Steve Hewitt

The wiring diagram must be a work of art ,it looks so neat and tidy how long did it take to get it all done?

As I commented previously to this; I am unable to answer the question myself.

However, John and Geoff have disussed my response and provided the following comments, which once again shows the way that the whole team on the Lime Street project work - aiming for the best, "cos we can".

John and Geoff write:-

" Regarding the wiring and documentation. This is an area that gets little or no coverage in the model press. As Steve rightly says, Geoff and I are both ex. BT, indeed we go back to the days of the GPO Engineering department.

Looking at the underside of any of the baseboards, in most cases, neither of us would have a clue what any of the wires were for. But using the documentation, we are able to work out what wire is for what, and then resolve any problems.(With a bit of luck and a following wind!)

Geoff and I have our own areas of responsibility. I did all the baseboard wiring, including power feeds, point wiring, CCTV wiring etc. Geoff did all the clever stuff in the two boxes of electronics (known as the X-box, and the Y-box). Also Geoff built, and wired the control panels.

For the baseboards, there are three full ring binders, dealing with the traction feeds, point wiring, and indeed every type of circuit on that baseboard.

Every inter-baseboard plug and socket is identified and numbered, giving details of what colour of wire, type of circuit, and where the wire goes to for every pin. There are some 2500 connections made every time the layout is set up.

For Geoff’s part, he has some 20 plus folders giving details of every electronic circuit he has made for the layout, these also show (sometimes illustrated with captioned photographs) printed circuit board layouts, and all components used etc. we both have all this information backed up on three computers along with all the software for the various processors used.

I hope the above will give food for thought, whilst what we have done may seem “over the top”, remember this is a very complex layout with a high degree of sophistication, anything less would have been a recipe for disaster. "

This subject could almost be worth a Topic in its own right?

Steve.

Which can be changed, as was covered in post #3 above. The standard firmware was intended for points.

Regards

Keith

Hi Keith,

Thanks for reminding me. In post #3, you said:

"MERG now has firmware available for the serv4 designed for signals. This provides for up to 3 individually adjustable bounce positions at each end of the travel. Each of the 4 servos can be adjusted separately. The original version was designed for points where bounce is not usually wanted."

Am I right in thinking that the new firmware cannot be used with the MERG Setter Box?

If so, is a PC connection needed for signal adjustment?

regards,

Steve.

 

Having said that, for future board builds I'll be looking into making the connection for the setting box on a lead to the baseboard edge. Beats grubbing about under the board looking for the socket to make adjustments. I don't think this would be an option with the GFcontrols board.

 

......snipped.....

 

Wouldnt mind one of those 16 way boards thats been made for Lime Street though

JF

Hi Jon,

I'd suggest mounting the G F Controllers near the baseboard edge, possibly on a drop down sort of mount.

I believe from RC users that you can safely use extensions of the servo cables up to 2 meters to facilitate this.

You can then twiddle the controls whilst watching the signal in relative comfort.

(Learnt this lesson years ago using Embedded Controls units on our clubs 00 layout "Oxenholme"

Lying under the baseboard whilst someone shouts "up a bit, down a bit" isn't a pleasure, particularly when you can't remember which way is "up".)

If you want a special board building, I suggest you contact Geoff at G F Controls directly, via their website.

Steve.

The MERG Servo4 comes in at £1.50 per servo for the electronics so you have a significant saving on the first four signals even including the first years' subscription to MERG. The electronic assembly for these kits is IMHO easier than building the working signals to go with it.

Regards

Keith

I agree that the MERG unit delivers the lowest cost option to someone seeking a servo controller for semaphore signals.

I've had one for a few years and demonstrate it regularly at exhibitions.

It is limited in two aspects:

1. The relatively un-sophisticated movement of the signal.

2. The requirement to have a Setting Box, to make adjustments. The cost and investment in time to build one of these must be considered when comparing costs.

The setting box kit from MERG is not quite so straight forward as the servo controller kit to contruct!

The alternative of linking up a PC via a serial cable connection and downloading software from the Internet is even less user friendly.

The G F Controls unit is particularly suitable for customers who don't wish to construct their own controllers for whatever reason.

Steve.

Can't disagree that it looks the part, but the downside is the price you pay to have joggle controls permanently fitted - which theoretically you would only ever need to use once during installation.

The resulting £12 per servo control (excluding the servo itself) seems a bit over the top.

Interesting also that there seems to be a facility for connecting a setting box to it, going by the board legend.

The leading servo controller for semaphoire signals has for many years been the "Embedded Controls" unit, which had a good representation of the signal movement, and control of the limits of movement by two analogue potentiometers.

When last available on the market, these were bringing prices up to £15.00 each, without servo.

Each unit controlled one servo.

You're correct that the board is designed to eventually take a socket for connecting a setting box.

This is intended to allow user control of all the movement parameters, which are currently pre-set variables in the software in the PIC. I cannot say when the setting box will be available as its development is totally outside my control.

Steve.

The wiring diagram must be a work of art ,it looks so neat and tidy how long did it take to get it all done?

I can't tell you, 'cos I don't know.

I only joined John's team when the majority of the electrics had been done.

I do know that everything is fully documented; every wire, connection, device etc. and filed in manuals.

This probably has something to do with John and Geoff having both been BT engineers before retirement.

Steve.

Met the guy who has constructed the mechanisims for these signals at the Southport Show on Sunday - nice guy. The signals in the flesh are a complete work of joy

Thanks for your compliments.

You must have met Les, the guy doing the roof as well, 'cos he was sat next to me!

Steve.

It's quite a while since I started this topic, and it's been quiet for a while now.

There has recently been a new development coming onto the market for servo controllers...

For a long time now I've been working with John Holden's team on his Liverpool Lime Street project. Besides being operator, I've built all the semaphore Signals.

One member of the team, Geoff, has developed all the electronic control systems for it.

These include the Route Setting computer, the sector plate and turntable controllers etc. etc.

His latest development has been the servo control system for the semaphore signals.

On the Lime Street project this has been developed as an integrated system, with capacity for up to sixteen servos per control board, fully integrated with the Route Setting computer.

However, as a spin off he has developed a two-servo controller for the general market.

This is a picture of it:

The main features are:

1. 12v dc power supply required.

2. Two independent controllers.

3. Each controller switchable between "simple" and "bounce" modes.

4. Switchable "Safe" mode sets both controllers to "mid position".

5. "Joggle" controls for adjusting each controller's position independently.

6. Fully digital technology. i.e. No analogue adjusters.

These Servo Controllers, and a Turntable drive unit using stepper motor technology again as used on Lime Street, are marketted by G F Controls. See their website : http://www.gfcontrols.co.uk/

I apologise if my reporting this new product is in any way biased, but having been involved at the edges of its development it is natural I suppose.

Steve.

 

 

I'll post details of how we have installed the signals on this board as soon as I can......

 

Steve.

So here are some details of the first signals we installed on Wednesday.

(The first semaphore was actually installed quite a long time ago, and it has controlled the Slow Down Line from just behind the Signal Box).

You may have spotted the Platform 1 starter signal in recent photos on RMweb.

This is the bracket with two dolls and three arms.

It was the first to be tackled, and having been in-situ for some time, it only required its servos to be connected to the control board for it to function.

First step was to remove the "horns" from each servo. Then connect the servo cable, via a short extension cable to the correct termination on the control board.

Having set the switch to "Safe" as described previously, this ensures the servo motor moves to its mid-position.

The horn is then re-attached, with the signal arm in a mid-position as well.

Cancel the safe switch, and adjust the Danger and Clear positions of the signal arm using the Setter Box.

The picture below shows the the three servos on the Platform 1 signal after they have all be connected to the control board.

You can see the servos in the bottom left of the picture, with their leads looping up to the control board and their termination on locations 2, 3 and 4. (No. 1 is reserved for the signal I still have to build!)

Here you can see the first signalled movement from Platform 1, with the loco permitted to leave the platform for a shunting movement.

The next signal to be installed was the Gantry, which carries three arms for each of Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5.

The building of this signal was posted on the old RMweb, but it is also referred to much earlier in this currnet topic.

Because of the existing installation of point motors etc. on the baseboard, the Gantry couln't have its servos mounted immediately below, and had to have its servo mounting board set off some inch or two below.

The servo board with all the servos shorn of their Horns.

The two large holes locate the board relative to the signal.

The little brass tubes with wires sprouting contain the LEDs for the signal lamps.

This picture of the signal on its carry frame shows the operating rods with the Horns still attached, together with the fibre optic leads for the lamps passing up through the location tubes which are firmly attached to the base of the signal.

You can also see how the servo board is set off from the baseboard on the three screwed bars.

The two jubilee clips ensure the whole Gantry stays in place and doesn't rely on friction like all the other signals.

This shows the re-connection of the horns for two of the signals and the routing of the fibre optics up the relevant tube.

And this is the whole lot, not yet connected to the control board.

(I'd used one long extension cable to set each servo to "Safe" in turn whilst John was out buying more short extension leads!)

Once it was all connected up, and set up with the baseboards still on the bench, we replaced the protective clear acrylic sheets which keep fingers out of delicate areas when the boards are being moved about.

This shot was taken with the camera on its side............

Finally we put the main baseboards back in place and checked out all the routes for correct signalling.

This is a little video clip I took whilst John was checkin all the routes out of Platfoirm 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsU0UOJgnY0

I'm sure there will be more interesting posts as we bring all our little projects to fruition in preparation for our trip to Utrecht next month.

The rate of progress, now the layout has a permanent home, is quite remarkable..........

Steve.

 

 

Today was spent making a jig to hold the trusses in the correct positions so the roof can be completed.

And I thought that's what the bricks were!

Steve.

Whilst Les has been making great progress on the roof structures, the layout has been partly dismantled to allow installation of the control systems for the semaphore signals.

Geoff, electronics wizard, and John spent several hours on Monday installing the main hardware for the system which will control all the servos that drive the semaphore signals.

This will eventually be spread beneath four of the baseboards which have signals installed on them.

The first step on Monday was concentrated on the board which carries platforms 1 to 5, and has a total of 15 semaphore arms on it. (Will eventually be sixteen, when I build the missing signal)

The following pictures will hopefully show what this comprises, and I will try to explain how it works.

Any errors I make in my description I will come back and edit later, when my mistakes are pointed out to me.

First a greneral view under the baseboard, after the control hardware has been installed, but not the signals:

You can see here that the boards are fairly crowded!

The signal control system is fully integrated with the route setting system.

When a route is selected, validated and setup by the soute setting computer, the appropriate signals are cleared, after a delay of about four seconds.

(You can hold the signals for longer if you wish, by pressing the "Signal Inhibit" button during the four second delay period. They will then only be cleared when the Inhibit button is pressed again).

The first part of the control system is the "Node" where the network from the Route Setting computer handles the binary coded instructions for clearing the signals.

It looks like this:

You can see this at the bottom, left of centre in the full view above.

The second part of the system is the control board for the servos themselves.

In this first instance the board can control up to sixteem individual servos, of which fifteen will be installed initially:

As you view the picture, the connections for the sixteen servos are down the left hand edge.

Next to them are the eight PICs which each hold the software to control two servos.

The next items are "opto-isolators" which are sort of relays which ensure naughty electrical things don't damage the Chips.

When the switch for a particular signal is Closed, the software drives the servo to the Danger position.

When the switch is Open, the servo drives the signal to Clear.

The software ensures the motion between Danger and Clear, and vice-versa, simulates a prototypical signal movement.

I hope the result will be seen in a video I hope to load in the future.

As an aside, the PICs and their software in this control system are the same as those commercially available from G & F Controls. (Geoff and his friend Frank).

You may be able to see in the photo, at the bottom, a small slider switch, with a label "Safe".

In the Safe position, this ensures that all the PICs will drive any attached servo to its Mid Position.

This is important during the installation process, and helps to ensure no damage is done to signals by allowing the servos to drive the signal out of range.

When all the signals have been installed, the Danger and Clear postition for each is adjusted using a "Setter Box", which looks like this:

This setter box allows you to select each individual signal by a Hexadecimal selecter showing 0 to 9 and A to F.

Once the "Safe" switch has been cancelled, the box can be used as follows:

Switch it On; select the appropriate signal; set the Danger/Clear switch to the position you wish to adjust and then use the wheel to move the signal. This is like a "Joggle" volme control, it will rotate endlessly giving several "clicks" per revolution. Each click will adjust the bandwidth of the servo position signal by 3 x 1,000,000th sec. The range of movement is limitted in the software to between 1millisec and 2millisec.

This is the conventional range for servos as used in Radio Control models etc.

It also follows that the Safe position is set by the software to exactly 1.5msec.

Most other servo controllers on the market use analogue adjusters, but this system is entirely digital, with values stored automatically in the PIC after each adjustment is made.

The Setter Box is plugged in to the basebaord here:

Once adjustments have been made the box can be disconnected as the adjustments are permanently stored in the software.

I'll post details of how we have installed the signals on this board as soon as I can......

Steve.

Cheers Mick.

Spec colours, always a bit of discussion about that....I use warm white LEDs so I have to use green lenses. I've tried blue but it tends to stay blue! If the light source was yellow then yes.. I'd use blue but yellow LEDs turn the red orange!!

JF

Jon,

Have you tried the LEDs from Helmsman Model Rail (was Electronics)?

see http://www.helmsmanuk.co.uk/ for contact details.

Worth ringing for a chat.

He sells LEDs for "Gas Light" effects which I've used extensively in 4mm scale signals, with the light transmitted via fibre optics.

The colour effect through MSE Red and Blue film is very good to my eye.

Steve.

 

The fiddle yard alone is a work of art. At the heart of it is a microprocessor controlled servo motor operated traverser. (That's not easy to type, never mind say..........................)

 

Cheers,

Mick

And here is the control panel for the fiddle yard.

Like the panel which controls the station end of the layout, it is operated by Entry/Exit commands.

The panel here is set to receive a train on the Up Slow line, and to take it onto Road 5 of the Sector Plate.

This is all indicated by the string of yellow LEDs on the track diagram.

You can also see the view of the Station Throat in the small video monitor.

This is shown automatically as the route is set.

You see a diffderent view depanding on which Platform the departing train is to leave from.

This is all controlled by the Route Setting computer at the Station control panel, and is presented to the Station operators in a similar manner.

In the upper left of the panel you can see the repeaters for the signal aspects.

Once these have cleared you can drive the train from the station to the sector plate.

As the train progresses up the cutting the view in the monitor automatically changes to one from the Signal Box, so you can keep an eye on progress.

The buttons on the top right of the panel then allow you to select from various camera positions as you dispose of the train.

The first will be the view vertically down on the uncouplers (Kaydees), then of the turntable to ensure no overrun etc.

Finally there are several views down the hidden sidings (10 in number) which are each long enough to hold two full length trains.

You can see the whole trackplan on the panel, with 10 hidden sidings, two Up, two Down roads and two headshunts for loco stabling at the left hand side.

The 5 roads of the Sector Plate are aligned with any of these by simply pressing the associated two buttons in sequence.

The coloured buttons on the Up and Down tracks link the computer for the Fiddle Yard with that for the Station Panel, allowing control to be passed between the panels as required.

I hope at some stage to take some proper video of the operation of the Sector Plate and post it on U-Tube, with links here on RMweb.

Steve.

Here are a few "spotters" shots from Wednesday's running session:

A couple of locos at rest on the "buffers". (We're still short of some good LNWR hydraulic buffers!)

Rob looks a bit surprised as a Black 5 gets the Down Fast road into Siding D.

The Black 5 from the previous shot climbs through the cutting with a Parcels train on the Up Fast line as a sister loco waits at the gantry and the Down Slow.

Steve.

It can go wrong though, I was watching at one show and a van/taxi (can't remember which) took a 'wrong turn' and almost went over the edge, luckily it hit the front edge board.

Really?

Ask about the bus and the missing section of bridge next time you see the layout!

Steve.

Liking the use of moving vehicles on the large platform! This has to be the next big thing in exhibition layouts in my opinion.

The car/bus/taxi system has several routes and is integrated with the trams which run along Lime Street.

The routes include Lime Street, up the road parallel to the platforms (whose name escapes me), over the bridges and round the buildings as well as along the platforms, with stopping places for passenger pick-up on the arrival platforms, and set-down on departure platforms.

If there's quiet moment operationally in the Station, there should always be something interesting to see.

Steve.

Rob and I have spent the day with John again.

In addition to one full "run-through" of the operation sequence, we have been checking out what has to be achieved on the layout before we take it to Utrecht at the end of October.

The main sub-projects concerned are:

1) The Satation Roof.

Today Rob returned the last of the Pillars which support the roof itself. These have been individually painted and weathered.

They are now ready for Les to fix in place, using a jig he's made to ensure they are correctly aligned.

He can then accurately measure the footprint of the support points for the 40 Bow String girders, after which these can be assembled! The first such Bow String girder is shown to ineft rear of the above photo.

2) The Semaphore Signals.

I recently completed the final signal, which will be installed on Platforms 9 & 10.

We've checked its location carefully to determine where the servos can be mounted to operate it.

(There's so much gear underneath the Baseboards)

Geoff, the electronics wizard is currently building the control units for the signalling system.

In addition to the servo controllers, which are a 16-servo version of his two-servo commercial units, he has to build the interface with the route setting system, so that when a route is set, the correct signals are cleared.

Remember there are about 420 feasible individual routes on the layout.

All the information about each route is held in a large "truth table", which includes data such as:

From position; To position, identity of each point along the route, and its required position - Normal or Switched; Direction of movement (inbound Down, outbound Up), which signal(s) should be cleared. etc.

John has to determine where all this new hardware will be installed, and how it will integrate into the wiring system and data network which links all the processors together.

3) Scenic developments.

John is currently detailing the roadways, with improved top surfaces, pavings, coping stones etc. etc.

After next weeks operating session - on Tuesday, and Les's measuring excercise, the layout can be dismantled so that a lot of basic work can be done on the ground cover by Rob and John.

Rob is also doing some more Homework on the background/skyscape and weathering one or two locos.

I know Les is busy on the Hotel CAD design, but that will show results post-Utrecht.

The remaining urgent activity for us all is to get some operating hours in.

I've taken more photos today, which I'll post when I have some more time.

Its our Club Show - Blackburn - this weekend!

Steve.

 

The fiddle yard alone is a work of art. At the heart of it is a microprocessor controlled servo motor operated traverser. (That's not easy to type, never mind say..........................)

 

Cheers,

Mick

Hi Mick,

Just to be pedantic, the technology used is a "Stepper Motor" not a "Servo Motor".

The sector plate is moved by a lead screw dragging a captive nut along as it is rotated by the stepper motor.

The technical stuff counts each little part of each revolution of the motor.

Knowing how far the motor has to turn for each track position is set up once by indexing buttons.

After that, its easy.

The motor always arives at the required position in the same direction, to eliminate any "backlash".

If it is running the other way, it simply over-runs a little and then reverses to the exact position.

I do mean exact, to a very small part of a millimetre.

The same Stepper Motor technology is used for the two turntables.

The high speed one at the end of the sector plate, and the scale speed on by the station throat.

As a matter of interest, Geoff who does all the electronic stuff on Lime Street, and his friend Frank have just brought a turnatble drive mechanism to market.

Exactly the same technology as used on Lime Street, but "ready to run".

Just build it into your layout, put a turntable on top and away you go.

They have a stand at Guildex, the Gauge 0 Guild show in a couple of weeks. (GF Controls)

Its possible to get to Blackburn's show at the Hyndburn Leisure Centre and visit Telford on the other day of the weekend, Sep 3rd & 4th.

Unless like Mick, you're exhibiting at the Blackburn Show, as also is John Holden. He's on a demo stand.

See you all there.

Steve.

Prior to the above mentioned opening ceremony a bit of progress was made on the station structure.

 

 

 

The completed columns were trial fitted to the station platforms. They will now be removed for painting before their final glueing in position.

 

Also I managed to knock up the first of the roof trusses on the morning of the opening ceremony. Only another 39 to make!

 

 

The remainder cannot be made until the columns are fixed. Only then can we measure the truss span dimensions. The one I made for the opening ceremony was made to the drawing dimensions. Hopefully this will be correct to at least one of the final measured dimensions!!

Rob is more than half way through the painting of the Columns.

He brought the finished ones today and they do look great!

John is now looking for 4mm pidgeons as they have left several "calling cards" on the Columns.......

Steve.

Those are great pictures Michael.

Rob and I have just had a full day with John.

Most of the time was spent operating with a revised sequence, which seems to improve the efficiency at the Station.

Les dropped in for a few hours to do some more work on the Station Roof and the Hotel.

He left with a quantity of John's books, which I guess are part of his "homework".

Steve.

Hi Les,

Is it possibly due to variations in the metal thickness along it's length? Is there any way of having some sort of alignment guide before and after the rollers to try an keep it in the YY axis?

 

Just another thought - are you doing the bend in one pass? Maybe two or three passes, adding to the curvature each time?

 

How about annealing the brass to make it a bit softer?

 

Cheers,

Mick

I think Mick is probably on the right lines.

If we anneal the deformed beams, we should be able to "twist" them straight again.

They will age harden on their own after a while, so being as strong as the others for use in the structure.

Steve

A bit of progress with the 3D model of the North Western Hotel. The two central towers are now complete.

They are not quite mirror images. One of the towers has two chimney stacks with 7 chimney pots on each stack. The other has one stack with 7 pots on and one with 6 pots on. Never assume anything!!!

 

Les,

Are we going to make it in Marzipan?

Steve

The 3D CAD model of the North Western Hotel is progressing well, as I have shown in a previous post. I have now completed a 'proof of concept' model'. The model is about 1.2m long and is huge!

 

And now for some thing completely different....

Some of you might have seen this in the "Signalling.." area of RMweb, but its all part of Lime Street Station.

This LNWR Duble Arm Ground Signal controls the movement of engines from the turntable to platforms Ten and Eleven.

The model is just 13mm high.

It is worked by two servo motors, mounted "below ground", and is lit by a grain of rice bulb.

If you want to see more about how I made it, see this topic http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/36330-lnwr-miniature-arm-ground-signals/

Steve.

Any UK outings planned? Looks like it would be even more impressive in the flesh, so to speak!

 

Cheers,

 

26power

I believe John has received an invitation to Ally Pally for March 2012.

Steve.

 

 

 

The layout is in a new, permanent, custom built home (more details sometime)

 

 

John and Pauline hosted a barbecue for the builders of the layout's "home shed" and their neighbours who've had to tolerate lots of minor inconveniences during the past six months or more whilst the building has been constructed.

The"Builders" received a great round of applause when they handed over the keys to John,

and John and Pauline then cut the ribbon on the door. (note the address)

A few members of the operating team were on hand to demonstrate the layout to the visitors.

John had even managed to lay on the Red Arrows.

(They flew past an their way to the Southport Air Show.)

Inside, John described the present state of his project, which is in its third incarnation over a period of more than twenty-five years.

The next week or two will see some fairly intensive work on the layout's operation.

We hope to improve the sequence of operations to eliminate undue delays in the movement of traffic in what was quite a busy terminus.

Technical developments will see progress on the station roof and the signal control system before the layout will be partially dismantled to allow the scenics to be progressed.

Progress reports on these will be made as and when we have the opportunity.....

Steve.