Tallpaul69

Good Afternoon everyone, Ij my last post I said i would put up a plan of the layout and give some details of the automation i wanted to achieve. So here is the layout. This is the current layout, there will be an additional loop and sidings added at the top of the layout so that there are three tracks in the fiddle yard in each direction. At the beginning of a session the trains that will later work automatically are in the fiddle yard or the branch terminally that are accessed via the double junction at the left side of the plan. Firstly, a freight train will proceed under manual control from the or terminal wrong road via the double junction to the middle siding on the lower set of three loops (which I will call the Up loops. On arrival I will run its loco round it via the top of the up loops and reverse the train so it is in its loop. All setting of the points will be done manually . Next I will follow a similar procedure with another freight , but this time working right road to the middle of the upper(or Down sidings. The loco on this train will not need to run round . Next another Up train will follow the same procedure as the first up train. Then another Down train will follow a similar procedure to the first down train. The final Up train will be a DMU so will follow a similar procedure to the first two Ip trains, except no running round will be required because it will be a DMU (or sometimes an Auto train!) With the six loops having each a train I would want to turn a switch, press a button, or click on a button on the screen to set the automation in train. First a down train will circuit the continuous run, non stop, back to its initial loop. While it is in motion an Up train will start to circulate, the timing being such that the two trains do not pass in the station platforms . Different types of train will run at different speeds Once all six trains have completed their circulations, I will have two options:- 1) repeat the above. 2) return to manual control and return the six trains to the fiddle yard and terminal in a reverse of the initial procedure. I might then repeat the exercise with a different set of six trains or continue with manual control which might involve some of the six trains. I appreciate all trains used automatically will need to be detailed in iTrain. I hope this makes sense to you readers? Cheers Paul

Hi Paul, Thanks for the above, that's really helpful. Talking of DMUs, how do you deal with end car driven ones and centre car driven ones, in the same loop or siding (at different times)? Is it best to divide the loop/siding into three to cope with the three positions that the motor might be in - front car, centre car or rear car? Your point about changing traction is a fair one, but I guess having "trains" that have a "loco" plus "Express1", or "Express2", or "Freight1" or "Freight2", I can manage! In my next post I will put up a plan of the round and round element of the layout to explain in more detail how I want to use the automation and also run the same trains manually. Cheers for now Paul

Has anyone yet received a sound fitted 7810 Draycott Manor , ordered direct from Accurascale or or like me, via Rails? Cheers

I hope everyone is ready for Halloween? On the modelling front I am just starting to get to grips with iTrajn software, which seems from responses on my fiddle yard automation thread to be the most recommended for model railway automation. However, to get to understand this screen I have a course of 30+ videos on Youtube, each 15-20 minutes long to plough through! So far, I have looked at the first two and already I have concerns:- I had been looking to use a handheld Mini computer as my interface with iTrain, but the amount of information on the display suggests I need to use a laptop with a largish screen, which, in itself, is not a problem, it is just that I don't have anywhere handy in my Railway Room to position such a big screen without masking a chunk of the railway. And it is not just a screen, I need to be able to use the computer, so I can't put it on the wall. Secondly, the second video suggests i have to input details of every item of rollingstock on the layout as well as details of the engines, signals, every length of track and point, never mind uncouplers and anything else attached to the railway. I am hoping that further into the videos I will find that for my limited use some data is not necessary and that there are shortcuts to all this data entry. I will keep you updated on how I get on. But meanwhile, don't forget to put your clocks back Saturday night (in the UK that is)! Cheers for now, Paul

Thanks for your input Paul, As you can see from my last two posts, I have a few concerns! However, I will battle on and see how things go. Yes, the point about loops had occurred to me. The answer is quite tight. Another factor taking things in the direction of two blocks per loop is that for flexibility I would like sometimes to use two short trains, one perhaps being a loco only (or two) , or a loco and van, in a loop. I had already recognised as well , what I call techie drift, although what I usually observe is more a drift away from the subject, but your point is well made and I will have to watch out for "info overload"! More comment after I have watched videos 3&4, or after just 3, if i find that one heavy going! Paul

Michael, I have watched the first two so far. With there being over 30 of them, I think it could take a month or so to get threw them all! Even longer if I have to go back and re watch earlier ones for things I have forgotten. Unfortunately I am only going to be able to run iTrains online for quite a while as it is going to be next spring before my builder gets to do the layout updates. Maybe earlier if i can get a test oval built as per Ian's (ITG) post above. I have two worries from episode 2:- 1) There is so much info on the screen that in order to be able to see the detail, it will need a laptop, but I can't at the moment see where i can put a laptop in the operating area where i can see it and see the railway as well! I had been thinking of using something like a Lenovo Mini, but the screen will be too small. 2) The amount of data to be input seems horrific. Do I really have to in put the details of every wagon and coach I am going to use, and if I buy something new, stop and enter its details? Hopefully, things will be clearer as I get furth in to it! I will update my progress and thoughts like the two points above to this thread as I go along. Best regards Paul

Hi Ian, Yes I did something similar before I finally decided on DCC for my new layouts. However, that was a lot simpler, with surface wiring, and I had plenty of space in the room my layouts now fully occupy! Can you tell me what size your test layout was? An oval with a passing loop and some sidings sound about right. Given the amount of wiring and the fact that I think the only way I can house a test oval would be as a say 6ft x 4ft which folds in the middle for storage so as to protect the track, I think I have to find someone to make it for me! I will keep this thread updated on progress, Cheers Paul

Good afternoon fellow modellers. After yesterdays down beat posting, I am trying to be a bit more positive! Reviewing where I am in my quest to provide part automation to my layout I have realised that while I know a fair bit about the physical requirements, I know little very little about setting up the software. Now I know that this will vary from command centre to command centre, but as currently the Roco Z21 seems favourite and ITrain the software, for the moment I am going to investigate the use of these choices. Firstly, I am going to investigate iTrain on U tube, but any help will be gratefully received. Best regards Paul

Hi All, To try to understand this subject better, I have been watching Utube, and reading a number of threads on the subject of automation/train detection. However, the more I watch/read the more complicated everything seems! Even having decided that current monitoring seems the best method, there is plenty of complication and decisions:- how many monitoring points per section, which depends on the length of the section, and how to decide the optimum section length. Then, should points be monitored or not, you can't have points within a section, even if they are not going to be reset while the automation is running. etc. etc. And all that is before we get into the setting up! It just seems too much agro, when all I want is to sometimes run three trains in sequence clockwise on the down main line, and three more anticlockwise on the up mainline, while I perform shunting in areas clear of the main lines. Mainly I enjoy operating the points, signals, uncouplers and of course THE TRAINS! I expect it all seems very easy to those of a technical bent, but for those of us who are not, and who are more interested in operation than building, I wonder if the ends justify the considerable effort required? But maybe I have been watching/reading too much by authors who revel in the technicalities? Perhaps someone can offer me a simple step by step way through all this? I remain hopeful, but I realise I am probably going to fall back to a tail chasing scene. So trains will make a number of circuits before I interrupt my shunting, or whatever, to manually swap trains over. Sometimes this will give me a while between train changes as for instance, it will take a while for a slow unfitted freight to make two or three circuits. Cheers everyone Paul

Good Afternoon one and all, Not much going on modelling wise at the moment and its likely to be that way for the next couple of weeks with a number of family things going on. The Roco Z21 is still my favourite to replace the NCE and go to wireless operation, but no final decisions yet made. I have been looking at the possibility of including a limited amount of automation. The idea is just to allow some automated running while I am shunting or while I do scenic work. I had already planned in the above situation to run one train up and one train down while I did other things. However I realised that with the planned introduction of a third down track into the continuous run's fiddle yard, there was potential to run three trins up and three down in sequence, rather than a single up and single down train going round and round, giving greater realism. So I have started a new thread called "Can I automate my fiddle yard?"in the "computer" section of RMWeb, which has produced some useful input. I am currently waiting for Iain (WIMorrison) to produce a version of my track plan showing a suggested set of sections for current monitoring round the layout, which will provide data to run the automation. I hope everyone is progressing with there layouts, certainly things look good with the layout threads I monitor! Best regards Paul

Thanks, I will send it over by PM tomorrow. Paul

I have now looked at the TrainController site. Not impressed! Given Iain's comments, I will not take it any further. The assumption that everyone is a dab hand at superglue, small drills and soldering is not valid in my case, especially when combined with awkward access under baseboards and poor lighting! Even above baseboard at full stretch, I am not at my best. I expect I will find a way round, although my layout builder, while doing DCC, is not an automation/computer type. However, if I know exactly what is needed he will hopefully cope with the connections as they seem to me similar to drop wires? Let's keep smiling! Paul

Hi Colin, Unfortunately, none of these types of software system work without signals telling them what is happening, and providing such signals requires hardware to sense something (such as movement or current). Installing additional hardware on existing tracks is not always easy! Regards Paul

Cheers Iain, A few questions:- 1) How do I install feeds to current sensors from existing track? Do I just attach a wire to the current sensor to existing drop wires? 2) For current sensing what is best practice in deciding the sections? Do I make each section the plain track between two points, ignoring places where points are adjacent or quite close to each other? Is there a recommended maximum length for a section? 3) Is there a recommended place in a section for a feed - does it matter if it is at one end or in the middle of the section? Do I need to be consistent or can they be where is convenient from other considerations e.g. baseboard joints? Many Thanks, Paul

OK, Iain, I now understand that! However, I have not investigated Railcom, is this an alternative to ITrain, or something different? Ignoring Railcom for the moment, would it work if I just placed one sensor halfway round the circuits or should I divided the circuits of track outside the fiddle yard into say 4 zones ? Taking the clockwise track as an example these would be:- Fiddle yard exit to southern junction, southern junction to station starter signal , Station starter signal to north junction, north junction to fiddle yard entrance. There are other points in the Station area such as crossovers and the station yard access. There is no intention to use these points other than in the straight ahead mode when operating the automatic sequence. The north and south junctions are double junctions where the branch to the terminal (north junction) and a set of sidings (southern junction), leave the main lines. Again, there is no intention to use these lines leaving the main line under automation. I assume that there would need to be a sensor roughly at the middle of each section? Any other thoughts? Many thanks Paul

Good Afternoon everyone, I have been watching various U tube videos on ITrain and the Roco Z21. It seems to me that to achieve the limited amount of automation I want, (and I know lots of you will tell me that once I try it I will want complete automation), I need the following:- A suitable command station, wifi enabled A router A suitable wifi enabled controller - at the moment I am looking at items such as the Levono Mini with 3Gb storage. Sensors for the fiddle yard tracks and cabling to them Feeds/sensors to the relevant points and the necessary cabling An interface between the sensors and the command station. Software such as ITrain. I do not see the need for sensors in any other areas of the layout. As far as the system is concerned there will just be straight track. I can accept that in the scenic areas during the automatic operation, the signals will have to remain at "off", and therefore not be prototypical. (There are no signals in the fiddle yard area!) However, I am not sure how "normal" operation of the "automated fiddle yard would work, or to put it another way how the automation would be switched on and off? Or have I got this all wrong? Thanks for any assistance, Cheers Paul

I will be grateful for any assistance you can give me, I have appreciated your input to my other threads. Best regards Paul

Great Mike, But what did you move to and why did you choose that one? What others did you consider and reject and Why? Many thanks Paul

I think I had already reached the stage of thinking that the disadvantages of the NCE for Wifi outweighed the advantages. Currently, the Z21 is probably my favoured option.

Hi everyone, Some of you will have seen or contributed to my threads in elsewhere in the DCC arena where I have been looking at how to go wireless from my current NCE Powercab controls. Before making a decision on the way forward I want to explore the possibilities for the next stage so that I don't make any short term decisions that I later regret! So what do I mean by "Can I automate my fiddle yard?" First some background:- My layout housed in a 12ft x 8ft room will eventually comprise a continuous run occupying 12ft x 4ft and a branch that leads to a 8ft x 2ft end to end branch terminal along the far wall leaving me a 9ft x 2ft operating well. At present the 12ft x 4 ft and the 8ft x 2ft operate as separate layouts both controlled by NCE Powercabs. They were both built professionally as my skills in that direction are non existent - operation and scenics are my interests. They were built by different professional layout builders partly due to the disruption caused by Covid! I have a project under way to unite the two layouts and a third layout builder has been to look at the layouts and is booked to dismantle the two layouts and take them away to his workshop to do this. The recent announcement by DCC of their Aegis wifi system for NCE suggested that wifi should be examined. Other wifi systems are currently under evaluation. I currently enjoy running clockwise and anticlockwise trains tail chasing on my continuous run while I shunt the station yard or work the end to end layout. It occurred to me that the the enjoyment would be greater if the fiddle yard of the continuous run (located on the far side of that layout from the control centre), and having two loops in each direction , could be used so that three trains in sequence could proceeded round the continuous run in each direction while I shunt the station yard or the terminal. I assume this will require some sort of computer control? I should add that the terminal's Powercab controls that layout's points (acting via solenoids) and signals as well as the locos, while the continuous run's Powercab only controls that layout's locos. The points are controlled by two DCC Cobalt Central 12 way switch panels which connect to the tracks and the point motors by via the second socket on the NCE Panel. The point motors here are Cobalt IP Digital turnout motors. The signals are to be installed on the continuous run as part of the layout joining project. They have been built by Stephen Freeman and he has supplied all the items necessary to operate them via the IP Digital turnout motors. The current intention is to alter the point and signal controls so that they are all controlled by switches on a Mimic Diagram that my builder will supply. However, I can see that this might not be sensible in the context of the above automation requirement. I hope the above makes sense, and that someone can help me make the right decisions. I only have one shot at this. At the age of 75, I want to get as many years operational enjoyment out of my railway as I can, starting again is not an option! Thanks in advance, Paul

Hi There, The screen you put up on your posting is unfamiliar to me, and I regularly (every week) post and sell or repost items! However, I use a laptop and I know the screens look different on other devices and other operating systems. What device is it on? What operating system are you using? Perhaps you need to change operating system? Hope you sort it Cheers Paul

Hi Everyone, Not wishing to be incensitive, and recognising that RMWeb, is a model of a broad church(!), I think it time to drag the conversation back to the subject of control systems:- My current thinking is that if the Roco (in multiple(!)), is good enough for Pete Waterman, then it's good enough for me, although the thought on passwords warrants investigation. However, I still have some layouts to investigate, so this is just where I am at at the moment. So....................Watch this space! Cheers for now Paul

True, but as the Z21 will only be controlling locos, this should be ok? Points, signals and uncouplers will be independent of the Z21 through a conventional Mimic diagram. Or am I missing something? Cheers Paul

I wondered about how they got on at Chester, and concluded that the visitors there were probably more of a trickle than the "Flood" you get when doors open at a big exhibition!

True, I just need to use the correct cable!