MacDuff999

Perhaps more relevant to this thread, could anyone who has built a DJH - perhaps specifically Ivatt version - 'Coronation', tell me where part 18 should go. It is described as tender top back support, and shown on diagram page 2, just forward of the tender back plate. The 'instructions' give no idea where exactly it should go, and merely say 'as shown'. As shown where? Should it be laminated to the tender back (although it is a W/M part), to support that and the extremity of the heavy top section, or soldered a little further forward, just behind the slots for the rear tender wheels, to give perhaps more balanced support to the W/M top casting? Advise please. Ian.

Thanks very much gents for the information and comments (and the photos Terry), which will help me progress the 3 models I have to work on. I have solved one tender issue though. As I recently acquired a rather nice Wrenn 'City of Birmingham', I realised that its tender would be the correct type to go with my H/D body, Comet chassis ' Duchess of Montrose' to be, with a little tweaking. I will then need only 2 Comet de-streamlined tenders for 46224 and 46238. I found out yesterday, that Titfield Thunderbolt Bookshop has 1 copy of the LMS Loco Profiles Photographic Supplement in stock. I will likely send for that to supplement my prototype images resource, to make sure I get as much detail right as possible on the models. Ian.

What kind of wheels are fitted Chris, are they Markits/Gibsons for example? In which case, do they work with the H/D crankpins. so you don't have to change the rods etc? Ian.

My mistake about tenders Terry; I hadn't looked closely enough when I got the loco, as I was more focused on the loco itself. Or I need new glasses! I have drilled through the outer frame extension slots now, but they will look somewhat better when the loco is weathered. I am curious how you fixed the Comet rear frame extensions to the H/D loco; it looks as though you fitted a Comet pony truck as well. I will probably be ordering the 'Princess' drivers for the H/D/Comet 'Duchess' later this week, so I should be able to post a photo of the fully-wheeled chassis under the H/D body, to give a better idea how it will look together. How well or otherwise does the H/D loco look against a Comet tender on its original wheels? Is there quite a discrepancy in heights? I am a bit cautious about changing the drivers to more scale diameter ones, and what might be involved regarding any changes to the valve gear.

Well yes, perhaps a kit would be a better option Cypherman, saving some time and a fair amount of fettling. As I am sure we all realise though, there is a trade-off between time and cost; especially as a DJH kit, new, is now north of £200, without wheels etc. In the end, it all comes down to the level of accuracy you want - and can afford - in your models. The points you make Terry, are I think well-made, but at this stage at least, I can live with the HD/Wrenn models with just a few easier and quicker changes. I may have mentioned I have already replaced the bogie wheels on 'City of London' (soon to become 'Carlisle'), and I will find a way to neatly attach a pair of screw couplings. I have also noticed that the slot in the rear outer frame extensions over the pony truck are marked but filled in, so I am going to carefully try and open them out, so they look more like the real thing. The loco will also really need a Comet de-streamlined tender, as the ones made and attached by H/D are from the 8F, and are rivetted, so certainly not right. I am looking at using 6'6" 'Princess Royal' wheels Terry, having obtained a 27mm set for the DJH loco, and they look decidedly tight. Not ordered them from Markits yet though. The body of the DJH loco, incidentally, was already quite nicely assembled when I acquired it, so I am reluctant to start making any significant changes to it. Ian.

Terry, or anyone, have you ever replaced the flangeless centre driver on a H/D model?

OK thanks Richard. I just wasn't sure exactly what kind of metal it was. Ian.

Here is a photo (not best focus) of a P3 Wrenn model of 'City of London', in rather good condition. It runs smoothly and quietly too. I think replacing the original bogie/tender wheels with the scale versions from Markits does make a difference to its appearance, for a start. The tender will have to be replaced by a Comet version, as it is the wrong type for what I intend, in due course, to be number 46238 'City of Carlisle'. I am undecided at the moment, whether it is worth changing the smoke deflectors and perhaps handrails. Have you, Terry, or any of the other contributors to this (or Iain's Camden ) thread, any experience in trying to solder detail items to a H/D body? I may be mistaken, but would one be successful in doing that, as if it were done a la white metal kit? I had thought of perhaps adding turned buffers too, but is that going too far and gilding a plastic spoon?

First stage photo of the H/D 'Duchess' body on the basic Comet chassis, after having arranged the front and rear fixing points for it. Albeit not strictly within the topic, also a photo of the DJH Ivatt variant atmore or less the same stage.

Well folks, following Iain's post re smoke deflectors, I got out my 'wrong' pair from Comet, and set them against both H/D and DJH bodies. Albeit not flexed to reflect the lower-part angle inwards towards the smokebox, they seemed about the right height, OK within what Terry reports as a discrepancy of 0.03mm. in comparison with most other suppliers.

Iain, I checked some photos in the LMS Profile book, as well as my own collection of 'Coronations' on a memory stick. 'Duchess of Montrose' has, in 2/3 instances, the 'wrong' type of deflectors (based on the Comet item description) during my chosen time period. So, having bought the 'correct' type from Mr Wizard, I will now need to re-order set of the ones which appear in the photographs! Regarding the DJH kit, all things considered, I will not deviate from the intended loco type now, and will build the kit as number 46256 'Sir William' etc. The shed allocation might be a bit of a stretch, but never mind. I decided not to go ahead, partly as I may have another candidate for 46224 'Princess Alexandra', so that will (hopefully) in the fullness of time, give me 4 of the class! They were one of my clear favourite classes in the 50's anyway. I have almost sorted out the body fixings to attach the H/D body to the Comet chassis now Terry, so I might post a photo or two soon, of progress so far.

Just read your latest post Iain, regarding your 'stored' Coronations not yet built. So you would use Comet smoke deflectors instead of the DJH? I haven't got round to doing anything with the body really yet, although I have wondered whether Gibson handrail knobs with 0.45mm wire, for example, might be a little under scale? I shall certainly need to fill and re-drill the handrail knob holes on the H/D body, for which I do have Comet smoke deflectors. Ian.

On the subject of tenders, I had forgotten - in my response to your comments gents - that I would be building a (I would have thought correct) de-streamlined Comet type behind the DJH loco. My plan was then to use the DJH tender with another member of the mainstream class, but Iain's comment about the roller bearing axle boxes alerted me to something I had overlooked, That then puts one or two other things back in the melting pot, unless I acquire and build another Comet tender for the H/D bodied 'Duchess', thus leaving the DJH one as spare in effect. Ian.

Thanks Terry. I will take a careful look at everything, and not rush into any major changes without due consideration. There is a chance I may end up not making the change at all, but it will be a considered decision, after reading your two posts, and looking carefully at the various parts and tasks which would be involved. Ian.

Morning Iain, and thanks for your observations. I am aware of the differences between certain parts of the main class design, and the Ivatt variant, although I had not picked up on the tender roller bearing axle boxes issue. I had recognised the different cab sides issue, and that of the cab profile, hence my intention to use only the actual sides from the Comet Stanier cab etch. I have already acquired, assembled and fitted a Comet replacement pony truck and bogie, which seems to work more or less OK, although I think the controlling arm on the pony truck needs a little 'tweaking', for the axle boxes to assume a fully horizontal attitude. I also have a Comet detail etch for the correct frame extensions, which I hope will fit without too much hassle. I ditched the DJH cast pony truck, after trying to get the same arm on it gently persuaded to the correct angle, to fit to the chassis pivot point correctly. Needless to say, it unfortunately fractured! I am trying to take this project very much in a step by step way, without blundering on and making a 'cats' of it. I want to see if I can get as close as I can to the original design, without using much, if any, modeller's licence. I will need to address the issue of the tender frames though, and the solution you mention of Comet frames, would likely be the first thing I would think of as a way out. I shall take it slowly, as I say, and perhaps post the odd photo as things move along. Also, thanks for your photos Cypherman, that looks quite tidy. Ian.

Thanks for your replies and comments Iain and Terry. Iain, I did make sure that, having acquired the H/D Duchess body, I physically checked the frame dimensions with it, when I subsequently bought the Comet chassis kit. The match is pretty good, and having almost completed the assembly of the basic Comet chassis, it should only require a little dressing of the frames just behind the buffer beam to achieve a snug fit. And somehow align the front chassis spacer with the body fixing hole on top of where the steam chest would be. From what you say regarding the tender, maybe 16mm wheels would save a certain amount of hassle. As far as your questions go Terry, as my layout does not include a main line, my 'Coronations' will not be hauling long, heavy trains. I do, nonetheless, appreciate the weight of these locos, but certainly don't anticipate fitting scale wheels to the H/D models at this stage. The first 'Duchess' I started work on is a H/D body on a Comet chassis, and will eventually (I hope) appear as 46232 'Duchess of Montrose', drawing the non-streamlined tender from a DJH kit. The DJH kit loco body is planned to become 46224 'Princess Alexandra', drawing a Comet de-streamlined tender. My acquisition of the LMS Loco Profile book on the class, has enlightened me quite a bit re the various tender types drawn by the class. The DJH kit is of an Ivatt variant, so it is perhaps going to be a bit challenging for me to change the relevant cab sides to those of an earlier series loco, by using the sides from a Comet Stanier cab etch, supplemented by suitable width spare etch, to fill any gap in the lower front edge cab side trimming. My layout is based on a small part of the ex-Caledonian route from Edinburgh to Glasgow/Carstairs, and these Pacifics will be 'visitors' from 66A Polmadie, both green. The rather nice Wrenn model I recently acquired, that of the plastic tender wheels, will likely be a red 46238 'City of Carlisle', an English loco from 12B Upperby. I had thought of back-to-back as something to check Terry, but I seem to have mislaid my gauge!! Ian.

Just to let you know Terry, that I have posted on the Motive Power for Camden thread, details of a new thread I have started under the heading 'Up-grading Hornby-Dublo and Wrenn 'Duchesses', in the modifying /up-grading RTR models category. This is so that I can solicit help & advice from more experienced modellers, without hi-jacking someone else's thread on a different core topic. Please feel free to access my thread, and make any suggestions you think will help to solve a niggly issue I have with a recently-acquired 'Duchess'. Thanks.

I am very conscious Iain , and contributors to the Camden Shed thread that I have to some degree hi-jacked the thread to solicit information and advice on particular aspects of loco building, especially of 'Coronation' class models. As I am again searching for advice on a related topic, I have started a new thread under the heading 'Up-grading Hornby-Dublo and Wrenn 'Duchesses', so as not to interfere any further with the core subject of Iain's excellent thread on his layout. Please feel free to access the thread gents, and offer suggested solutions, as I would welcome any advice on the best way to solve the issue which I currently need to fix. Thanks. Ian.

I have recently started to add one or two Stanier 'Coronation' Pacifics to my loco stud. Although one of the first was a DJH Ivatt variant kit, which is slowly coming together, I have also started to build a Comet chassis, which I intend to match with a H/D 'Duchess'. The third and (I think final) addition has just arrived in the post - a very nice Wrenn 'City of London'. The loco (on yard-length test track) runs smoothly and quietly, and is in very good cosmetic condition. The only fly in the ointment, so to speak, is that it has plastic wheels on the tender, which keeps de-railing. I had intended to change the plastic wheels anyway, (something I knew about before I decided to acquire the loco) but in order to do this, it will mean removing the tender sub-frame which holds the wheels. The options then, as far as I can see, are to a) assemble a Comet sub-chassis kit of the relevant type, and fix it into the H/D tender chassis, or b) to forget the H/D tender altogether, and obtain and build a Comet kit of the right type. I obviously need to make sure that the tender running quality is good, to match with that of the loco. It is a pity though, as the tender itself is in really quite good condition. Any thoughts or suggestions from modellers with experience of similar situations welcome.

Thanks very much for that useful tip. Ian.

Thanks for that information Iain. I did get a brief, but sufficiently clear reply from DJH, which enabled me to 'join up the dots' as it were on the exploded assembly diagrams. I do tend to prefer - by virtue of what relatively little kit-building I have done to date - to screw bolts from below into nuts usually soldered to a suitably located spacer or part of the superstructure, rather than the other way round. Having followed the instructions now, in respect to the rear pony truck, I find the M2 bolt extends below the level of the rear driving wheel; the exploded diagram does indicate that you are supposed to cut it shorter, but am not sure of how this might be done without damaging the thread, to still enable you to remove the truck as necessary at some future date. I will need to rummage in my box of fixing bits, to see if I have any M2's which are a little shorter. Ian.

That's really useful information Terry, thanks. On a related matter, I am in the early stages of building a DJH K90 kit - the Ivatt variant of the Stanier 'Coronation' design. I have just had to send an e-mail to DJH asking for clarification as to where on the chassis the pivot points are for the front bogie and rear pony truck, as neither the written instructions nor the exploded drawing - mainly page 5 - show it clearly. Nor where the body fixing screw (part 130 I think) attaches. If you have built a DJH 'Coronation' kit, perhaps you are able to answer these questions for me - just in case I can't get some timely assistance from the kit maker? Grateful for some help, if you are able. Ian.

Anyone have a particular recommendation in terms of motor/gearbox for the DJH Duchess from their experience?

Gibson do some brakes with plastic blocks I think, so there is less risk of shorts. Don't know if they might make a difference? I will assess the possibilities when I get the wheels and try them on the chassis.

Thanks for your prompt replies gents. I will order the correct scale wheels then Mike. No news on the 'Princess' etch at the moment I take it. Ian.