Tumut

Hello All, 1 / as we are talking Battleships /BB, the Reichsmarine, later Kreigsmarine's Pocket Battleships ( apparently a RN term ), later classified as Heavy Cruisers / C, the Deutschland class Panzerschiff / armoured ship ( Deutschland / Admiral Sheer / Admiral Graf Spee ) have oft been criticised as a failure, yet with six 28cm /11 inch guns they achieved their design goal of being heavier armed than a fast cruiser ( usually 6 inch or 8 inch guns ) and faster than a BB that could outgun them. Being diesel powered gave them a long cruising range, yet all welded construction meant that they only displaced 10,000 tons ( though some estimates say up to 12,000 tons ) which is a typical cruiser displacement. 2 / Whilst it is true that HMS Exeter, HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles (New Zealand Division, later HMNZS ) eventually ran Admiral Graf Spee into Montevideo , that still amounts to 24 guns spread over three ships to force one ship into harbour, so that seems to me to indicate the Deutschland class was a successful design. 3 / I have often thought that additional Deutschland class would have been a better alternative to the Bismarck & Tirpitz , bearing in mind that commerce raiding was a primary war aim, that operating out of the Baltic, and Norway's fiords, are both restricted waterways, and the fact that very few fast BBs / Battlecruisers existed which could outgun a Deutschland class. 4 / Additionally, the Deutschland class required less crew, and had lower operating costs, so potentially an additional three Deutschland class in lieu of two Bismarck class, would also have given the Kreigsmarine greater deployment options, and caused the RN a lot more headaches than the Bismarck class actually did. ( 5 / As I have no naval service background , I am happy to be corrected. ) regards from Australia.

Dear 62613 and others, 1 / they may have made an interesting Aircraft Carrier (CV) conversions. The USS Lexington and USS Saratoga conversions enabled the USN to have, like the IJN, large CVs, which in turn allowed for more aircraft on board, and could accomodate the next generation of larger and heavier monoplane designs. Both the USN and the IJN had the advantage over the RN in CVs for this reason, though it is equally true that aircraft design and engineering between the wars was so rapid that some new designs were obsolete by service entry. 2/ as an aside, apparently Admiral Yamamoto witnessed the RN FAA Swordfish attack on Taranto, and this raid is credited with inspiring the East Wind Rain attack on Pearl Harbour. However, in 1931-32, the US Army and the USN, conducted joint manoeuvres in which two USN carriers' aircraft made a sneak attack on Pearl Harbour , and the umpires ruled that all facilities were put out of commission. These manoeuvres were witnessed by a Japanese Naval Attache, who later became a Staff Officer to the Commander of the IJN Carrier force that attacked Pearl, and he stated in a post war article that the idea and pattern of the attack was based on his observations of these manoeuvres ( "East Wind Rain" Stan Cohen / Pictorial Histories Publishing Co / Montana, USA 1981/1992 isbn 0-933126-15-8 ) page 10. 3 / Many years ago I read an article that claimed that the British Army in the early 1930s did manoeuvres in Malaya that included a possible land attack to seize Singapore from the rear, if this is correct, then it appears that Japan had both of their attacks pre demonstrated by their adversaries ! 4 / there has been criticisms of both General Short, and Admiral Kimmel, in relation to their failures to adequately defend Hawaii, yet the long winded, and garbled instructions from Washington indicated that sabotage was the greatest threat they need to prepare for, and they did. There is also criticism levelled at Admiral Kimmel for not having sufficient air patrols, which may have some validity, but there were only three reconnaissance planes available on standby, and the area to be observed was ( and is ) enormous, so it is a bit like finding a needle in a haystack, and lacking a magnet. In the Pacific Theatre, despite many reconnaissance flights by all participants, spotting the enemy in a vast ocean was, realistically, hope over experience, and there are a number of recorded instances when successful spotting was the result of errant navigation ! Regards from Australia.

Hello Hroth and others, 1 / I was unaware of this, though it does make sense , even if the taste was lacking. 2 / We had an icebox, and the iceman used to carry a block in, and place it in the top compartment in the icebox for Mum, though at some point we were told that the ice run would be soon discontinued due to falling demand as people bought 'fridges. So Dad bought a Frigidaire ( made by General Motors Holden ) which lasted 10 years, and was privately sold as Mum bought a larger 'fridge, this time a Kelvinator, which lasted for at least15 years. Many years later I went to a workmates home, and lo and behold, a Frigidaire just like Mum's in the back garage, by which time it must have been 30+years old, and still humming along nicely, and it was his Mum's originally ! 3 / We used to have milk delivered, by horse and cart, none of those new fangled electric milk floats here, and once a fortnight a little elderly ( at least to an 8 year old ) dapper man with grey hair, short back and sides, RSL badge in his lapel, dark blue pin striped suit with matching waistcoat ( vest ), circular horn rimmed glasses ( NHS glasses in England ? ) , softly spoken, would write out the Invoice in a beautiful handwritten copperplate, same for the receipt.( He always reminded me of characters in B&W movies on the TV. ) Amazing what memories some discussions can conjure, Regards from Australia.

Hello All, 1 / we alternate between a plunger ( aka press coffee ), a dripolator, an Expresso machine, an Italian stovetop pressure coffee maker, or a percolator; and despite using the same coffee, for some reason all taste differently ! We tend to alternate between Lavazza, Vittorio, and Aldi, all of which are pre cut, though occasionally beans are used, due to having an electric grinder. The used coffee granules end up in the pot plants, none have died yet, so everyone is happy ! 2 / my late father used take me to the flicks ( cinema ) and afterwards we would go to Quist's Danish Coffee House in Little Collins St, Melbourne, a lovely treat. Melbourne is still home to Pellegrini's on Bourke St, probably the most famous Italian coffee house in Melbourne, though nearby Carlton ( 'carn the Blues ) has a great collection of Italian coffee and food houses. 3 / the post WW2 Australia of my childhood were great tea drinkers, Griffiths, Liptons, Lan Choo, Tuckfields, and coffee beans were a specialty coffee house item. Grocery stores ( remember 4 Square, Nancarrows, Moran&Cato ) sold tea and chicory coffee syrup ( yuk ) , then came Nescafe Instant, and much later International Roast Instant ( also yuk ). Nowadays the supermarkets are long shelves of coffees, a short shelf of tea bags ( wot, no tea leaves ? 'fraid not ), and Melbourne has become the coffee capital of Australia ( and we saw of Starbucks first ! ). Apparently, Australian Coffee Houses ( run by Australians ) are all the rage in New York, USA, who'd have thought ? Enjoy your coffee, Regards from Oz

Hello All, the mind boggles !

Hello Danemouth and others, my late Mum went to the Mothers Committee for Cubs, which was usually held at Mrs Stewart's home, and Mum reckoned Mrs Stewart's tea was so strong that a spoon would stand up in it, as it came out black, and even with the cup watered down to 90% it was still strong, and required some sugar to ease the bitterness, and Mum otherwise never had sugar in tea ! Personally a fan of Twinning's Lady Grey, preferably tea leaves, but currently stuck with tea bags 😧, and the fine print says packaged in Poland ! Regards from Australia.

Dear Krusty and others, 1 / I was also unaware of this particular article as well, though prefer not to give any acknowledgement to Far Right Fascists, though this style of fact and evidence free dissertation partly relies on the "no such thing as bad publicity" to get heard. 2 / re Noel Hilliam's claim re Ancient Greeks, I presume they could not circumnavigate Britain due to the Ancient Britons having heard of " beware of Greeks bearing gifts "😀 3 / I live in hope ( though not expectation ) that so called mainstream journalism would at least do a basic search to ascertain that ridiculous and / or outlandish claims have at least a modicum of published research, but no, publish and be dammed, even at the risk of demonstrating complete incompetence, seems to be the go ( I am suddenly reminded of Boris Johnson, sacked for lying both as a journalist, and as a PM ! ).4 / still not seen a wacky sign, Regards from Australia.

Dear Keith Macdonald and others, 1 / this is an interesting article, of which I was unaware, thank you for providing the link. I was unaware that there were predecessors to the Maori in New Zealand, so, like you, I wonder what they called Aoreatoa ( Land of the Long White Cloud ) , which I understand originally only referred by the Maori to the North Island , so what it was called prior to the Maori is of interest. 2 / I was neither meaning to, nor intending to be, patronising. I agree that oral traditions are important and insightful, and I was intending to refer to what I would call proper and genuine academic research, which in recent decades at least, does refer to oral tradition, which in some cases, is also referenced in 17th and 18th century journals , even if only as a passing comment. (" Passing comments" in letters and diaries can have quite unforeseen consequences, re General Heinz Guderian's claim that he was unaware of the OKW order that captured Soviet Red Army Commissars were to be summarily shot, unfortunately for Guderian, his own dairy, in his own handwrighting said otherwise ! ) ( Approximately half of all Soviet Red Army captives, died whilst in German hands, and very few female Red Army captives survived as OKW issued an order for their immediate execution upon capture. ) ( Some years back I met a German Jewish lady whose brother was in the Waffen SS, and who spent 10 years in Siberia as a POW, which she thought was harsh and unjust. My response was amazement that he even got to Siberia, let alone spent 10 years there as a POW, as it is reasonably well known that the Red Army usually summarily shot SS captives. ) 3 / I understand that "Polynesian" covers a wide number of Central Pacific clans / nations, of which the Maori are one, however, I am happy to be corrected if this is not so. 4 / Peoples from the South West Pacific are generally referred to as Melanesians , yet you only have to look at PNG / Papua New Guinea, which alone has 850 local languages, and parts of PNG were only visited by European Australians post WW2. If this seems a bit bizarre, it should be recalled that PNG ( and Indonesian controlled West Irian / Irian Jaya / West Papua ) is very mountainous with steep, and deep valleys, all of which is heavily rainforrested, and which is impassable to mechanised transport . ( The WW2 Kokoda Track was supposed to be upgraded to a road during the War. The terrain is such that this ( to date ) has still not happened. ) 5 / Another interesting avenue is linguists doing historical language research. My wife and I were in Turkiye about 10 years ago, and apparently linguists there traced Turkic languages ( of which there are many ) back to Hokkaido in Japan. 6 / More trivia over, and apologies for not submitting a wacky sign, as I have yet to see one ! Regards from Australia.

Hello All, for a Class that entered service from 1990, and subsequently did periodic periods out of traffic due to ongoing maintenance, and quality control , issues; a 32 year operational life compares badly with the EE Class 37s, and Brush Class 47s & 56s. 2 / the BR class 58s were also a disappointment , so what are the failings of British, compared to their US designed diesel companies ? Regards from Aus,

Hello Keith Macdonald , Compound2632, and others, 1 / Maori are Polynesians, who are the original settlers of Aotearoa New Zealand, and arrived there by canoe around 700 years ago. Captain James Cook described the inhabitants of New Zealand as Polynesian, and subsequent archaeological, and academic, research over the last 100 years indicates that to be true. Conspiracy theories to the contrary are lacking evidence, and propagated by some people who should ( and probably do ) know better. 2 / why restrict New Zealand , Wiltshire to Maori settlers ? Would not Dutch and Danish settlers also be welcome ?😀 3 / Drifting to the northern hemisphere, some may know of Moscow, Idaho, which is currently served by BNSF / Burlington Northern Santa Fe ( previously, BN, Great Northern ) Union Pacific having left years ago, as did SP&S / Spokane, Portland & Seattle ( GN/NP joint control, later part of BN ) and CMStP&P/Milwaukee. Train photos at Moscow, Idaho frequently appeared in books and magazines, and I ( and presumably others ) assumed it was named after Moscow, Russia, and probably due to Russia emigrants, but no, it was actually named after Moscow, Pennsylvania, due to its resemblance to the Pennsylvania town. Moscow, Pennsylvania was settled in the 1830s by Russian-German Lutherans, and is named after the Russian original. Not to be outdone, there are apparently 45 other locations named Moscow in the USA. And by the way, Moscow, Idaho hosts the Lionel Hampton Jazz festival each February ! End of trivia, Regards from Ostralia.

Hello Ozexpatriate and others, 1 / from the Maori perspective, Aotearoa, is the original name. 2 / the relatively recent practice of restoring Maori names, or dual naming is acknowledging the original place names, and is an important recognition of a shared history that was once ignored. 3 / this is now starting to be a trend in Australia regarding original Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander place names. 4 / In Victoria, Australia, the Grampians ( mountain range and State National Park ) were renamed back to the Aborignal place name of Gariwerd, and a work colleague was unimpressed, and complained that the original Grampians name should restored. I replied that Gariwerd is the original name, and the Government has restored it ! ( Subsequently, a change of Government reversed that decision, and a further change of Government has implemented a dual name .) 5 / personally, I am in favour of restoring appropriate and relevant original place names, and I am also supportive of dual naming in some cases. In reality, some individual cases may have had a number of different names for the same location , especially for shared locations. 6 / Perhaps we could restore the original aboriginal names for the South, East and West Alligator Rivers ( Northern Territory ), especially as we have no native alligators in Australia , we only have crocodiles ( a post naming distinction apparently ) ( and in case you are wondering , neither the crocodiles, nor the sharks, cleaned out the alligators; ref the song "The Pommy Jackaroo" by Buster Noble ).Regards from Australia.

Hello All, on that note, I find it interesting that if a person kills someone with a weapon, they are likely to get 15 years +, but if instead they killed the victim with a motor vehicle , 15 months is quite likely. I personally think that death by negligence, motor vehicle or not, should get the same sentence as death by a weapon, on the basis that people should be held responsible for their actions, Regards, Tumut

Hello All, livery reminiscent of ICG / Illinois Central Gulf, or V/Line ( Australia ) 1980s, Regards, Tumut.

Hello All, re the NYMR comments raises an interesting observation. The lack of consistent quality track maintenance leads to all sorts of potentially very expensive problems, poor track causes increasing wear and tear on the trains, leads to an uncomfortable ride ( there are some experiences of the past that need avoiding, this being one of them ) and ends up being a vicious, downward spiral of increasing costs. All railways, without exception, must understand that a deteriorating PerWay is the root of all ballooning operating costs. PW is not something that the general public take much notice of, but many Big railways have gone under for neglecting their PW. SMS / Safety Management Systems, which these days should all be computer based, and assessable to all who need to know, are the difference between being able to insure and operated a safe railway, or not. This is the way of the modern world, especially for preserved railways which are primarily volunteer run and usually require a large number of qualified people to run a small railway where volunteers have limited availability. I am well aware that many people mock H&S, which in some cases may be a valid criticism, but, the absolute last thing a preserved railway needs is a serious injury, or a fatality, especially if it can be proved that some negligence was the responsibility of the railway ( a solicitor friend who does Employer Compensation cases assures me that this is usually the case ). Having to front up to the Coroner's Court to please explain is not a desirable outcome. On that note, I do wonder why so many preserved railways offerSteam Footplate Experience Events, as a boiler firebox blow back is not unknown with steam locomotives. Young peoples experience on a preserved railway can be a stepping stone to a railway career, and some preserved railways ( Ffestiniog ) deliberately structure their volunteer intake and training to accomodate this. Similar arrangements for skilled engineering trades is also done by some preserved railways. These sorts of programmes that have relevance outside of the preserved railway will help preserved railways survive, Regards, Tumut.

Hello All, I would have thought that Race traffic potential would be marginal, on the basis that ( I presume ) Cheltenham Racecourse with 16 race meets per annum leaves 349 days without races, attendance at Race days has been in slow decline for years ( which is why the 24/7 railways stopped running race specials ) and mug punters can watch the races, in close up, down the local. Having said that, the GWSR extension to Cheltenham will allow for greater tourism traffic, which should be of benefit. Regards, Tumut

This is indeed sad news. I was fortunate enough to meet Iain in person in Perth, Western Australia, where he was a Guest Presenter for the British Railway Modellers of Australia Annual Convention. Iain was a great lecturer and raconteur , and as others have said, he made finescale modelling achievable for so many, and his many books and articles will remain an on-going legacy and inspiration for all modellers. My deepest condolences to his extended family, and all of his friends, he will be sadly missed by all, and he he will be remembered for many years hence, Regards, Tumut ( resident in Australia )

Dear Cheesysmith, the Foster Yeoman / BR cl 59 / EMD model JT26CW-ss / 1985 is actually based on the NSW SRA cl 81 / Clyde-GM model JT26C-2ss / 1982, the reason being that the NSW Loading Gauge is close to BR's, and the axle load is also similar, loco weights being 121 tonne, 1,000 imp gals fuel; and 129 tonne, 1,450 imp gals fuel respectively, and both use an EMD 16-645E3 Diesel engine, whereas the SD50 uses the 16-645F Diesel engine, which was less reliable. Regards from Australia.

The same applies to books, an intact dust jacket significantly affects the price upwards.

Hello there, YES, GM-EMD SW1, 600hp BoBo ( 1938 - 1953 ), & VR ( Clyde-EMD G6B ) Y Class, 650 hp BoBo ( 1963 - 1968 ), used redundant Suburban Electric power bogies with rewired traction motors. The VR Y class were used all over the State, in both shunting yards and on local goods ( Pilots ) , as well as country branch lines. Rated to haul 1,000 tons on some Mallee ( NW Victoria ) wheat lines . Regards, Tumut

Hello All, I recently came across this interesting model railway on YouTube, The model railway is based on the xMidland Railway mainline from StPancras to StAlbans in LMS days, and a comment about the couple wearing genuine railway uniforms rung a bell, as I recall reading an article about a couple who purchased surplus xLMS uniforms from BR, and ran a railway between two sheds, and who also used genuine railway block instruments. The railway is run in compliance with the appropriate LMS Midland Division Rule Book and Working Time Table. So it is possible that the article I remember reading is referring to the same couple. Although this BBC Archive film dates to 1967, I suspect the article I read predates this. I initially thought of the Railway Modeller ( Peco ), but I now suspect it is more likely to be either the Model Railway News / MRN, or its subsequent incarnations, or perhaps the Model Railway Constructor / MRC. I would appreciate if anyone could please direct me to the article, or perhaps there is / was another model railway in existence that was of a similar format, Best wishes and regards to all, Tumut.

Hello All, re Mixed Trains which is a train consisting of passenger and goods vehicles ( NPCC vehicles are still considered as Passenger vehicles, think GUVs for instance ), in steam days in Britain a Mixed Train would consist of the locomotive, passenger vehicles, goods vehicles & Brake van; and with goods vehicles to the rear due to the likelihood that the goods vehicles were non fitted. However, after all goods vehicles became fully fitted ( usually air braked only ) then the formation would be locomotive, goods vehicles, passenger vehicles, this formation would allow for the locomotive to place the goods vehicles upon arrival. It also has the advantage that the noisy locomotive is further separated from the leading passenger vehicle ! Australian Mixed Trains, being all air braked were assembled like the Scotland 1984 photo above. Regards, Tumut.

HelloAll, 1 / I once thought the British idea of using a yellow flashing light was a sensible method of advance warning to slow down, however, in practice it apparently has the opposite effect. 2 / in Australia, the time between initiation, the Boom/AHB lowering to horizontal, and the train reaching the level crossing is 25-30 seconds ( it was previously 60 secs ). As a result, driving around boom barriers is rare in Australia. We also have a sign "Stop on Red Signal" below the flashing red lights, and some installations also have an additional sign"Keep tracks Clear" so in the event the road user ( including cyclists and pedestrians ) enters the crossing whilst the red lights are flashing, they are committing an offence. 3 / where a vehicle is struck by a train ( or a vehicle strikes a train ) whilst the red lights are flashing, then their prosecution is pretty much guaranteed, and they will potentially be subject to civil damages as well. 4 / in the US ( and parts of Australia ) a freight train striking a vehicle will usually push said vehicle for about one mile or so, hopefully off the track, but very occasionally the train will literally run right over the top of it. 5 / YouTube has numerous films of vehicles being stuck on level crossing road humps in the US, which seems to me to be a road engineering problem that contributes to the subsequent accident. In other instances it is just plain stupidity. 6 / many years ago I saw a photo of a road sign by the Union Pacific which said "Trains cross here at 60mph wether you are on the crossing or not" Regards, Tumut

Hello All, Re comments on through working of steam engines via train ferries, in-steam locomotives would be an obvious fire hazard, and fires on ships are a highly dangerous combination ! ( Coal or oil fired boilers in the engine room excepted). Regards, Tumut

Re Peach James and others on p20, 1 / in the 1950s the VR did try Pulverized Brown Coal ( La Trobe Valley, East Gippsland is one of the world's largest supply of brown coal at 430 billion tonne reserve in 2013 ) for steam locomotive use, though successful engineering wise, cost wise showed no appreciable economic benefit. The VR also initially used Bunker C for the oil burning classes J & A2 ( some members of each class ), however, as the world demand for Bunker C increased, and the availability of supply decreased, the VR then used diesel for oil burning steam, which remained the case until the end of daily steam operation in 1968, though steam was still available, on an as required basis, until steam finished in 1972. 2 / in the 1950s and early 1960s, steaming coal was generally confined ( there were other smaller supplies elsewhere ) to the NSW East Coast and in Collie, Western Australia. So moving coal to loco depots around Australia required long transits by both sea and rail, and then man handling it into storage. That is expensive and dirty, and coal is relatively heavy. Contrast this with diesel, which is easily transported by rail tank, and in which most Australian diesels would only need to refuel at a very small number of locations, especially when compared to steam. ( For years the VR had only one fuel point, South Dynon Loco, and that location was easily the most used fuel point on the system. The bulk of the VR diesel fleet was also allocated to South Dynon Loco. ) 3 / additionally, those diesels that replaced steam on particular traffics, such as wheat lines, could usually haul double the displaced steam loading, and for rural branch goods this usually resulted in one train a week, as opposed to the two previous steam trains per week, for the same loading. Additionally, these diesels did not need refuelling, or rewatering for those rosters. ( When the VR V/Line G class Clyde-EMD 3,000hp entered service from 1984, complete grain lines could be cleared by one train. ) 4 / the other obvious benefit was that diesels can multi unit with one loco crew, and all Australian diesels used the same MU coupling, unlike the variety that BR had to put up with. 5 / although English Electric did supply some diesels , the majority from Rocklea in Queensland, the most common diesels in Australia were Goodwin-Alco, and Clyde-EMD, the VR in particular favouring Clyde- EMD ( B,S,T,Y,X, H,C,G,N ) due to its very high reliability and ease of maintenance, the fact that VR B ( 1952 ) and S (1957 ) class diesels are still in revenue service today is proof of that. 6 / The Western Australian Government Railways / WAGR did use 48 x Class X Beyer-Peacock / Metropolitan-Vickers / Crossley 1-Do-1, 1,045hp diesel electrics, which were notorious for catching fire, just the thing for wheat lines and eucalyptus forests ! 7 / unlike the UK, Australia did not have a domestic Diesel engine maker that built locomotive diesel motors, so Australian private builders made the mechanical and body parts whilst importing the diesel motor and related components from the US. 8 / The other point is that Australia, from a railway operating perspective, was more akin geographically to US operations, and Australia, like the UK. also had experience with US equipment during WW2, and post war, the US was in a position to more adequately meet Australian needs than was the UK, therefore Australia followed a different path from the UK. ( I did once think of modelling a CNW wheat line till I discovered the branch line goods consisted of 2 x SD9 , combined 3,000hp, and 100 bogie wagons ! which is roughly 20' long in HO, and it has not moved yet ! ) The UK was also trying to readjust its industry from steam age engineering, whereas Australia was expanding into new manufacturing industries, so the economic and political issues were different. And economics is always political in one form or another, despite what some economists claim. Regards, Tumut.

HelloAll, The Victorian Railways / VR of Australia purchased 26 x B class double ended GM-EMD / Clyde Engineering CoCo 1500 hp diesel electric locomotives, and was derived from the EMD F7 model. The VR found that one B class could cover the equivalent runs of three steam locomotives. ( Which, as it later turned out, was found to be generally true on all Australian railways. ) B62 was the first diesel locomotive in Australia to achieve 1 million miles in service from September 1952 to December 1957. To give some context to this, the VR had a geographic spread equal to Britain, with approximately 5,600 route miles. A former Signalman at Melbourne Spencer St No.1 Signal Box told me that the B class were always intensively used, in that they would arrive with one train, be uncoupled, and quickly attached to another for the next departure. Then again, fuel cost wise, in 1953 they cost AusPounds 80- / hp, compared to AusPounds 60- / hp for steam, but as one diesel could cover three steam runs, and not require refuelling or re watering whilst doing so, the benefits are obvious. Also at the time Australia relied on the bulk of locomotive coal coming from NSW underground coal mines, and supply could be variable. ( Northern NSW and Queensland open cut coal mines were a mid 1960s development. ) Later on, the VR ran an oil pipeline from refineries at Altona, near Newport, to South Dynon Loco ( North Melbourne, near Spencer St ), so fuel supply was no longer a problem. Also, in comparative terms the cost of steaming coal rose whilst the cost of diesel fell, so dieselization was a no brainer even then. In the case of BR, the cost and quality of British coal was declining, cost per ton was rising, and the cost of importing oil was falling, so the elimination of steam by 1968 had a significant effect on lowering fuel costs. One aspect of the case for electrification was that it was , and is, more fuel efficient to burn coal in a power station than burn it in a steam locomotive, though not as visually interesting ! Regards, Tumut