card and dismissed from the field. I seem to recall that actually happening a few years ago to a player who berated one of his team mates.

I've amended this to recall, many years ago, sending two players from the same team off for fighting each other towards the end of an under - 16s match. They were losing about 10 - 0 at the time, and it got to them. 

12 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

If it's only OOC to Birmingham does it need to be double track? If it's fast enough to get from one end to the other a single track shuttle service might do.

 

That would leave the other side of HS2 free for trolleybuses. Remember them? All-electric vehicles long before it was trendy. You could have a whole fleet of them, diverting off HS2 to serve local places along the route without needing to build stations or interrupt the Birmingham trains. With the addition of a battery, there would be no need to string up wires in local places, they could run into existing bus stations and connect with existing local bus services.

 

Which would remove a lot of the local traffic from the WCML, leaving paths free for trains to Manchester and the Frozen North on the original tracks.

 

Martin.

Nothing quite like a bit of satire!

J2166 hasn't canged much, physically, there's just a lot more traffic

20 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Assuming that Euston actually remains part of Phase 1, the PM seems to regard it as a separate project from OOC-Birmingham.

Without it, in my opinion, you might as well stop work on phase 1, as that almost becomes redundant as well. Panic does not make for good decision - making!

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But that is entirely contingent on Euston-HS2 being built and operational.

 

OOC doesn't/won't have sufficient capacity to take much more than half that traffic, even if potential travellers don't mind having to hump their luggage from one train to another out the the suburbs....

All the more reason to complete Phase 1 in full, then!

10 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I had 'InterCity' services in mind so 'north of Rugley' was shorthand for Stafford, Crewe, Liverpool, Stoke, Maclesfield, Stockport, Manchester, etc....

Yes. I had thought it said "Rugby". It's old age and salinity catchung up with me! Anything that didn't stop South of Stoke/Crewe/Stafford could be put on it; so all the stuff from Manchester, Liverpool, North Wales, Scotland, etc, could go onto HS2.

56 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The link to the WCML at Handsacre is part of phase 1 - not phase2!

 

Unlike Euston (for which the Government is demanding private sector funding) I understand the Handsacre link is still due to be completed.

 

With that link every single WCML station north of Rugley will be able to have trains running directly onto HS2

 

North of Lichfield, surely? Handsacre is just South of Rugeley. But it ought to mean Trent Valley Stations should benefit from enhanced services, yes?

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

You are correct, the Midland got backing from several other railways for the S & C in IIRC 1866, then got agreement about working at Ingleton with the LNWR so applied to abandon the S & C and their original backers cried foul and defeated the abandonment bill.  They were then faced with building the Carlisle line at the same time as the London extension to St Pancras.  It caused problems but they gritted their teeth and built a 72 mile railway through the hills without speed restrictions.   They were faced with the same problem in 1919 when they applied to abandon the second half of the West Riding Lines due to  high cost inflation during WW1.  They ended up being blackmailed by Bradford Council who objected to the abandonment bill.  The Midland ended up selling Bradford their city centre for a fraction of what it had cost them to buy in 1899.  From memory the net purchase cost had been about £1.25million and the net sale price 20 years later when values had doubled, was £187,000.  Memories of the true cost of the S & C ran deep.    

 

As to abandonment bills for HS2, section 2A  has parliamentary approval but 2B was still going through the parliamentary process.

 

Jamie

So the abandonment bill would be for part 2A?

10 minutes ago, D7063 said:

Automatic air brake equipment tonight - that two stage compressor for the 'Peak' looks a beast, from the picture it doesn't look much smaller than the Sulzer powerplant!!!!

Prepared to accept that there is nothing to gauge the scale though. A class 71,and a 73 put in an appearance too.

Their site is now - wait for it - Davies Road and Metcalfe Road!

6 hours ago, lmsforever said:

Why have mixed feelings about the bus pass ,its a wonderful means to keep traveling around your area and beyond  you have paid your taxes and this is an excellent benifit.If its an age thing dont worry no work plenty of time to do what you want when you want . I have been retired for fifteen years and life has been good of course there have been hiccups but believe me its better than being at work, One thing I would reccomend is to join your local U3A  plenty of interesting interest group,.monthly meetings with speakers and outinga .We joined our local one just after I retired and we have made good friends and have had continous fun so dont worry about retiring .

Who told you that?😊

17 minutes ago, ess1uk said:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/08/hs2-announced-transport-project-were-just-examples-says-minister

Can I come out of the rabbit hole now?

57 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Depends on the source of the 'public funding'.

 

I spent forty years designing, letting and supervising local government civil engineering contracts. The 'Contingency Sum' item at the end of the priced Bill of Quantities was invariably 10% of the foregoing items - and I had to have a bl**dy good reason at the time of Final Accounts to pay any of it!

 

The problem with central government funded contracts is that they are perceived as a bottomless honeypot. Anything and everything gets charged to them - ultra-swish site accommodation, of the size of small towns; new motorway interchanges to access them; five star hotel accommodation for senior executives on site visits; first class travel; endless consultants' fees - the list goes on, and on, and on ....

 

At one time, there was the man who wanted the hole digging, and the man who dug the hole. Nowadays, there's an army of non-productive bodies dictating when the hole must be dug, how the hole must be dug, where the muck must be placed, how the public should be prevented from falling down the hole, how the man who digs the hole should be provided for when he needs to receive himself ......

 

So - not a big surprise that organising the digging of the hole costs multiples of the cost of actually digging the hole!!

 

CJI.

Surely the consultants' fees, and the extra to dig the hole today would be included in the budget, anyway. Are we saying the people who are overseeing the financial aspects are keeping an overview of where the money is going (yeah, right!). My thoughts on this are that there is stuff that wasn't included inthe original budget (tunnels under the Chilterns springs to mind), delays in starting the thing , resulting in increased land purchase values, inflation, and so on.