Morello Cherry

The 120 also appeared in areas that are popular to model - ie Cambrian Coast, Cornwall, Devon, Scotland etc. A good 120 thread here for anyone who wants a 120 fix. I am surprised given some of the things that are available in RTR that there isn't one available not withstanding the lack of drawings (I find it hard to believe that the 120s are unique in this respect and that lack of drawings have prevented other things being modelled).

Did the SO North-South services all (re)-start around the same time? If they did then I think you are right about 83 as a start date. I think that is when the saturday morning Portsmouth Harbour-Liverpool and/or Manchester via Guildford and Reading trains restarted. Stuck in my mind as variation from a diet of 119s and VEPs/CIGs.

If you run out of wheels...

On the subject of turning postal vehicles, what were the turnaround times like? I assume that if something arrived in say Aberdeen in the morning from London, when would it be needed next? The following afternoon/evening for the return working or would there have been an equivalent day time working that meant that it was needed by say midday? I know that the answer is that it depends on where the vehicle was working between but it if they had long turn around times then either hunting for a triangle or turning individual vehicles on a turntable would not have been too onerous. Or I guess you have enough vehicles that even if you do have a day time postal service the vehicles off the night time service aren't needed for it. I'm assuming that companies like the GNR went for double sided vehicles to reduce this turnaround time and I'd imagine get better utilisation out of their vehicles. Also, I wonder if all the photos that have TPO vehicles at the front is a product of the photographs - TPO vehicles at the back of trains would be harder to discern or would be cropped off a typical 3/4 view.

It appears the GNR had TPO vehicles with nets on both sides to avoid turning. Some good shots and info on East Coast postal services. https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/209-tpo-services-in-lner-and-er-days

From a some what vague memory reading accident reports on the railways archive but weren't there were a couple of accidents caused by guards incorrectly assessing their trains and instead of them being classed 8 they were classed as 7 and the trains ended up running away. I have in my mind that there was one freight train that changed its classification midway through because there was a reversal. So it ran with a fitted head for half the journey, reversed and then ran as an unfitted but the driver wasn't told and thought he had a fitted train and the train ran away.

I wonder if there is some scope for regional accents? Would say Motherwell or Warmley have had announcements in RP? That said, at 5.55 in this there is an announcement (you have to listen quite hard) but it does sound quite RP. (For the 1950s) I was half hoping that the announcer would be full on Janner 'alright moi luvver, the train at platform 7...'

I think that 'Crime on the Line' by Adrian Gray has some stuff on the South Coast Raiders (as well as other crimes).

On the subject of the second tender running with other locos. What was going on here? Is this Bittern running with both FS's old tenders or was Bittern's tender fitted with the pipework to run with the second tender? (I have in my mind that Bittern had a non-corridor tender but my memory could be wrong on that).

A few additions LNWR in BF from 1910 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=8&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1600 LNWR in BF from 1887 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=10&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/2664 LNWR in BF 1920 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=24&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1603 Undated - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=35&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1783 Loading in 1956 - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=36&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1793 1910 - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=100&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1800 1881 - coal wagons rather than slate but included anyway http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6MTAyLCJQIjp7InZhbHVlIjoibG53ciIsIm9wZXJhdG9yIjoiMSIsImZ1enp5UHJlZml4TGVuZ3RoIjoiMyIsImZ1enp5TWluU2ltaWxhcml0eSI6MC41LCJtYXhTdWdnZXN0aW9ucyI6IjUiLCJhbHdheXNTdWdnZXN0IjpudWxsfX0&pg=71&WINID=1661513493216#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/2629

I thought I'd have a look on the Ffestiniog I-base and I found these - they range from 1913 to the 1950s Transporter - 1927 http://217.34.233.120:8086/view-item?i=1803&WINID=1661512296080#.YwisM4TRY2x 1950s wagons - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=56&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1850 1913 - http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=59&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/1446 1920 - Minffordd http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=72&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/643 Minffordd 1936 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=78&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/669 Minffordd 1930 http://217.34.233.120:8086/index.php?a=ViewItem&key=SXsiTiI6ODksIlAiOnsidmFsdWUiOiJnd3IiLCJvcGVyYXRvciI6IjEiLCJmdXp6eVByZWZpeExlbmd0aCI6IjMiLCJmdXp6eU1pblNpbWlsYXJpdHkiOjAuNSwibWF4U3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMiOiI1IiwiYWx3YXlzU3VnZ2VzdCI6bnVsbH19&pg=88&WINID=1661512296080#csMPpDs_WkkAAAGC2QAMbA/668

Makes sense, my guess is that those that were exchanged at Minffordd must have gone via Afon Wen because it doesn't really make sense to send them down the coast and all the way across. (But alternatively, why would you go BF-Minffordd-Afon Wen, when you could access the North Wales coast line direct from BF). Thinking about it, I don't think I can recall ever seeing photographs of slate being transported on standard gauge wagons other than transporters.

To echo Becasse could it be for fish traffic from Leigh on Sea? 'Leigh on Sea is the most active fishing port on the North Thames and the first fishing Port out of London. The fleet predominately fish for cockles but Sole, Thornback Ray, Herring and Whelks are also landed locally.' (According to Leigh on Sea) or alternatively - fish traffic out from Billingsgate to be shipped from Tilbury? or something from further away that came via Tilbury, the MLVs had a lot of room so my assumption is that they must have been picking up/taking a lot of stuff.

@Compound2632 here is a photo of Afon Wen. (BTW in 1895 there was a Whitchurch to Bangor train via Afon Wen). Do you reckon that these sidings indicate that there was sufficient exchange traffic between the Cambrian and LNWR? http://disused-stations.org.uk/a/afon_wen/afonwen(hcc7.1941)old9.jpg

I was being flippant but my more serious point is that even in somewhere which we might consider to be 'rural' there might be quite a large industrial concern like at Leiston. There were companies all over the country sending out machinery, and even on the 'rural' GER, there would likely be internal industrial goods moving because of industry in and around London as well as goods moving from other companies over the country. Obviously if you are thinking about GWR loads to the GER then look at the industry around Bristol, or South Wales, the Midlands

Or Leiston :) Was there not heavy industry in north-east London, the docks and south essex?

I genuinely have no idea what routing the Cambrian wagons would have taken (I guess it depends on where they were going). Via Afon Wen? via Ruabon? via Whitchurch? via Oswestry?

@Compound2632 - in theory you could have slate loads from LNWR, GWR and the Cambrian all originating from Blaenau Ffestiniog. (LNWR - BF via Llandudno Jnc, GWR via the Bala and Ffestiniog, and Cambrian via the Festiniog and the Cambrian via Minffordd). Although I'd assume that the LNWR would be the biggest carrier as it had Penrhyn and Dinorwic. Cambrian I guess would pick up Corris and TR slate as well.

@Lacathedrale - Bridgnorth is hilly. You might not want to push the pram up and down the hill. Does it have to the be the pram or can you use a baby carrier? Baby carrier does give you free hands but a long day can/will kill your back. It can also be hot. The only other advice is pace yourself and work to baby's timetable rather than the railway's. The advantage with the SVR is if baby is having a long feed/sleep or needs an urgent change there will be another train along soon.

With a baby I would definitely recommend breaking the journey for a pure a simple reason - nappy stops/feeds etc. My suggestion would be: Kidd - Arley/Highley - break Arley/Highley - Bridgnorth - break Bridgnorth - Arley/Highley - break Arley/Highley - Kidd With the return trip if you need to get home because baby is tired/hungry you've then you can just go straight through and skip the break. Baby changing not normally great on preserved railways so take the full kit.

@PMP- so represent segregation and poverty on the layout then. Frankly you are looking for an ever smaller and smaller pinhead to dance on here. @PaulRhB - I really don't get what your argument here is and both your and PMPs posts are sliding into whataboutery. I've made my point so to save it going round in circles I will state it one last time. I don't think the socio-political environment in which is railway model or recreation sits should be ignored and it should be represented, even if that is uncomfortable or challenging. Representing it is difficult. It is the modeller's model and they can model it as they wish but if they put it out there in public then their choices can and should be criticised. If you don't like my model of the PQR that makes reference to the Pennants slave ownership because it makes reference to it then that says more about you than it does about me. I am, however, sure that there is another more rosy eyed layout at the exhibition that is more your bag.

I don't buy that argument at all. German law is very clear on reproducing Swastikas. That isn't whitewashing that is obeying the law. Moreover, the bigger picture makes it is clear about what it is about. Complaining that there are no swastikas on a display about Nazi era Germany that references things such as Kristallnacht, arrests, violence, concentration camps, is not seeing the wood for the trees

Absolutely, but on the other hand given how segregation informed and influenced every single aspect of public and private life in Jim Crow states, I struggle to see how it can be left out if 'recreating' 1950s Southern railroading. To me it is akin to modelling 1930s Germany with no reference to Nazism, or 1960s Eastern Europe or Soviet Union without referencing Communism. Could you imagine a British layout set in 1944 that didn't take WW2 as a main reference? To model the south in this period and for someone to say they 'didn't know' is shocking ignorance, or to say they didn't want to include it is questionable judgement.

@PaulRhB unconsciously or not if you are modelling an era and you don't include an aspect of it then it is whitewashing. If I were to ever model North Wales in the 1970s/80s if I didn't include symbols of Welsh nationalism then I am whitewashing it out of the story. I would rather not do that. It doesn't always have to be 'on the model', if for example I were modelling early Victorian railways I would be very clear in explaining that the line was funded with money paid to slave owners as compensation after the abolition of slavery and then re-invested in things like London to Birmingham, or PQR. @The Johnster - I agree with you. An SAR engine is a magnificent piece of engineering but if I came across a 1970s SA themed layout I would be a bit wtf.

As I said at the start - someone is free to model or photograph as they wish and they can choose to represent what they want and they can represent that however they so choose. At the same time, if they are putting their model or photograph out in public then they are free to be criticised for the choices they have made. It is strange to me that people can have so much commitment to realism at the micro level 'the w irons are wrong' but play fast and loose when it comes to representing the world in which their model railway sits. When I see someone posting a photograph on a railway photography site saying how they paid top dollar for a 'O Winston Link photography experience' and I look at the photo with only white actors, only white crew and declaring that they could be back in 1950s North Carolina/Virginia and I am left wondering and question what has been left out, especially when I look at images of the same period from photographers such as Gordon Parks. I find the idea of presenting a rose tinted view of segregation era Southern US railroading to be a bit bizarre especially in the post-George Floyd world. (Intentionally or not, this editing out of people of colour's experience is structural racism). I would prefer that if people want to recreate the 1950s in the South that they zoom out further to present a more holistic representation of the period. Don't crop the segregated of the station and people of colour out of the picture. Be honest even if it isn't that comfortable. There are two issues when it comes to representing difficult topics. The first is whether to do it all and the second is if you are going to do it how to do it. The reason why I praised MW is because they did it well. I couldn't do it because I couldn't do it well without it becoming pastiche. They tell the story well, warts and all. So give credit where credit is due. I would not for example model apartheid era South African railways or Nazi era railways, because I don't think I could give a strong defence of my choice and secondly the choice is too open to misinterpretation, and frankly it would be offensive if done badly. And I think when it comes segregation era US railroading put simply I don't see how you can model a building that in reality would have been segregated and represent it as unsegregated. The second question is could I model a difficult topic without it becoming pastiche. For example, I have a copy of a Polish documentary that features a Polish Secret Police surveillance film outside Warszawa Główna in the early 1970s. Now I could model that scene, but I wouldn't because in my view it would come off as a pastiche of what was a serious situation. I wouldn't want something to become a 'where's wally?' type search for the model of the SB agent. I do think that you can tackle uncomfortable issues within the context of making a model an accurate representation of a period. As I said earlier, if I were modelling the 1970s in the UK I would use anti-racist protests/graffiti/posters to open make the point, I would look for models of non-white passengers and railway workers etc. But it needs to be thought about carefully and to me the question is - can this representation be misinterpreted either as condoning something or trivialising it. And in this case, accurately representing that the 1950s station in the US South was segregated, that there were 'white only' 'colored only' waiting rooms, ticket queues, benches, fountains etc is the right thing to do rather than pretending that it wasn't. And if you don't think you can do that then you shouldn't do it at all rather than misrepresent the past by inaccurately rendering your scene. And if someone doesn't give it the thought it deserves and puts out a photo or model in public that airbrushes reality then they are fair game for criticism. (Gordon Parks, Alabama 1956) I don't think it is easy to create an accurate representation of the world in which the model railway is supposed to be sitting. Nor do I think that representation will be all that comfortable but that isn't a bad thing for it to be. It is amazing how much time, thought, effort and research people put into getting the right colours, making sure the chairs on the pointwork are correct, the signals correct, etc all in the name of accuracy and realism. If people are prepared to sweat blood getting the latter right then why not want to see people do the same to get the former right?