Jeepy

But, most of the time, the closed (non-moving) contacts of the switch are only carrying (at most) the max current of the locomotive getting its power via the frog.  That is usually a small fraction of what the DCC system can deliver. 

Thank you, this sort of makes sense to my fuddled brain and inexperience in these things! 

 Best wishes, 

Jim. 

(Why do i have to keep manually deleting everything before i can type what i need to?!?!?) 

Another afterthought!..... How do those people get on who have 5 Amp or even 10 Amp control systems? Doesn't putting the track supply through the tortoise internal auxilary switch burn them out? Just asking! Lol! 

All the best, 

Jim. 

I'm certainly no expert believe me!! As has just been proved lol! 

Waheey! That sort of makes sense now, you need something for the switch to switch if you get my meaning! LOL! It's obvious now I suppose but I was a bit dubious about putting track power to the tortoise for fear of blowing it! Live and learn! 

I have metal rail joiners all round as I was led to believe insulating ones weren't really necessary with unifrog on DCC, (The design of the unifrog is such that it's only the very tip and not the whole frog)  unlike the usual electrofrog on which there is the possibility of a short occurring.....problem is I've glued the turnouts down now and it would cause a real headache to replace with insulating joiners but I guess I could always use a slitting disc to create a gap on the frog rails if I get any problems? Every section of track has droppers soldered to it including every turnout so it wouldn't have any adverse effect if I cut them in situ I suppose...…..This is a kind of eureka moment for me! Thanks ever so much! Also thank you for posting the picture,

Best wishes,

Jim.

Ah! Yes, perhaps that's what is missing!?!? That was my afterthought! Should the track power be attached to terminals 2 & 3 then? Terminal 4 being the common for these and terminal 5 being the common for 6 & 7? Thanks ever so much, it doesn't actually mention this in the intstruction leaflet but i guess the diagram is self explanatory, this is my first experience of tortoise machines, it mentions the internal switches only being capable of switching 1 Amp maximum although the terminals can carry 4 Amps so i presume that would be ok? I am using an NCE Powercab for the track supply/DCC control, sorry if i seem a bit clueless! Thank you! 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

Hello,

I've tried doing a search on the forum but didn't find anything mentioning my particular puzzle so please accept my apologies if this has been presented before! Even a pointer or link to a particular thread may help a great deal.

Anyway, I am in the process of doing test runs with a Hornby peckett 0-4-0 to make sure my unifrogs are working ok because that's the loco that would be the most likely to show if the frogs are dead or alive I should think!

My set up is OO gauge Peco code 75 bullhead unifrog turnouts utilising tortoise machines wired through a home made control panel with a conventional DC power supply with DPDT ON-ON switches but the track power is DCC, in my estimation this shouldn't be having any effect on this particular problem I wouldn't have thought but I am a bit of a newbie so you never know! 

The Peckett is finding all the frogs dead and stalling but the frogs should be alive as far as I am concerned, i could be missing something here which i'm hoping someone might be able to shed a bit of light on please?

The turnout motors are working fine and I have run a wire from the frog to terminal 4 on the tortoise which I think should be the common terminal for one of the two internal auxiliary switches on the tortoise according to the diagram on the instruction sheet but as I said the frog still seems to be dead! So what i'm asking is have I done the right thing or am I missing something out here please? Thanks ever so much! 

Best wishes,

Jim.

P.S. I've just thought of something, should there be a track power supply to the tortoise to enable the internal auxiliary switch to operate? 

That's a shame, I went through my pile of old mags thinking I've got a pannier papers mag, I found it but it's no4! The 57xx engines: 87xx, 96xx, 97xx.......any good? 

Cheers, 

Jim. 

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The DCC aspect is the simplest bit! Ensuring that the well is a right cylinder is important. (I had to obtain a replacement segment from Peco because one in the pack was distorted.) Once all assembled I looked at how much the well base deflected with 500g+ locos turning on it, and how this affected track alignment. Long story short, I ended up building a subframe which supports the drive and bridge, fully independently of the well, which takes no significant load.

Ah! Definitely something to look into, thanks, 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

Hi folks, 

Just to cap this off, I have been having lengthy discussions with a friend who's much more familiar with DCC than I and I seem to have been 'persuaded' to go down the DCC control route of turnouts and signals via a NCE mini panel and switch 8 board! Apparently it won't take much 'juice' from the bus and I can build my own switch panel to incorporate into it, I have purchased the mini panel and switch 8 board but have yet to purchase the Tortoise motors, I didn't realise they can be adapted to control semaphore signals too! Just spreading the cost but once I have all the gear I'll still have no idea so I'll probably be on everyone's earhole once I get around to installing it all! Lol! 

That's about the conclusion of it really for now, thanks to all who contributed to this very informative thread! 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

Ooh, that's interesting, ta! I happen to have a biscuit tin full of old Meccano bits and I have the worm drive, shafts and cogs in there too, that's what i'm planning on using to make a crank handle for it......the shafts I have are a tiny bit oversize for the hole in the block under the deck so i'm going to have to bore it out a little, all good fun! 

Best wishes,

Jim.

4 hours ago, BR60103 said:

The worst thing that will happen (if you wire it right) will be a little blip in the sound machines as it goes over the dead spots.

 

Thank you, that makes sense..... I'm not planning on sound at the moment but you never know! Basically it'll be one entrance road, 180 degree turn of the loco and then leaving the turntable on the same road, I'm going to try and be faithful to the actual location as it was. 

I've just finished putting the well together and weathering it, also the bridge/deck, I've got some old Meccano bits and pieces and the turntable will be situated fairly near the baseboard edge so I'm going to try and 'knock up' some sort of manual mechanism to turn it.....I'm mixing old school with modern tech! Good fun! 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

4 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

IIRC the tracks fed to one half of the turntable are wired the same as the feed tracks but all output tracks on the other side of the dead section have to have their polarity switched, so all tracks on the left half are wired for example black to track nearest and red to track farthest (other colours are available) and the tracks on the right hand side are wired red to nearest and black to farthest.

 

Hope you can understand what I wrote, it was much clearer in my head, the instructions should cover what's needed.

That's great thank you, I was mainly concerned with the effects of a 180 degree turn of the deck as the place this layout is based on the turntable didn't have any exit roads, it was purely for turning locomotives and didn't have a stabling area or shed but I must admit I keep getting tempted to put a couple of roads in!..... I'm resisting so far! Lol! I shall bear in mind what you've said for future reference 

Best wishes 

Jim 

Thanks ever so much guys! As far as the dead sections are concerned I'll just make sure there's no rails where those positions are, I had a suspicion it would be OK but I'm reassured now, thank you! 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

Hello! Only me!

I'm currently in the process of building the Peco OO well type turntable kit which will be mechanically operated as far as turning it is concerned but the layout is, or will be, DCC controlled...…….Before I finalise putting it together and installing it does anyone know if I need to wire it in any particular way for DCC track feed apart from the normal way (Feed and return to the tags underneath) to avoid any adverse effects like possible shorts when the deck is turned through 180 degrees or will it not matter please? 

I guess if it's not a problem I can just wire the tags underneath the deck to the bus lines as if they were normal dropper wires and also the roads leading to it and from it? Thanks for any wisdom you can impart to this DCC newbie! 

Best wishes,

Jim.

2 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

 

First! Why did my post appear twice. Who knows?

 

Secondly, if you can solder components to a printed circuit board, then it may be worth the £16 to join MERG. They sell the Megapoints Board as a kit for £30 and the power supply for about £14.

 

Dave.

Thanks for the tip about MERG Dave...…..I've just noticed one of my posts has appeared twice!?!?  

The last one on page one and the first one on page 2 lol!...….unless the last post on one page automatically gets brought forward to the next? I don't think so though, very strange! 

I do have trouble with my fingers being too big sometimes when I'm using my phone for texts, perhaps I inadvertently whacked a button I shouldn't have done with a stray digit! 

Best wishes,

Jim.

I've just been perusing through the Megapoints website that Dave mentioned earlier (Twice actually! Lol!) and there's some fascinating equipment there which I think will suit my needs no end! They even sell the power supply for the Servo control board...... I'm seriously considering going down that route at the moment, I've seen and heard Megapoints mentioned but never really took much notice of what they were all about until now, I just assumed oh it's technical DCC electrickery and my senses just glazed over then lol!...... Looks very interesting, I'm thinking the amount of money I would spend on motors for half a dozen turnouts then servos and control system for signalling would be the same if not more than a Megapoints system to do both tasks in one go praps! I've got some reading to do! Thanks for all your contributions to the thread so far, 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

2 hours ago, Dominion said:

On the OP's original question, yes you can do what you describe.

I have old cobalts, cobalt IPs and cobalt digital IPs and solenoids on my layout all co-existing happily.

Some of my turnouts are controllable from a DCC input, either from entering an accessory command on my NCE controller but more often from push buttons on an NCE mini-panel.

However these turnouts and all the other turnouts are also operable from analogue inputs.

Also yes the switched power outputs on my cobalts are completely independent from the control input circuit, so there is no problem driving the switch machine in an analogue way and running DCC track power through the separate in-built switches for frog power. 

 

Though not what you are asking, interestingly you can also do the opposite, i.e. have DC track power for the frog through the switch and DCC point motor control. That sounds a bit strange but I have one track loop that I have on a separate power bus that I can switch to DC sometimes for running in locos and for running locos I may never get around to chipping. Where that track loop runs through my scenic section over turnouts with DCC controlled slow acting point motors the track power at that time is DC and it still works fine.

 

Good luck with your project. Tom

 

Wow! That's all good to know.... A whole new world is opening up to me! , thanks Tom. 

Best wishes 

Jim. 

1 hour ago, Dominion said:

On the OP's original question, yes you can do what you describe.

I have old cobalts, cobalt IPs and cobalt digital IPs and solenoids on my layout all co-existing happily.

Some of my turnouts are controllable from a DCC input, either from entering an accessory command on my NCE controller but more often from push buttons on an NCE mini-panel.

However these turnouts and all the other turnouts are also operable from analogue inputs.

Also yes the switched power outputs on my cobalts are completely independent from the control input circuit, so there is no problem driving the switch machine in an analogue way and running DCC track power through the separate in-built switches for frog power. 

 

Though not what you are asking, interestingly you can also do the opposite, i.e. have DC track power for the frog through the switch and DCC point motor control. That sounds a bit strange but I have one track loop that I have on a separate power bus that I can switch to DC sometimes for running in locos and for running locos I may never get around to chipping. Where that track loop runs through my scenic section over turnouts with DCC controlled slow acting point motors the track power at that time is DC and it still works fine.

 

Good luck with your project. Tom

 

Wow! That's all good to know.... A whole new world is opening up to me! , thanks Tom. 

Best wishes 

Jim. 

2 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

Thanks Dave, 

Best wishes 

Jim. 

2 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

The Megapoints Servo control board does Points and semaphores together.

 

Dave

Thanks again Dave! Lol! 

2 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

I have a shunting layout where the points are DCC controlled. My reason for doing this was to us the route selection option that is available with DCC. It takes a bit of care to set up, When sorted you only need to select Route 3 for example then all the points will set themselves to the correct position for a route from B to Z, if you get my drift.

If you like operating signal box style levers or switches then DC is the way I would go.

 

Gordon A

Interesting! Yes I like the idea of operating turnouts and signals from a track diagram panel similar to what you would see in a power signal box, either that or operating miniature levers appeals to me, i don't really fancy having to keep punching codes into the DCC unit personally although this suits some people, all down to personal preference of course, I have even considered wire in tube with some sort of add on method of changing frog polarity but the jury is still out while I gather and digest all the great information you're all putting forward, thank you! 

Best wishes,

Jim.

41 minutes ago, RAF96 said:

JIm

SMPS - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

 

Ahh! That explains that then, smashing! Thank you! 

39 minutes ago, Phil S said:

In your last reply you mentioned your desire to keep the track power for trains rather than points: if this is because you are thinking that the POWER to operate the points by DCC comes from the DCC bus, then this is not always true.....

Many accessory decoders take there power from a 16Vac or 12-20Vdc  separate power supply , or Optionally, from the DCC. ('Track')

( Historically 16Vac has been 'available' - but as old-fashioned transformers are phased out of use for being inefficient heavy and expensive, and replaced by SMPS DC power supplies, the ability to use  a DC supply is increasingly needed or desirable.....the latest Roco Accessory decoder takes 20Vdc for its power ...or the DCC track signal ...which, of course it uses for control, anyway. )

 

Alternatively, for solenoid type motors, CDU decoders charge themselves over a few seconds from the (track DCC (or other) ) supply which will not impact greatly on the provision of power to trains.   

Note that many 'modern' accessory devices are ambivalent to ac or DC as they rectify the incoming supply to DC for the internal electronics.

An exception I have is the Lens LS150 6 output accessory decoder which DOES require an AC supply ..NOT DC, to operate.

 

As having been mentioned ... Once your points and other accessories are controlled via DCC, then you have much more freedom is how and where you control your railway ..... Ranging from corded or wireless handheld controllers, smart phones or tablets, and / or large flat panel track mimic display....which can ALL show the current setting of the point(s) at no further cost.      .( Whilst dynamically showing the occupancy of trains on sections DOES require extra hardware across the whole layout, and therefore expenditure ...)

 

These 'soft' displays .. Ranging from the Multimaus's simple L/R graphic for each accessory, through  small I individual displays on phones or tablets to the communal large screen displays ( which can be repeated for any viewers. ). .....touch screen, mouse or switch .... All being examples of prototype practice.    ....but all these options start with integrating the points and other accessories into the single DCC system.

That's interesting,  thanks for your input Phil, (Excuse the pun!) Just a quick question to you, when you say an 'SMPS' power supply for DC what is that? Thanks,

Best wishes, 

Jim.

40 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Hi Jim

The digital “ip” version of the Cobalt motors are fitted with an onboard accessory decoder for use with DCC control of the turnouts.

They can also be switched via direct wiring to switches or buttons.

If you’re not going to use DCC to operate the turnouts, nor plan to do so at some later stage, don’t buy the decoder fitted motors, as it would be a waste of both money and the unused electronics.

 

Note that DCC control of turnouts and signals can also be done via a switch panel, or mimic panel with switches or buttons, or even a mini lever frame assembly.

If there are a large number of turnouts, the DCC option would save a considerable amount of wiring, but would cost more for that convenience.

Frog switching is usually isolated from the motor’s power supply.

Very useful info, thank you! There will only be about half a dozen turnouts, also a turntable and a small scattering of signals but I would like to keep the available track power purely for train control, no sound though but maybe some coach interior lights, my question has been answered quite thoroughly thank you all........ Although I've got a few more things to consider now! Cost is not a major issue as it's a smallish layout or will be, (traverser and baseboards all built and set up and I have a track plan scribbled out) but I just need to come to a decision about turnout control etc before actually laying track, I've just purchased a NCE Powercab so interesting times ahead for me! 

Best wishes, 

Jim. 

23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Operating points by DCC is a completely separate choice from driving trains with it. There are good reasons for using it & not using it.

Switching frog polarity is a completely different circuit to operating the point itself.

Excellent! Thank you

Best wishes 

Jim. 

12 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

The short answer is yes. I would use a servo linked to a micro switch for DC point operation with an interface for DC control of servos. There are several manufacturers who make these units.

 

Tortoise or Cobalt can switch points using DC with out any interface but can cost more than  the servo option.

 

Gordon

Ahh! Thank you! That sounds like another option to consider...... Especially as I would like to control signals via servos, perhaps even from the same 'interface' which would simplify things somewhat as well as being less costly, hmmmm! 

That's given me something to think about, 

Best wishes, 

Jim