Tallpaul69

Hi Folks, My Accurascale Manor, 7810, arrived today. Have yet to unpack it, hope to get to it this weekend. I was pleased to see the Rapido announcements today, and I am tempted by the O1, despite it being used well outside my layouts Buckinghamshire area! Work continues to finalise what might be installed on the "Automation" front. @5BarVThas been doing sterling work on my behalf. Currently I am looking at how the six "automated" trains might be integrated into the "hourly" timetable that I posted a draft of here in August. Siding capacity is testing but I have managed to work into loops a couple of the fiddle yard sidings in the new board that will link the two layouts, and that will help. The jury is still out on the iTrain/ TrainController decision, but things are perhaps tipping back in iTrain's favour. Next week I need to work out the logistics of getting to Warley mainly by train, and if they suit, to get my ticket booked. More updates soon, Paul

So how might the operation of my six trains run with iTrain? As I see it:- We will assume as a starting point that the details if the six trains and their locomotives are in the iTrain memory, and that a program to run the six trains is in the appropriate system memory. The Man/Auto switch is in the Man position. So we would need to move(drag?) Train 1 icon into the Down Loop 3 block above, followed by the same action with the other two down trains. Then we move Train 4 icon to the Up loop 1 block above, followed by the same action for the other two up trains. Next we need to check that the points in the up and down lines other than those at the ends of the six loops are set for through working and correct any that are not. If we now change the Man/Auto switch to Auto, train 1 should start to move out of Down Loop1 block clock wise round the down track. The Train 1 name will stay in the Down Loop 1 block until Train 1 is detected at the Down arrival block, when train 1 will appear in that block. As the train moves on, Train 1 will disappear from the Down Arrival block and appear in the Down Platform block. It will stay there until Train 1 returns to Down Loop 1 when it will disappear from the Down Platform block and reappear in the Down Loop 1 Block. As I prefer the up and down trains not to pass each other in the station platforms, Up train 1 will be appropriately timed in the system to depart the UP Loop 1 block just before Down train 1 returns to Down Loop 1 Block. This train will then proceed round the Up track with indications in the Blocks appearing and disappearing according to whether the train is inside or outside a block. During this sequence manual operation will take place in the areas beyond the red bars The speed of the trains will have been set in the system according to the type of train it is. When all six trains have taken a trip round the circuits , the Man/Auto switch can be returned to Man to allow manual working to resume or the Next switch used to repeat the sequence (?) Depending on what the next action to take place will be, we may need to remove the six train icons from the six loop blocks before changing from Auto to Manual. I have probably forgotten something, so please tell me what I have left out? Cheers Paul

Hi All, In my last post I said I would look back through the thread to locate other things raised as issues:- A few posts back, I identified some issues myself, but things move on and i think these can be removed as issues:- So I raised these Problems:- 1) Need to have sidings dedicated to holding the "automatic" trains while the loops on the continuous run are used for other trains. Answer:- Those trains will need to be somewhere when not on the continuous run, but that would be true in wholly manual operation. However, these sidings need not be part of the "automated" zone, so these trains will need to be run to the continuous run loops manually before "automatic" operation commences. 2) Impracticality of the need for a large screen Laptop that can be operated from my operating position, because of the complexity of the iTrain screen, and the need to read and take action from a number of drop down menus; rather than using a handheld mini. Answer:- I need to flesh out the details, but essentially:- Wall mount a large screen. This to display schematic of "automated" continuous run and fiddleyard loops. Use laptop to enter details necessary to run trains (layout, locomotives, trains, etc.) before running trains manually or automatically. Use handheld for throttles. 3) cost of implementation - including installation of feedbacks, cost of feedback multiplexers, doubling of labour costs if I change builder to a suggested builder. Answer:- stay with current builder 4) Possible delay in building from above? Answer:- no delay if I stay with current builder. So together with my comments in my last posting, I am now a lot more positive about a way forward to give me the degree of automation I need using the blocks put forward by @5BarVT, bearing in mind there will be no movement along the tracks which his diagram showed with a red bar, during "automatic" operation. Cheers for now, Paul

Andy, Life is full of issues, but which are important to me in my part automated railway? These are my off the top of my head suggested Issue, which would be important to the person raising them if they were operating my system:- 1) Difficult to expand system, without major expense, lack of feedbacks means work under baseboards. Answer:- By the time I have the current expansion completed and the system up and running, it is unlikely that I will want further automation. 2) Likely that points in the middle of a block will be by mistake changed causing failure. Answer:- apart from testing, system will be worked to a timetable, which will include checks of settings before automatic operation starts. Automatic operation will account for some 10-15% of operating time. 3) Trains will disappear out of automated zone and in the system display be stuck in last block on zone. Answer:- The automatic zone is a continuous run. Trains will only be moved out of the zone in manual operations when the automation is switched off. Manual operations of trains during automatic operation will only be in areas outside the zone. In the next couple of days I will go back through this thread to identify and answer other issues raised by contributors. Cheers for now, Paul

But, price of iTrain is immaterial if it will not do what I need and TC can!

Hello everyone, Our house is slowly returning to normal after the weekend Family Invasion, so I can pen a quick update! It was a great weekend, and everyone enjoyed themselves. T'other Paul has posted onto my Automation thread a suggestion for automating the section of the layout that I want to run on its own while I do other things, but the iTrain community, have yet to respond. iTrain being my favoured software. So I am thinking of Train controller which Paul uses as an alternative although it costs more. Watch this space, updates to follow (I hope!). Cheers for now, Paul

Hi T'other Paul, I have returned to normal communication after our family weekend, which is why I didn't comment on this earlier. The above hits the nail on the head as far as i am concerned, but it is a shame no one has commented! I can think of two reasons for this ;- 1) The tTrain community have never thought of this , so have no idea if it works, or how to respond! or:- 2) They are fed up with us and hope that if they ignore us we will go away! For my part, this seems to suggest the score is TrainController 1- iTrain 0 So maybe I should concentrate on TrainController? Cheers Paul

Thanks Paul, some good thoughts there. And many thanks also for the plans you have been doing, which, I need to explain to the rest of the readers, put onto one schematic plan my three plans, Bradenham (the continuous run), Wycombe End, (the terminal layout) , and "New Board 2" (the new, yet to be made, board linking the other two). This update is just a quick one as we have family staying this weekend and so I will not get an opportunity to post much else until sometime next week. Progress on the possible automation of one set of six trains to run while I manually perform other tasks has been slow, although I am hopeful that Paul (5BarVT)' involvement will get things moving. I had hoped my 7810 Manor would show this week, but as of yesterday my order at Rails was still outstanding. However, Accurascale's posting on the Manor thread to the effect that all Model Shop orders and individual orders would despatch this week, leads me to hope I might see it by the end of next week! This of course depends on Rails turn round time! From my point of view, another underwhelming list this week of new models from Bachmann, but maybe there will be a bumper issue for the New Year. Cheers for now, Paul

I am sorry Andy that you find my reply somewhat disingenuous and to a point insulting, because that is exactly how I feel about some of the advice I have received. In reply, here are a few observations:- OK, I may have used the word "automation" where I was really referring to "installing detection" I do understand the difference between the two. I am sure there are things that I know a lot more than you about, but I would not moan at you for using the wrong term and conclude from that that you do not understand that subject. If my initial post was quite clear, why was someone getting hot under the collar and accusing me of moving the goalposts when I posted the detail of the board that has yet to be built? I used PC software all my working life, but of course some of that was the multimillion dollar budget packages, which are a different thing to low budget model railway software. However, some of it was a tad clunky, especially fifty years ago, compared with current offerings. I do not find the pc screens confusing, I merely cannot position a laptop in my railway room in the same operating position as I would adopt in my work or home office desk. I could go on, but life is too short, so we will just agree to differ!! Enjoy your modelling, what ever your enthusiasm! Paul

Hi There, I hope you don't mind me explaining something of my interests and situation, so that you may better understand why I have said what I have said, and why I want to do/ cannot do certain courses of action. I said:- I suppose also I just don't see the point of the cost and complication of a whole load of feedbacks that I am unlikely to use because they are in places I only intend to use manually. I perhaps more correctly should have said:- I suppose also I just don't see the point of the cost and complication of a whole load of feedbacks that I am unlikely to want to drive trains automatically on because they are in places I only intend to use manually. Yes, If I had a friend to operate with me then perhaps that would be a better solution, but I don't! I don't belong to any clubs mainly because I cannot get to meetings which are mainly in the evenings. I don't now drive, I can't afford taxis, there are no appropriate buses, and I now dislike the dark whereas once I enjoyed it, so that solution isn't open to me! You said:- You therefore need to let the computer 'see' the trains that you want it to drive, 'see' the track that you want it to drive those trains on, but also 'see' anything that you might want to manually drive onto these tracks and which will therefore conflict with what the software thought was happening. That's where it gets to the point of needing to install feedbacks across most of the layout. This is true if you want to mix automatic working and manual working on the same tracks at the same time. I cant see wanting to do this, I anticipate having automated periods (except for shunting in sidings), followed by fully manual periods. I am not a layout builder, my interest is in operation, so I only want to hand to the computer routine operations while I do more interesting manual operations. You also said:- It appears that you want to limit what the software is allowed to do, because you're trying to limit it to only drive those six trains (hence why you can't identify other benefits). It seems to me that the audience could have helped by suggesting those benefits?? I won't bore everyone by going on any more! I hope the above helps folks understand me better? Cheers Paul

Hey folks, Its funny how on the one hand I am told that detection sections are so easy you just require them everywhere on your layout and everything will be fine, and then on the other I am told that a layout builder might not be able to interpret my requirements! Its a shame that a number of people instead of asking me about other aspects of my layout and how I intend to operate it so as to encourage me to go for automation by illustrating to me what other beneficial uses I might find for automation, other than running my six trains while i do other things on the layout, chose instead to preach to me that I was foolish because I did not accept their dictates to install full automation without question! Never mind, railway modelling is a broad church, we cannot possibly agree on all things, so we will agree to disagree. When I find a way to achieve what I want to achieve within the budget i think appropriate, I will be glad that this turned out to be a blind alley. Cheers all, Paul

Iain, In my very first posting in this thread I detailed the three elements of my layout, so there being a board such as I have just posted should not be a surprise to you, even though you did not know the detail! Of course, you could have asked me to post track plans at that stage, but you didn't? Ah well, since I have such little understanding, and am unwilling to accept everything I am told without question, it is Just as well I am almost decided not to proceed with "Automation" isn't it? Cheers Paul

What are the benefits to me and the problems of automatic operation on my layout? Benefits 1) I can run three trains in each direction round my continuous circuit while I concentrate on activities such as shunting the station yard. 2) Er............ Problems 1) Need to have sidings dedicated to holding the "automatic" trains while the loops on the continuous run are used for other trains. 2)Impracticality of the need for a large screen Laptop that can be operated from my operating position, because of the complexity of the iTrain screen, and the need to read and take action from a number of drop down menus; rather than using a handheld mini. 3) cost of implementation - including installation of feedbacks, cost of feedback multiplexers, doubling of labour costs if I change builder to a suggested builder. 4) Possible delay in building from above? The modification to the operating schedule posted above will look like this:- Start with Manual running to reflect the early morning start up of trains, then continue with higher density of traffic in the morning rush hour. (Delete:-End the manual period by clearing the six loops for the automated trains. Run the six Automated trains out of their board 2 sidings into the six loops. Proceed with Automated running of the six trains ) Substitute Run a train from a board 2 sidings into the down (clockwise) loops. Run a train from another board 2 siding (or the terminal station) to an up (anticlockwise) loop. run loco round train. Run the two above trains round the circuit a number of times. While they run, undertake shunting of stock dropped into station yard by earlier manual trains. Stop circuiting trains in loops and/or Return automated trains to their board 2 sidings Undertake middle of the day manual running etc. repeat the above moves Resume manual operation for afternoon rush hour and evening run down of services, also run manually night freights. The above sequence would take several operating sessions. The second session would take up where the first left off etc.etc. So the main difference is that trains tail chase while shunting etc. carried out. I can live with that! This is just first thoughts, I will update the pros and cons as thoughts come to me! Cheers Paul

Yes, I was running with 8 way modules! I am currently doing a cost benefit analysis of going with iTrain and automation. It doesn't look good, as the benefits don't fill me with enthusiasm! There are lots of more beneficial things I could spend the money on. Maybe someone can give me an unbiased view?

Ian, taking things in reverse order:- I don't have anywhere to build even a test track, or to store it, hence my thinking of a folding board. I don't think any one makes an off the shelf one? In my position, I have to pass any construction over to others. It has worked so far, Covid being the worse problem! Your thoughts on inter weaving automatic and manual operation sound just great. However, several postings to this thread have, it appears to me, implied that it can't be done. Yes, I may have to have more sensors than I initially thought, it just seems a waste of time, effort, and money to put in a lot that I am never likely to use. Where is the fun in automated shunting, I might as well sit in the comfort of my living room and watch railway videos on my large screen TV! So if everyone agrees it can be done, why is there nothing on the videos (perhaps it is hidden in the 30 somthing episode?). Please can everyone confirm, yes, it can be done, (you may add provisos!), just to put my mind at rest? (Apart from you and Paul who say it can!) Many thanks everyone, in advance, for the continued input (even those things I don't agree with!) Cheers for now Paul

Hi Paul, Attached is the promised plan of the New Board 2 which will link the continuous run layout to the terminal layout, by replacing the current terminal layout fiddle yard with a slightly larger board that has a revised fiddle yard. Simplistically, the fiddle yard is turned round to face the continuous run rather than the terminal. There are in addition more sidings and a turntable. I am proposing that the group of 4 sidings that start in the centre bottom of the plan, plus one of the loops leading to them and the siding to the left of that loop are the six sidings to hold the six "automated" trains when they are not on the continuous run. I cannot use both loops for this as I need to keep one clear for access to the turntable. They have to be off the continuous run when I am running the layout manually as I need the loops for other trains. I had been planning to use the 4 sidings as the area to add to/take off stock on the layout, but I can't work out anywhere else to give the six "automated" trains their own space. Hopefully, I can still use these sidings to move the stock but probably this is not allowed by iTrain, in which case I will have to do it adjacent to the station. Not ideal!! So a running sequence would look like this:- Start with Manual running to reflect the early morning start up of trains, then continue with higher density of traffic in the morning rush hour. End the manual period by clearing the six loops for the automated trains. Run the six Automated trains out of their board 2 sidings into the six loops. Proceed with Automated running of the six trains While they run, undertake shunting of stock dropped into station yard by earlier manual trains. Stop Automated running. Return automated trains to their board 2 sidings Undertake middle of the day manual running Clear the six loops ready for automated running. Repeat earlier Automated running sequence (hopefully with changed locos from earlier) Undertake further shunting etc. Return automated trains to their Board 2 sidings. Resume manual operation for afternoon rush hour and evening run down of services, also run manually night freights. The above sequence would take several operating sessions. The second session would take up where the first left off etc.etc. By the way, Iain doesn't think your idea for the goods yard will work, so I am unsure how to proceed. Never mind, I expect something will turn up! Cheers Paul

Hi Iain, You mean the cost of a module for feedbacks across the station yard is around £80. I estimate that the number of feedbacks across the whole layout, by which I mean the continuous run, the currently separate terminal layout, and the to be made new board 2 which will link the above two, is at least 90! - so 12 modules. Here is the layout, which you haven't seen before, of the new board 2. I have omitted a number of sidings for clarity. I am also putting up this layout as promised in my response to Paul's posting last night. I will comment in detail separately on ITGs last posting, but what he says appears to be compatible with running manual and automated trains alongside each other, which is what I am trying to achieve. His and Paul's postings seem to me to be the only ones that suggest this is possible. But maybe I am just not understanding some of the posts, for which I apologise. I suppose also I just don't see the point of the cost and complication of a whole load of feedbacks that I am unlikely to use because they are in places I only intend to use manually. This applies to at least half of the above figure of 90 feedbacks! So that means 6 modules I won't use - say £500? plus of course the wiring. Cheers for now, Paul

If I stick to the Z21 command station, probably the Roco units?

Thanks Paul, this looks like a workable set of solutions:- I do have to work out how I get the IN and OUT Blocks to be long enough to hold the longest train that any of the six loops at the top of the layout can hold. As planned at the moment they could only be about 3 Mk1 lengths after the start of the IN and OUT blocks, as beyond that is a double junction from where one double track leads into a loop then on by single track to the scenic terminal board, and the other double track leads to a loop beyond which there is a set of fiddle yard sidings and a point off to a turntable. So I think the IN and OUT Blocks will have to extend through the double junction to the loop beyond (the one that leads to the further fiddle yard sidings. The section between the continuous run boards and the scenic terminal board including the additional fiddle yard sidings has not yet been built, so can be rejigged, although I am concerned not to loose the fiddle yard sidings as this would reduce the number of trains that the layout can hold and for a mainline it could be argued that this number is quite small! I will post a sketch of the proposed tracks in this area tomorrow. I need to label it in line with the titles used above. At the moment there are notes which have only meaning to me! So please hold any comments on the above until you see this new plan. With regard to the station yard, I suggest the IN/OUT track would be that between two points and running in-between S14 and S13 on the above plan. Many thanks Paul

Iain and Paul, Thanks for bearing with me, I realise I am a pain constantly querying what is posted, but I have only one chance to get this right! I f funds are wasted on things that don't do what I expect, then I am stuck! So:- Iain, A few posts ago you said:- "I suggest that your best route to solve your issues is to find someone who is operating automation, and I would actually stick with someone planning to use your chosen software because whilst the end result is the same the modus operando between all the programs is different and 'understanding' the wrong one will only add to your confusion in achieving your objective." I agree that such a course of action would be beneficial. However, it is easier said than done. Not being a member of a club, and being situated where those that are in my area have club meet nights that are quite difficult to get to not being able to drive, and bus services finishing quite early in the evening, I don't think it works. So I must soldier on! I am sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, but I have learnt the hard way that it is often what isn't said or is implied, that is more important than what is plainly said. Paul, thanks for your latest input, what you suggest seems a sensible and pragmatic way forward. I intend to work on that basis, maybe I have to change software? Another suggestion, I think from ITG, was a small test layout, and I am currently looking for someone to do this for me. Last night I had decided to pack in the iTrain videos, but maybe I will give them another go, and continue to post here any problems I find, in the hope someone can help me out? Please keep the comments coming, Best regards Paul

Iain, That sounds like you are saying that I have to automate the whole layout or not at all, and either run it all under automation or all manually, not part and part as I wanted? I hope I am misunderstanding you? If, I am not, then I don't think automation is for me! I will manage without the automatic circulating trains while I carry out shunting or other manoeuvres manually. The manual aspects provide the main enjoyment, not watching the whole thing run automatically! Thanks for your and everyone's help, Cheers Paul

Iain, it depends on the points relevance to my thread! Pauls reference to Traincontroller seemed a useful illustration, so I thought it was relevant. Arguments about different ways to interface with JMRI don't seem relevant to me? Yes, thread drift is something we have to put up with, but surely there is no harm in gently, and politely trying to pull things back on topic! Cheers Paul

OK Iain, I thought that the feedbacks needed might be less now as I am looking at limited automation rather than the full automation of two years ago, but I guess I can work out most of what needs deleting such as in the station yard! At the time I asked you to look at it, I was not aware that I needed to have feedbacks in track where there are points even if they are not going to be used under my automation. Cheers Paul

Nigel, Iain and David, and anyone else interested in ins and outs of running JMRI:- Yet another input to my thread on "Can I Automate my Fiddle yard?", that as far as i can see adds nothing to my knowledge, as this is not something I am considering using. So can I politely suggest you start a separate thread on the subject? Many thanks Paul

Hi All, I am making this request because I am no baseboard or layout builder. I have two layouts built for me by professional builders that a third builder is going to integrate for me. I am examining whether I should have him include wiring etc. for automation. It has been suggested to me I need an automation test track to avoid costly mistakes on the main integration project. This needs to be say, a 6ft x4ft surface, foldable on itself to 2x 3ft x 4ft size to protect the track etc . in storage. I have nowhere to place it permanently! The track(code 100) needs to be a single track oval, with a loop on one long side. There needs to be c6 sidings connected to the other long side from the loop, three facing in each direction on the circuit of track. All electrics (DCC), point motors and current measurement wiring for train location must be fitted. I will supply the command station, iTrack software, laptop etc. I suggest track etc. is on cork base. No signals, scenics, or ballasting etc. needed. Any queries please PM me. I need the layout complete and delivered to me in Leighton Buzzard (South Bedfordshire) before the beginning of 2024. Many thanks Paul