magmouse

Thanks, Kit.

21 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Netherport extends 'cross the water, perhaps in Dartmouth like fashion?

That isn't the topography I was imagining, but it is an interesting thought. I need to sketch some maps....

I am perpetually torn between the pleasure I get from researching the finer details and realising them in a model, such as the correct method to rope a particular load, and a desire for something lighter, more whimsical, in the vein of the Madder Valley (the name Netherport is of course a nod in that direction). The wagons I have been posting about so far are of course more towards the former, but my mental image of Netherport definitely leans the other way. Can these things co-exist satisfactorily? We will see, but that will be the central tension that defines Netherport as and when it takes physical form, and it will either make it collapse inwards, conceptually, or it will energise it!

Perhaps Netherport's actual function is to remain essentially mythical, a kind of Brigadoon, emerging from and disappearing into the mist. 

Anyway - stop daydreaming - it's time for lunch!

Nick.

4 minutes ago, Schooner said:

In fact, in LSWR guise the new layout might well be on the opposite river bank to Netherport!

I like that idea!

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do both; as the bringer of bad news (courtesy of Turton's Fourth Collection, p. 141) I am weeping.

 

United Anthracite Collieries Ltd. went into liquidation in 1893, its assets being purchased by the neighbouring Gwaun-cae-Gurwen Colliery Co. (There was no connection with the 1920s firm of the same name.)

 

Wagon No. 1409 was one of a batch of 50 hired from Gloucester in December 1891 - the Gloucester official photo has the date March 1892. As a hired wagon, it will undoubtedly have gone back to Gloucester when united failed; the firm had also bought 50 wagons from Gloucester and was defaulting on payment for those as well as on the hire fees; the Gloucester Co. had unwisely accepted United shares in lieu of cash.

 

The number 1409 is typically spurious. United had 18 wagons of 1870s vintage from its previous incarnation as the Hendreforgan Colliery Co.; Turton records 129 wagons hired from Gloucester over the period 1888 - 1891, excluding the ones mentioned above, but some of the hire periods were as short as three months. It's possible that 1,100-odd wagons were hired from other firms but from the story of the company's precarious finances, and the size of the wagon fleets of other Swansea Vale collieries, that seems unlikely.

 

As a final twist of the knife, the dimension board in the Gloucester official photo of No. 1409 records that the internal length was 16' 0", i.e. 16' 6" over headstocks - unusually long for the period - and it looks it from the distance between spring shoes and headstocks. At least it didn't have bottom doors.

 

Sorry about all this. You have to remember that at the time Slater's first produced these kits, a lot of this information wasn't available. How easy is it to remove the lettering?

Ouch! I'd rather build a new wagon than re-letter an existing one. Anyone modelling 1892 in 7mm scale?

Nick.

Afterthought - or I follow the same logic that allows Netherport to exist. If there can be a fold in the map on the Dorset coast, there is perhaps a counterfactual in which United scrapped along as a business, supported by sales of coal to a prosperous south coast port... 

36 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Totally unacceptable, standards slipping, subscription cancelled.

I am sorry to hear you are dissatisfied with our service. A full refund will be remitted to you within 21 days.

Nick.

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I like your adjustments to the brake gear - I shall have to go and look more carefully at my 4 mm models! I agree with you about the spurious floor bolt-heads, The side knees were bolted to the middle bearers and the floorboards shaped to clear them. The wagon as modelled has no bottom doors - which gets you out of making a representation of the release catch on the underside of the solebar - but I'm going to look the prototype up!

 

I am confident that as your are striving for the very highest standards you will be open to some observations and will take them in the constructive spirit in which they are intended. The interior ironwork of Gloucester wagons of this type has been much mulled over in 4 mm scale. I became so unhappy with my interpretation that I filled the wagons with coal loads! I think @Andy Vincent has got it right with his 3D-printed bodies, available from Brassmasters.

 

I have to part company with DJ Parkin on several points regarding the interior diagonals. These, I believe, serve a more significant structural function than just bracing the side sheeting - witness the fact that they are bolted to the solebar at the bottom end.

 

At the door end, the diagonal, I am convinced, extends to overlap the end knee, so that it is bracing that component which, since it supports the hinge bar, is subject to considerable longitudinal forces when the wagon is end-tipped.

 

The diagonal at the fixed end is a strap-bolt; it projects through the corner plate and carries a large nut on a big angled-profile washer. This is the most significant feature missing from the Slater's Gloucester kits, in 4 mm and 7 mm scale:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways mrs1081.]

 

Gloucester wagons are over-represented, largely because of data bias in our knowledge of PO wagons of this period - the Gloucester photograph archive is large and relatively accessible. What I have come to realise, certainly for c. 1902, is that they're also generally rather modern - the wagons I've modelled turn out to be no more than five years old or so. (Setting aside those that date from 1903-5!) Even only modelling wagons to the 1887 RCH specification distorts the scene - such wagons were no more than 15 years old by 1902, 21 years by 1908; one needs a good proportion of old dumb-buffer wagons! 

Thanks Stephen. You are quite right on all these points. Adding the external bolts and nuts for the diagonals at the fixed end would be a straightforward improvement to make. Extending the diagonals internally at the door end also, with a strip of plasticard. At the fixed end, the diagonal meets a substantial L-shaped internal washer plate, which at least looks convincing, even if it isn't 100% correct.

The absence of bottom doors is a fair point - a colliery wagon like this would probably have them. The real error, actually, is that if you look at the picture in Keith Montague's book on Gloucester POs of 1409, is that the real one was longer than the kit. I realised this after applying the number, of course, and was wondering why the United lettering seemed more spaced out in the picture than on the model. There's always something...

I have another Ocean kit to do, which will also be empty, so I can address these points then and see if we can ratchet the standard up a little. It will of course be another Gloucester 6-plank, and I do need more variety, as you indicate. I am planning a fictitious coal merchant for Netherport, with some older wagons, including dumb buffered.

Nick.

30 minutes ago, airnimal said:

You are setting the bar for us mere mortals. 

Hardly - I'm just putting kits together. You are setting the bar for scratch-building!

The brake vans are great, but what I love about the video most of all is - as Stephen notes - the sense of winter tea-time, the lamps having been lit. Time to go in for a cuppa and a toasted teacake!

Nick.

Great, thank you.

Nick.

27 minutes ago, kitpw said:

do you know of any drawings or diagrams of the outside link braking equipment as fitted to 4 wheel stock? 

In short - no. However, I haven’t started looking in earnest yet. I need to get my head round clasp vacuum brakes without the outside linkages first, for a fitted iron mink I’m dabbling with….

Nick.

12 minutes ago, kitpw said:

bail (not bale)

Ah, that could explain it. Though, as you say, if it was intended to routinely carry a partition, surely some kind of fixings would be provided. And again, I haven't seen a photo of that.

Nick.

2 hours ago, kitpw said:

I'm beginning to wonder if some misunderstanding has crept in over time and that there was a indeed a change but from one style of metal bracket to a different style of metal bracket, some of which were fitted to the later N1 'boxes. Was there ever a wooden bracket?

I share your skepticism.

And while we are slaying myths… is there any evidence the little platform was actually used to carry hay? I haven’t seen a photo showing that, and it seems daft to keep it outside, where it would need to be covered by some kind of tarpaulin.

I am more of the view the platform is just ‘spare’ space, based on the size of the horse compartment plus groom’s compartment, relative to an underframe that has a minimum length to give a reasonable ride at passenger speeds.

Nick.

46 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I note that there are no up and over type handrails evident and presumably no end steps. 

The Tavender drawing shows a style of handrail that does not loop over onto the roof - it curved round and stops just below the top of the end. I suspect the horse box in the picture above has that type. Possibly the ones with the loop were a later type, and retro-fitted - the second Tavender drawing, showing an N1 converted to a tool van, shows handrails with loops. 
 

Nick.

30 minutes ago, kitpw said:

or have I missed something?

Possibly a typo? The Tavender drawing shows a straight bracket, and the plan view has a thin line that seems to indicate the material thickness of the vertical part of an L-section, so metal. The N2 diagram in Russell's GW Coaches has a straight bracket, but not enough detail to know if it is wood or metal.

This is a fragment of a photo (Russell's GWR Miscellany, vol 1) of horse box 129, showing a curved end bracket - but it looks like metal, not wood, to me. Surely if it was wood we would see more thickness?

From the same book, this photo shows the end detail clearly, including the construction of the straight metal bracket:

So far, I haven't seen a picture that shows wooden brackets - do the John Lewis articles have any photos or other documents that show those?

Nick.

Thanks for posting this, Mikkel, which I hadn't seen before. It's hard to tell about the roof detail, with it being so over-exposed. Looking at the far edge of the roof of the first horse box, where it is silhouetted against the end of the next one, you can see two little protrusions that are the tops of the handrails. In between is another slight protrusion, which could be the lamp top.

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

However, the drawing of an N1 in John's article does not show them either - although he says they were fitted.

The Tavender drawing also doesn't show them (are they the same drawing?), though it does show a flat something in roughly the same place on the roof, about where the lamp would go.

Also of interest (at least to me!) in the Paddington picture is the scenery truck, nearest the camera, being loaded with stage flats from the open top horse drawn vehicle. I can't quite read the writing - "something Hester Bros."? Curiously, the flats still on the horse-drawn wagon look too large to fit the width of the scenery truck when lying down...

Nick.

Yes, I have Slinn's book - it's hard to get, now, and is advertised at silly prices, but I managed to find a copy on Spanish eBay, of all places, for a sensible amount.

Dave Haines' coach builds in plasticard (bodies) and brass (chassis) are exquisite.

The outside-linkage brake gear certainly looks tricky - I haven't tried it yet, but I have the parts for a 4-wheel siphon, which will need it. The Broad Gauge Society do what looks like a very useful etched brass fret of underframe parts, including all the brake gear bits, so I am aiming to use that.

Are you a member of the Gauge O Guild? The forum there has a thread by Dave Haines on his carriage build, with clear photos of his brake gear, which might be useful. https://www.gaugeoguild.com/xenforo/index.php?threads/shelf-queen-carriages.6416/post-186106

Nick.

1 hour ago, kitpw said:

Like this one?

From Tavender's Railway Equipment drawings, listed as a GWR N1 horse box...was N2 similar/same?  Bit early for my 1927 date but tempting for sure!

Now that's very naughty, you just made me order another book.

The N2 looks very similar, looking at the drawing in Russell's Pictorial Record of GW Coaches (vol 1, p.23), except the N2 is 15'6" OH, rather than 16'0" in Tevender's drawing. The difference in length is taken up in the shorter platform on the N2 - 1'6" instead of 2'. Also the N2 has panelling for the groom's compartment, not exposed planks:

Also, see Russell's GW Miscellany volume 1 plate 34 for the interior of a horse box N2 (early type, with small platform at one end). Also plate 106, showing - unusually - the end and roof of an N2.

Nick.

This is looking great, Kit. I especially like the springs - having them assembled from their constituent parts is so much nicer than cast or moulded.

I have a D&S kit for the earlier N4 (no turn under on either sides or ends) waiting in my stash, which I keep looking at. In the longer term, I fancy scratch-building an N2, with the little open platform at one end.

Looking forward to seeing the finished item!

Nick.

20 minutes ago, Chrisbr said:

Nik,

 

Another fantastic, well observed build, bring the ordinary to life

 

Can't wait for the next installments

 

Chris

 

Thanks Chris - the pace will be slowing down soon, as I have almost caught up with the wagons already built before I started posting here, and I certainly don't build a wagon a week! I also want to post some thoughts about the eventual layout depicting Netherport, but hopefully I will be able to keep whetting the appetites of all the wagonistas out there. Getting feedback, and above all the interesting comments and exchanges of ideas has been great, and I am very grateful to everyone who has taken the time to read and respond to my posts.

Nick.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

I'm having the greatest difficulty reconciling myself to this newfangled grey livery for Great Western wagons - it just doesn't look right.

Get yourself some orthochromatic glasses, then you won’t notice the difference. Or just rose-tinted ones.

You can subscribe to the blog, not just individual posts, which should give you notifications of new posts?

35 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I had a vague idea it was carbuncles

Well, they would make an interesting load too - stacked parts for modernist additions to 19th century art galleries (cf Prince - now King - Charles and the National Gallery extension).

Thanks, Kit - it's very interesting to have that figure for the design deflection. However, is it 3/8" deflection per ton for the total load, or the load per spring? Even a 12T open only has 3 tons per spring, if it is evenly distributed, and the rulebooks note how wagon capacity has to be derated when the load is towards one end (such as overhanging timber loads).

Nick.

28 minutes ago, kitpw said:

I think our leg's being pulled

Well, if special provisions were made for the carriage of elephants...

28 minutes ago, kitpw said:

And there is much to be said for the "commonplace"

Indeed - I am mostly managing to resist the temptation of the unusual, in terms of wagons and loads, though I have rather too many non-GWR trucks on my list for my pre-common user period. The thing will be to not run them all at once.

Nick.

40 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

I agree, your wagons just get better and better Nick. I like the aluminium tape idea, must try that out and see if it works in 4mm.

 

The straw sticking out is a nice little detail. I've been wondering what might be in there which needs packing with straw. It could be a couple of Platypus, as the March 1908 instructions (page 26, bottom right) says to pack these in ample straw - but would small livestock not have been carried in a van?

 

Perhaps it's a shipment of... now what's the right word: Those big glass flasks packed in crates with straw?

 

Thanks, Mikkel. The straw sticking out comes from a picture in Atkins, ‘GWR Goods Services’ part 2B, p.299, where it can be seen on a wagon in the bottom left corner. My thought of livestock in this truck may well be a bit fanciful - as you say, a van is more likely. Regarding the glass flasks, I think the word you were thing of is 'carboys' - used for acids and similar hazardous fluids. As I am sure you know, there is a great picture of these in Jim Russell's GWR Freight Wagons and Loads, showing a GW 3-planker full of carboys packed in straw.

Nick.