Tallpaul69

That's OK Art, and the comment about hijacking was really aimed at the guys who go into minute detail about their trials and tribulations with one specific bit of kit and then others answer them with minute detail about another bit of kit! From my point of view, all they need say here is that I had trouble with x, and because I am not an expert it took a lot of sorting out. That sort of info is useful, I do not need the blow by blow story!! Re the HSTs I think I will be trying to get away with about 4 each for 1992, and 2016, so will not need to convert the older ones I have, so they will be sold. Slight aside:- while I want some sound, I think my first priority will be sound in locos that are going to be slowing or stopping in my scenic area and leave the others whistling through unsounded. Yes, I know that I could slow those for variation, but you have to compromise somewhere and I have to concentrate my money on the essentials otherwise there will be no layout at all! Its unfortunate I cannot do much for myself, but once I have a functioning layout and the minimum of trains to run on it I can then experiment with doing chipping etc. myself knowing that if something does not work, or fails, I can still operate the layout. Best regards Paul

Ok, Ravenser, let me clarify (I hope you can follow this detail?):- Length of trains as above. The model is a representation (two track rather than 4) of the WR mainline just to the west of Maidenhead, so it includes the High Wycombe (later cut back to Marlow) branch junction but not the station. It is intended to run in several eras probably 1962, 1992, and 2016 (latter to be just pre electrification changes). I also have stock/locos to run 1977 and 2007, but financing the DCC chipping (with some sound) means that some items are going to have to be sold! Some sidings have been moved to fit the space but retain the operational capability of the 1962 era. Groups of sidings will have removable covers for 1992 and 2016 running. points to sidings will be hidden by strategic placements of lineside furniture. (which will change for different eras. Points will be less obvious because the layout is to be at 5ft from floor. This is to allow me easier access without the complication of lifting flaps. I also hate the helicopter view of layouts as it is totally unrealistic! So in 1962 there are :-Reading suburban services, steam and diesel, parcels services, branch passenger services, 4 branch freights each WAY 4 freights each way per day which drop and pick up wagons from the loops at Maidenhead. Semifast passenger trains to various destinations including Oxford and Newbury Through Expresses Through express freights In later eras there are more multiple units and HSTs and only the freights are loco hauled. In all eras all except for a few specific trains, all trains will run round the layout several times at different times in the timetable to portray different trains. Except when I set two trains (one passenger, one freight running continuously so I can just watch them go by! The above is just a summary! Cheers Paul

Hi All, As several readers of my current thread "To DCC or not?" had read and contributed to this thread, I thought I would update it for those who have not made the link! Currently I am awaiting estimates from a couple of builders. I have a draft plan from one of them, but cannot share it as it is at present his copyright. His draft demonstrates that my sketch was possible. Before I sent the enquiry out I had taken the station platforms out . While the station buildings remained the same until the current electrification started, the differences in station furniture over the eras made platforms a non starter. I will update you further as things progress. I may also for the benefit of new readers restate my principals for the model. Cheers Paul

Please read what I have posted. So, can I make the following CLEAR:- NOWHERE did I say I wanted to run scale length trains. The expectation is Loco plus 5 coaches or equivalent train length in wagons as a maximum. YES HST sets will be power cars plus 4 coaches. There is NO station. Curves are to be a minimum of 2ft 6ins radius. A number of short sidings are included in the fiddle yard areas to accommodate locos to add to the end of trains to reverse them. I DID NOT ask 12 companies to quote:- I asked 12 companies if they were interested in quoting! Several of them said they had 2 years work, that is too long to wait, I can manage a years wait. I am ignoring all the assumptions folks have made, and the above relates to the last day or so of posts. I could go on, but the above is enough to be ignored, misquoted, or misunderstood. Please also, if you want to discuss the details of your application of a particular piece of DCC kit, go off and start your own thread, don't try to hijack mine!! Thank you

Hi Phillip, Glad someone agrees with me. If you choose your location carefully you can run multiple eras without the changes in infrastructure being too much of a compromise to live with. Mind you I am lucky(?) in not having a crowd of knowledgeable friends to come round and say " You know that after year x they stopped using y and started using z!" So one of the worst problems I have to tackle is the reduction in sidings over the years. My solution is that they will be covered in the modern eras by removable flat plates (car parks) and removable buildings. This will work provided you take care over the seams between the edge of the modern structures or landscape and the baseboard or trackside. I still have to hide the points that are redundant but this can be done with small lineside items. It helps that my layout will be mounted high so that I am looking at the track etc at a low angle ,not at maybe 60degrees, when the points particularly are more of a problem to hide. Best regards Paul

Hi David, The layout is just for me. will be demonstrated to friends and family (none of whom are railway or modelling enthusiasts). So the compromises have just to be what I can live with! I understand why exhibitions are what they are, and I was stating facts, not suggesting they or the operators should change to accommodate my likes cos if they did most exhibitions would be a financial failure!! I was just picking up on a comment that I should look at exhibitions (now let me think, what have I been doing on Saturdays for I don't know how many years!) . Sorry must not be picky they were only trying to help! Best regards Paul

Phil, the reason I didn't post anything further on Partly Maidenhead is that I was told very clearly by a number of folk on the forum that I MUST go away and draw a plan up in exact scale, because if I did so I would then find that what I was looking for was totally impractical. Many thought I should settle for a simple track plan, because, they said, if you get bored with that, why, you just plan and build another one!! No thank you. I did gave the drawing a try, but I don't have a good set of drawing instruments neither do I have a track drawing software, and don't see the point of spending a lot of time learning the ins and outs of such a package to produce one layout drawing. I concluded my efforts were a waste of my time. So I used the time to send my drawing with an outline of my requirements to a dozen builders. While waiting for their replies, I put together an enquiry package which I then sent out to those builders who expressed interest. I am now waiting for their estimates which from chatting to them last week, I expect to receive within the next two weeks. I have already have from some of them draft layout drawings which with a little adjustment should be able to meet my needs. I may well post the drawing on the estimate that I settle on onto the forum. Best regards Paul

Yes, it is a factor that I have already planned for. Firstly, I don't intend changing eras frequently, possibly every 3 or 6 months. Secondly I am fortunate in having a racked storage area next door to the railway room. Lastly such a changeover cant be rushed, you have to accept that it will take a week or two to do the changeover. You cant rush these things. You also ned to have a written script otherwise you get in a muddle. Best regards Paul

Yes, I agree about the blurring of the eras! Economics may force some rationalisation as one of the attractions of DCC for me is sound, but there is little money for that even over several years, so some assets will, reluctantly, have to be liquified! To make 1962 work for my prototype, I have to reduce or hide the infrastructure. So there is no station, thus no station furniture signs etc. The signal box went in the early 70s so it is removed except for 1962. The signals went colour light in 1963 except the branch, so the 5 branch signals may be non working in 1962, then removed and working colour lights plugged in for later eras. Yes, the detail of the colour lights altered over the years, so I just have to avoid letting any signalling experts view the layout. I can live with the compromise. I am going to cheat by having a couple of steam specials running excursions in the non steam eras. I have to be careful with the c2016 version to ensure I keep it before the overheads and the resultant infrastructure changes kicked in! Best regards Paul

Sorry, but I was away Friday-Monday on a family get together! I was not to know that so many people would look at my post, and I have explained in my recent posts above why I did not provide all the information that some of the people say they MUST have! Please look at my recent posts and then tell me what information other than things I have said I cannot provide, YOU need to respond? Hope you reply, and don't just go off in a huff!! Cheers Paul

If people stayed with the theme instead of going off on their own pet sagas of their own choice of equipment, we would all be a lot better off! Half the people who answered this didn't get the basics of what I said in what I thought was a short clear initial statement. Giving them more facts and a track plan that they wont understand unless I include the two page" why the layout is wanted how it is shown on my sketch" that was sent to potential suppliers, which I suspect few would bother to read, would be a waste of time!! Cheers Paul

Not quite right, and I will forgive the slightly patronising tone! Hands up all those who can truthfully say they only have the exact locos they need, and will never buy another one? I thought so-the silence is deathly. The locos are not a miscellaneous collection, there has been a plan all along (at least for the last 30 years or so that I have been working to 4 eras, the 2016 version is only a couple of years old!). The layout has not yet been signed off, although I am reasonably happy with where we are. The suggestion of DCC did come from the builder after the first iteration of the plan. Do not yet own the copyright of the plan so cannot share it and other forums have been rude about my sketches in the past and suggested I buy a layout drawing package! Cheers Paul

The reason for 200 locos is that I want to run the layout in several eras. Originally 1962, 1977, 1992, 2007, and 2016. So that is roughly 40 locos per era. The three power districts are to simplify fault finding (I am told?) I have not included a track plan because I don't think my initial sketch is good enough to show from the holes contributors picked in an earlier version I shared (although admittedly not on this forum!). I do not yet own the copyright in the track plans put together by potential builders, so cannot share them! I tried to ask my question as simply as possible because I know from experience (present company excepted) that people don't read a lot of detail, they switch off after a couple of sentences and then ask why I have not told them things that were there if they read the whole thing! So it is a fine balance to give enough facts so your question can be answered without half the readers switching off and missing some of the facts! The way things are going I will have to sell the locos and stock of a couple of the eras to finance the layout, or sound chipping as sound seems to be a clear benefit of DCC for me as I don't need banking, double heading, a large loco depot, and some of the other DCC "advantages" ! I will try to answer the queries particularly about the isolation when I have time to look again at the comments and compose a clear reply. Might not get to this until the weekend. Cheers Paul

I think it is time, as Lord Sugar says on the Apprentice, for me to summarise:- So I think the summary of the advice is:- Use DCC only for the control of the trains Have separate DCC circuits for areas (districts) so that if there is a fault the whole model does not stop working and it is easier to find the fault. Isolation is not necessary to hold multiple trains on each of the fiddle yard lines, the digital addressing takes care of this. In the case of my model, this could be 3 districts:- up line, down line, and branch Retain isolated sections in dead ends Control points, signals, and uncoupling by conventional solenoids, wiring and switches as the cost of the wiring saved using digital is less than the cost of the accessory modules. Use a conventional mimic diagram rather than an electronic one on a laptop Try to look in detail at an existing DCC layout similar to what I propose. Try to view if only on a simple shop layout a number of different makes of DCC controller and chip(both sound and non sound). Non DCC locos can be used with DC controllers on a DCC layout but at changeover care must be taken to remove the non DCC locos before running under DCC or to remove the DCC locos before running under DC I have the following thoughts:- I still cannot see how the reduction in wiring for power to the tracks is going to offset the cost of chipping my locos, so I have to decide whether the benefits of digital are worth the extra cost of getting my locos chipped. In DCC I have a problem with stopping trains in correct place in the fiddle yard tracks that hold a queue of three trains. (Isolated sections do this in DC). This area will be behind me when I am sat in the operating position, so difficult to see, and not part of the “real world” of my model. Uncoupling needs to be related to places on the layout not specific items of rolling stock so the digital uncoupling of specific stock doesn’t really work for me. My intention is to use small tension lock couplers. What size would a mimic be, would it be a lot bigger if it had switches mounted in it or smaller if it uses stud and probe? Lastly, and this is my problem which you cannot help me with:- In the light of the last point in the above summary of the advice, I need to try to find an area of the house where I can set up a separate small layout for my vintage locos and stock so that the main layout can be DCC track only. Many thanks to all who have contributed Best regards Paul

Thanks Mike, Unfortunately I am in south west Bedfordshire without a car, so Peterborough is two buses to get to Hitchin then a ride up the East Coast line, all of which takes a good while! Might put together a short end to end line somewhere to try a few options out, just got to consider cheapest way to do this without buying too much stuff I cant use on the main layout when it is built! Regards Paul

Hi Tony, I think Clive had missed the point that this is a new Build!! Cheers Paul

Thanks Ravenser, a few points:- Do way will I be chipping H-D or Vintage Triang Locos! Small screws and I don't get on well, never have , and with advanced years (i'm 70) it gets worse particularly as the eyesight for small detail is not great, and my peripheral vision is poor (the hospital tell me!) So DIY is not an option, unfortunately Think I am going to do a separate small layout for the vintage, once I can work out a suitable space-think I need 5-6ft by 3-4ft. Thanks also to everyone else who has replied.

Hi Crossland, I don't want to bank (no inclines), I don't want to doublehead, as it looks a bit silly on 5 coaches, and with the cost of loco chipping (don't have skill to do myself) I may not be able to afford to continue with my aim to portray multiple eras when modern Top and Tail would be good. I don't need to move wagons from up loop across to down loop in one move via several crossovers, and I don't need a loco yard with lots of engines one behind the other. So what is in DCC for me? Cheers Paul

While I agree with the sentiment of this unfortunately not many model shops have working layouts and if they do they tend to be simple ovals with maybe a siding or two which is hard to relate to my proposed layout! I have looked at a lot of layouts at shows, but there is often not much in 00 between the shunting layout, so no continuous run, and the 24ft 4-6 operator club layouts. Don't think I have ever seen anyone exhibiting a 12ftx8ft layout, run singlehanded, portraying a main line and branch/ relief line which is what my layout is all about? Thanks to all Paul

Hi Mike, and all the other folk who contribute! Want sound, yes, but being able to afford sound is an entirely different matter! On this thread, what is the forum's experience of Hornby TTS, which looks to be more cost effective, although I understand that the sounds are not in sync with the cylinder beats on steam? Thanks to all Paul

Yes, that is a good point. I will only have one chance to get a layout being now 70years young, so I want 10-15 years (after that I will probably be too old to take much interest!). Junctionmad said earlier that you should not cost your hobby, which generally I agree with but when you are looking into a large expenditure and you are on a fixed income, you have to be sure you can afford what you are looking at! Thanks to all for their comments, one last question:- Anyone got any experience of using Gaugemaster 18 decoders? Do they work well? Drawbacks? Best regards Paul

I had been thinking of having the two main lines plus a couple of fiddle yard roads each way switchable between DCC and DC, to allow running of my vintage Hoornby00 two rail and vintage Triang locos.(the track will be code 100). This would also allow running of some other older locos that cannot be chipped or others awaiting chipping. I will not be doing the chipping myself, my skill level/eyesight is not up to it! Cheers Paul

Vecchio, Thanks for the summary. Unfortunately there is no club that I can access in the evenings as I do not drive, and taxis get expensive! May try a small single circuit plus siding test layout that can be set out on our large dining table (back to the playing trains of my childhood!). I have a while to decide on the kit as it looks like it will be about a year before any of the constructors I am talking to have a slot to build it! Cheers Paul

Thanks Izzy, So if its not cheaper, how much more expensive might it be, bearing in mind I am having this layout professionally built, and I do want a mimic diagram, I need automation of the fiddle yard where most tracks will hold three trains. The mimic could well be on a laptop or large screen TV on the wall? Cheers Paul

Hi Pete, Unfortunately I am in Leighton Buzzard, and without transport! Thanks anywayi