NFWEM57

After a bit of a battle with the prototype common crossing solder jig (separate thread) I have managed to make a flat bottom common crossing. Now I can progress the 2nd flat bottom shallow depth turnout. Not perfect, but progress..! Once again, lots of lessons from making the first common crossing solder jig for flat bottom rail. Patrick

Update on Flat Bottom Common Crossing Jig First Point, i should really change the title; of this thread to Bullhead / Flat Bottom Crossing Vee and Flat Bottom Common Crossing Solder Jigs. Alas, unable. Moderator action I guess. In the end, 8.5mm between nose and neck was correct, there was a misalignment in the jig. After 2 further attempts I managed to solder up a flat bottom common crossing. It's not perfect, but far better than the first attempt and thus usable. A number of minor issue identified with jig which will a rethink on jig assembly. But in general, concept worked. It might be possible to make a multi angle jig if the base is aluminium, say 5~6mm thick. There are several fixed parts on the current jig and all that would be required are a set of spacers with different angles. Food for thought. The completed common crossing is shown below. Switching task to making the 2nd Flat Bottom Shallow Depth turnout. Patrick

Made a common crossing solder jig, just fine tuning it, seperate thread.

Hi. Thank you for your comments and interest. On the flat bottom use first. The 1mm rod is used to keep the rail heads apart by the check gauge amount, 1mm. The aluminium spacers are 1.5mm thick so is below the rail foot and, again, used to keep the rail heads apart. I might try 1mm thick instead if the issues mentioned in my last update are not resolved, You might be able to use it for bullhead but I generally assemble the common crossing on the actual turnout as there is room for chairs on both check and crossing vee rails allowing the wing / check rails to be fitted after the crossing vee has been fitted. Not possible with flat bottom, as I found out on my first prototype (seperate thread), hence this jig. Patrick

Assembled the first sample, a few issues. Common Crossing below. The running edges of the vee are not aligned with the running edges of the wing rails so a bit of modification needed. tried copper strip, 0.5mm, to join but a bit fiddly so will try plain 24 gauge solid core wire. Issue with misalignment show below. Check gauges tight fit between crossing vee and check rails but there is a gap on both side where it meets the wing rail. The solution to increase distance from crossing vee nose to neck from 8.5mm to around 12mmm. calculation based on PWI data indicated it should be 8.5mm when modified for a 1mm check gauge but looks like an empirical approach might be required..! I'll have another go..! Stay tuned. Patrick

Almost completed the 1:8 flat bottom common crossing soldering jig. Just need to add hold down straps to that the rail is held flat and flush for soldering. The bare jig: The aluminium is 1.5mm thick, the rods are 1mm steel. This jig is for OO/EM so the check rail distance is 1mm. The marks above the jig allow a check of the wing/check rails to be made and fine tuned if required. The aluminum is scored with a stanley knife on both side and then placed in a vice and gently bent backward and forwards to give a clean break and cleaned up with a few strokes of a file. With a crossing vee and wing/check rails inserted the jig looks as follows. The black marks are the bearer positions so the thin (1mm copper strip is soldered in place between them. The neck of the common crossing is 8.5mm from the nose of the crossing vee for a FB 1:8 and the nose is 1.6mm from the intercept point of the running edges. Whilst the feet of the rails look close around the crossing vee in fact the gap should be around 0.13mm. A bit of fine tuning may be required around the neck area as the rectangular guide is glued but may need to be lifted and screwed in place to close up the neck gap. Cost is around £3 for two 100m lengths of 1mm steel rod, one sheet of 1.5mm aluminium sheet (100mm square) and a few 1.4mm screws. I will use a 150mm rod for the straight section for future jigs which will need to be longer. Patrick

I am just making a crossing vee jig for flat bottom rail. I need it to pre assemble the common crossing for my Flat Bottom turnout solution (separate thread). Sadly, it is not adjustable, but a fixed size. But I only need 3 jigs; 1:8, 1:10 and 1:12. And they are simple and cheap to make, I'll upload my solution later. Sometimes you have to scratch build because nothing is available, very true of flat bottom, or because even Wayne's excellent products can't satisfy the requirement; for example size of points. I need everything from B6 to D12 on my planned layout in bullhead and B8 to D12 in flat bottom.

Thank you. That is the reason I researched modern, now over 40 years old, track engineering and came up with this solution...! It works for OO & EM but P4 solutions will still have a bit of filing to undertake in the check rail areas to reduce the width of the foot of the rails. Patrick

Hi, Thank for your continued interest and comments. I have the EMGS supplied case hardened steel bullheads jigs for 4~8 and 9~12 and A to D switches. Needed FB jigs for half the track on my planned layout. Mainline FB turnouts and concrete track, branch lines all bullhead. Surprising how little filing is required for a shallow depth FB turnouts which have been around on the prototype for quite a while. Regards, Patrick

Hi thanks for the advice. But no experience of 3d printing or making 3d printing files, so very steep learning curve. The templot jigs are bullhead I believe. I can use the Fast Track jigs straight out of the box and I need my second prototype, with all the design changes, for a show in a few weeks time as well as a 3rd prototype for my test track which is getting an update in May 24. Will starting the second prototype this weekend and hopefully finish by Monday 6th. Patrick

Update - Final cost of 3 jigs from Canada is £235.74. Customs cost £33.35 with £12.90 brokerage charges. Mail option might not have attracted the brokerage charge. Parts for common crossing soldering jig have arrived. I'll make a 1:8 jig first, the rest are similar.

Reflection on Jigs, How to bend flat bottom rail. Next steps. Two of the jigs critical to scratch track building are the crossing vee and the switchblades. Whilst these are available for bullhead, none, as far as I am aware, are available for flat bottom rail. And if making them oneself, neither are there any jigs. Martin Wynne, of Templot fame, has developed and 3D printed such jigs, but I think once again, they are for bullhead rail. in any case I don't own a 3D printer...! The only solution viable solution to the crossing vee jig issue are those made by Fast Tracks although the switchblade part of the jig is obviously of no use for shallow depth switch rails. Moreover, they are single size per jig, unlike 4 sizes per jig like the current bullhead offerings, and quite expensive; both the items and shipping. With a need for 2 x 1:8, 5 x 1:10 and 5 x 1:12, and made up bullhead crossing vees costing £22 (the flat bottom would be similar) the cost is £264 plus shipping, say £12, so £276 total. The cost of 3 jigs and shipping from Canada is £176 including shipping. Add in 20% VAT and possible 10% customs and the cost rises to £229. So, have bitten the bullet and ordered. I did notice when browsing that the Fast Track Jigs come in various styles. I ordered one #12 Point Form Filing Jig and a #8 and #10 Crossing Point Form Filing Jig. The crossing point form filing jigs are the same as the point form filing jig but with an additional angle for making the sharper vees for double crossovers. It increased the overall bill by £3. So the 1:8 has an additional 1:4 crossing vee slot, whilst the 1:10 has an additional 1:5 crossing vee slot. Whilst these ratios do not match those required for a UK double crossing, they might be useful for other purposes. Somebody did suggest on an american forum just buying the 1:12 as then you can make any angle you want down to 1:4 simply by filling in with solder. See why their trains don't go very fast..!! The solution for the switchblades might be simpler, I think the bullhead switchblade jig can be used, at least for part of the process. One of the issues I had when bending flat bottom rail to make wing/check rails is that is distorts the rail so one leg of the wing/check rail is raised and may be twisted. This means the rail does not sit flat and the railhead is misaligned. The solution is to file a v slot into the foot of the rail just up to the web, maybe slightly less, on the side where the bend is to be made inwards. The rail can then be bent with minimal distortion. Image on the left with the 'nick' and on the right without. Notice the rail has lifted and twisted when the other half of the wing/check rail is held flat. Hopefully, I am not teaching people to suck eggs on bending rail..! Whilst I await the jigs from Canada I will make a common crossing assembly jig. I only have 3 sizes, so not complicated. Patrick

Diverging Switch Rail, Closure rail and Check Rails - Assembly Complete The diverging closure rail and switch rail have been fitted as well as the two check rails. Note the two stage taper on the check rails. Overall view. Alongside a recently complet bullhead B9 crossover. Note the thicker bearers and longer wing/check rails. A few modifications to assembly, for scratch building, required: Assemble the common crossing separately in a jig soldering the crossing vee and wing/check rails together using thin copper strip place to avoid the bearers. A jig rather like that sold by the EMGS will need to be manufactured. Soldered at 34/35 (the neck), 35/36 the crossing nose and 38/39 the check rails. This still allows baseplates to be fitted but provides the alignment accuracy required before assembly. Curve the diverging check rail to match the diverging stock rail. Use regular pandrol baseplates at bearers 15~18 and use 0.4mm thick pads to mount the C&L baseplate's onto. Use pandrol baseplates for the check rail area and use and modified code 83 rail upside down, one side made flush with the web, the other side with the head removed leaving just the foot (now at the top) as the check rail edge. Glued into a ABS plastic holder the, the prototype ones are quite substantial, the assembly can then be secured using MEK. Whilst a test bogie has run through freely aside from a small issue with the common crossing on the diverging route, this first attempt will not be used on any layout, the second version will be. I will be using British Finescale Tie Bars, Wayne kindly sent me some, and, given the more fragile nature of the code 60 rail, will be fitting 2 (as per the prototype), the one nearest the toe driven. Was it worth it, yes. Because it saved a lot of filing and I discovered that very few new additional baseplate types are required, possibly just 2; the shallow depth slider baseplate and the shallow depth rail pandrol baseplate. And that means scratch building modern turnouts can become a reality. The plethora of chairs required for bullhead turnout are simply not required for a flat bottom turnout. Actually, having undertaken the Normal Solomon track building course, it appear, in practice, not many are really required for bullhead scratch building either..!!!! Any constructive comments most welcome. Thanks for the feedback and reactions thus far. Patrick

Common Crossing, Straight Closure and Straight Switch Rail Fitted. Well a few lesson learnt around the common crossing area, not as simple as bullhead but have solutions going forward. Discovered th etip of the crossing vee was misaligned after fitting, have solution for that as well for this example. Unlike for bullhead, the diverging stock rail must be fitted and secured before the switch rail is fitted, I gauged off the wing rails then followed gauged off the diverging closure rail on the template, it worked. Usual electrical isolation at the wing rail. I tapered the heel end of the straight closure rail to match the width of the switch rail, possibly should have tapered the foot as well. The original slide chairs have 0.5mm thick slide plates fitted on top to raise the height for the code 60 rail. I know, they are white, i couldn't find any 0.5 x 2.5mm strip in black. And they do not fit using butanone, slow zap was used. The code 60 rail undercuts the code 83 rail at the toe as can be seen. With a tie bar fitted the blade will fit snugly under the head of the stock rail. So, a few errors along the way but a few months research and design work and the concept has been proven. Bespoke shallow depth slide chair baseplate's and transition area baseplates could easily be 3d printed, ditto some items around the common crossing. In fact, all that is required are maybe 3 types of baseplates to add to the PECO pandrol baseplate: Shallow Depth Slide Baseplate Shallow Depth Pandrol Baseplate for the fixed/transition area. Combined Stock and Check Rail baseplate (using check rail as per the prototype made from flat bottom rail) Now to finish the other side, add the check rails, wire up, strengthen and correct in places. I will modify the design in a couple of places and manufacture another before making up a test board with concrete track to test the turnout with a range of locos. Not sure, but I think I might be the first to have done this..! Patrick

Straight Switch Blade Once again, no jigs, all by hand and eye..! The first of two shallow depth switch blades made from code 60 rail. The side opposite the running face has the foot and head filed back to taper over the required 46mm of planing length. The head of the rail on the running face is filed back to taper over 46mm. Finally, the top of the rail head is filed back to form a vertical taper some 23mm long. The code 60 rail (should) fit snugly inside the web of the flat bottom rail as can be seen below, Difficult to hold the two rail together in one's fingers whilst trying to get a macro shot..! Hopefully, the concept is clear. Once the ordered parts arrive, I'll test fit this before I make another. Might need fine tuning. I may attempt to mill (using a pillar drill with a compound table) another one. The hand made one took an hour. Milling one would take minutes provide the rail can be held firmly enough. Patrick

Common Crossing Manufactured the 2 wing/check rails with the usual bends as we have with bullhead but with the inner faces of the check rails tapered as per the prototype. Positioned the crossing vee with 4 pandrol baseplates where the vee is clear of the check rails and a cut down slide baseplate on the inside of the vee. The wing/check rail are shown in place but have yet to be secured. I am waiting for a some additional parts which will allow me to set the distance between the vee and check rails at 1mm. I will be using slide baseplates to hold the check rails in position and proved support for both vee and check rails. The wing rails will be held in place with pandrol baseplates, obviously cosmetic only at the neck. The taper on the check rails can bee seen on the final image. Once the parts arrive in the next day or so I can finish the common crossing and the rest of the turnout is relatively straightforward, aside form the switch blade profiling which I will start now whilst there is a break in assembly. Patrick

Crossing Vee, First Attempt for Flat Bottom Rail There being no suitable filing jigs for flat bottom rail, the crossing Vs were manufactured by hand using the Gauge O Guild method (https://www.gaugeoguild.com/manual/02_2_6_Pointwork.pdf) as a guide. I bent the last 6mm of rail and more or less followed the guide. I filed a small recess in the point rail for the splice rail to 'slot' into. A few pictures before, during and after assembly. The foot of the flat bottom rails on the running edges near the crossings nose did need to be trimmed back so that the wing and check rails have the required 1mm clearance. I will trim the vee ends to place them in the middle of two sleepers with the nose of the crossing vee correctly placed. Hand building the crossing vee is not ideal and milling the blades would be a better option, much faster and more accurate. The solder jig needs a slight modification, the clamps need to be seperate. On to the wing and check rails and once I have manufactured them I can work out how I am going to secure the vee and wing/check rails given my limited baseplate options...!

I came across and interesting archived thread converining turnout tools. What attracted my attention was the crossing vee soldering jig on the first page. I decided to extend the concept to cover both LH and RH cross vees and also allow for bullhead and flat bottom. The overall cost for my 'delux' version, ordinary machine screws could have been used to reduce cost, was £20. The images below show a 1:9 crossing vee on the bullhead side. The final images show how flat bottom rail is catered for and the jig on its own. If there is any interest I will upload a note on the design and construction as a pdf. Patrick

While Waiting for the Butanone.... One thing needed for this and future turnout projects is a crossing vee soldering jig. I did see one on an older RM Web thread but thought I would upgrade it a little and give it the ability to handle both bullhead and flat bottom rail. The 2mm holes were a bit small for hand tapping so i used a spiral point tap with a tap follower mounted in a pillar drill. Jig now ready to solder crossing V. No flat bottom filing jig so it will be by 'eye'; perhaps another project for the future. First images with a bullhead 1:9. And with flat bottom track (not yet filed) and finally, the jig on its own. Cost about £20 to make. If you use plain machine screws it would be cheaper. Butanone arrived yesterday, new bottle style so will need to make a new anti knock over holder..! Or just decant into the old bottle. Patrick

Having just sold an upgraded original HST to an Australian customer, the postage was pretty steep; £30..! A pack of 48 fishplates is £6.00 but the pack would not be letter size unless some kind soul took them off the sprues for you and placed them in a little plastic bag to mail in a standard envelope. Postage is around £2.50 from UK to Australia and then there is the cost of shipping from the society to the kind soul in the UK, overall cost around £12 for one pack, £18 for two or £30 for 4.

Update - Stock Rail Fitted, Shallow Depth Switch Rail assessment. I have laid out the bearers and, with the remaining butanone, fitted the flat bottom straight stock rail. I used a length of 15mm x 2mm of aluminium bar to ensure alignment of the straight side of the turnout. A 10mm width length of double sided tape hold the bearers in position. PECO plain baseplates and slide base plates are fitted to straight stock rail aside from 4 of the 8 bearers which will hold the check rail. The moment of truth, has the theory been correct... Yes..! The shallow depth switch rail represented by PECO Code 60 flat bottom rail is 0.5mm lower when resting on the slide chairs. The PECO Pandrol baseplates are too wide for Code 60 rail but the C&L base plates provided with C&L concrete bearers are narrower and a good fit and also raise the code 60 rail by around 0.5mm. For this first attempt, the C&L baseplates will sit on top of the 4 PECO slide plates at positions 15~18. The slide plates at positions 5~14 will have new more representative slide plates, 0.5mm thick, sitting on top of the existing slide plates; in the prototype they look like plain slabs of metal - bit plasticard will do. The images below show the two rails side by side and the area where the transition from code 60 to code 83 takes place. The outer face of the closure rail heads (code 83) will be tapered to match the width of the code 60 rail. For most of the length of the code 60 rail it is planed so it will not look too odd. Good progress so far but a few observations and tips. The PECO plastic does require a bit if holding in place once the solvent is applied and use a fin pair of tweezer to move base plates into position. The PECO pandrol baseplates are very fragile, taper the foot of the rail slightly to aid fitting. The C&L baseplate are very fiddly to fit, once again, taper the rail. The next steps will be making the crossing CV, check and wing rails. In addition, some modifications are required to existing 3 point and roller gauges, the code 83 rail head is slightly thicker than code 75, as well as the manufacture of bespoke roller gauges for the switch rail area, one side will be code 60, the other code 83. Patrick

Another item you can use are Exactoscale scale fishplates. I found everything else like the legacy rail joiners or PECO insulated joiners too big. The ExactoScale fishplates have an insulating section in the middle. Simply slide over the web of both rails. They look like this (below) in situ. This is a B9 crossover, the first I have every scratch built, which I have just completed for my test track and is awaiting painting. The shiny stuff is MEK/Butanone. You may need to secure one end in place with a tiny spot of glue. I now use these fishplates on the British Finescale turnouts. Regards, Patrick

Update - Construction Commenced Final Template generated and bearers cut to size. First 4 bearers on the left are PECO IL-111 and the remaining 41 bearers are PECO IL-114. Both are around 1.25mm thick IL-111 are 34mm long and 3.4mm wide whilst IL-114 are 3.9mm wide and a maximum of 88mm long. The longest timber for the this B8VS is around 68mm, it will not be part of a crossover on the test layout. The red rectangles between the rails are spacer or distance blocks. Next steps will be to lay the bearers on the template and then fix the straight stockrail. Unlike building a bullhead turnout, all chair plates for the stock rail will be fitted including slide plates. One small roadblock on progress, my bottle of Butanone has evaporated as the cap had not been secured last October. Just waiting for a resupply from C&L. I may have just enough for the straight stock rail. Patrick

Update Study / Workshop complete and organising all but complete. Did consider using Templot to make the template but too many things to adjust, move and hide so used the drawing tools in MS Word. Have been using it for years and it is amazing what you can do with a little thought. I drew sections 5 sleepers wide at 5 times scale for accuracy and then reduced to size and linked them together. Bearer spacing (as they are called for Flat Bottom turnouts) is 710mm for the prototype with a width of 290mm, so 9.32mm apart and 3.8mm wide (same as PECO timbers). The turnout is some 400mm in length and so I saved as a Pdf and used poster printing option(available in the pdf viewer) to print out on an A4 laser printer. Amazingly it is quite accurate with the distance between tracks of just over 18mm. The template is just a guide for bearer positioning and which baseplates to use. All the data, vast amounts of it, came from the latest PWI manuals. The common crossing dimensions have been adjusted for a 1mm flangeway. The first 4 bearers are plain with V baseplates followed by stock rail in full height rail and shallow height switch rails. Transition from shallow to full height rail occurs between the orange and blue sleeper. Not a lot of filing required, just the crossing V and the switch rail planing. I'll begin assembly with laying the bearers and fitting the straight stock rail in a few days time. Patrick

Yep, I have no control..! However, i am working on a B8 flat bottom vertical shallow depth turnout design. We have had the prototype for 40 + years..! Separate thread.