andyman7

It isn't the old Dublo / Wrenn body at all; the roof is a separate part whereas the Dublo body moulding is all one piece; the steps under the doors are different, and the ends are also better detailed.  I've got a Dapol one (and a Wrenn, and a Dublo for that matter!), and it runs fine on my Peco Code 75 permanent way.  I'd suggest as others have that you check the back to back measurement, unless Dapol have changed their wheels since I bought mine - I bought mine soon after they were first released.

Thanks for the correction, I didn't know the Dapol one was different. I still like the the Wrenn/HD one though 

The body moulding is the old Hornby Dublo 'super detail' one later made by Wrenn. Wrenn examples made after 1972 run on pintpoint axles. Although the Wrenn/HD underframe is not as detailed, it is made of metal and it does run properly. Unlike some other Wrenn models the Fruit D can still be bought at modest cost through the usual internet trading channels.

The "Rollason Rolla-Controla" I've never heard of, but it sounds utterly marvellous- if you have one available for disposal, let me know!

 

K

There was a whole thread on the Rolla-controla (possibly in the old forum). The search continues for a surviving example....

I felt the magazine started to go downhill when certain aspects of production changes in 1990. I didn't like the new headline font introduced in Jan 90, and definitely didn't like the new body font brought in a few years later. There was also a bit of a trend for spot colour which made some articles very hard to read - there was one early-90s Plan Of The Month (a fictional Norfolk station I think) with the plan printed entirely in yellow ink!

Personally I think RM may have started to go downhill when they stopped featuring photographs of men in cardigans smoking pipes on the front cover

My era for 'new' RMs was the 1980s, plus some late 70s back issues acquired at jumble sales. Already mentioned are Monty Wells' Diesel mods, plus that legendary April Fool Underground layout under the floorboards. There was an issue in 1982 that featured the 'largest private layout in 00', a huge setup in a large outbuilding. I was always fascinated by the modern image layouts, there was one about 1978 that had Liliput/Trix 81s, Transpennine units and Westerns in addition to the more familiar Hornby/Triang, Airfix and Palitoy offerings that looked incredibly exotic to me, and an article in 1977 that involved using sawn off sections of a pencil to make working destination blinds in a Triang DMU. Allan Downes' structure modelling set a bar few of us could hope to achieve too.

I remember in those pre-internet days correspondence that would take place over several months in the letters page - including a letter in the July 1980 issue that set off several months of discussion on class 03s, as well as the inevitable discussions about whether 40 106 had ever received blue livery.

I remember that Monty Wells 'improved' Hornby class 37 included bogie sideframes from the Kitmaster Deltic - OK if you were grown up and had a reasonable spares box but as an 11 year old the chances of finding a set were similar to meeting Lord Lucan in Bejam. Ironically, 35 odd years later it is of course much easier to find them, but not nearly so necessary as one no longer has to rely on the old Triang/Hornby offering if you want a 37.....    

I can confirm that Peco set track curved points sold today and Hornby curved points are exactly the same. I swapped a Hornby curved point for a Peco one on a train set I made for my cousins' kids a year or two ago.

 

Beware however that older Peco points (not from this century I don't think) have a different geometry. Basically if you're buying new don't worry about it, they are completely interchangeable.

The older Peco Setrack curved points were indeed of a different geometry - they were based on 1st radius curves.

Am I mistaken or does the latest Mk2A BFK http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/51288/39-410A-Bachmann-BR-Mk2A-BFK-Brake-First-Corridor-Coach-W17069 still have the lower white band too high, i.e. above the the door bangers? The new TSOs look right.

From the photo it seems the roof vents haven't been corrected either. On the BFK, they should be in a single line over the compartments. Triang got it right in 1968....

One thing I remember from the 70s when I was a lad was that old books and magazines on model railways would bemoan the fact that proprietary OO systems were incompatible. I couldn't quite understand this because as far as I could see you could run Hornby, Wrenn, Lima, Mainline and Airfix together. The latter did have narrow couplings you needed to change but that was it. Wrenn boxes mentioned that they had Triang couplings but they looked like Hornby ones to me....

Of course now it all makes sense, the Triang system survived alone into the 1970s but with the Hornby name, and had adopted the latter's 2 rail wheel and rail standards so creating in effect a British RTR OO template, but as a ten year old it was a bit confusing

Can't remember seeing any trix though. Did they have lower sales than their competitors perhaps?

Well I don't have production figures to hand but based on over 30 years of toy fairs etc it is very clear that Trix lags quite a bit behind Dublo and a long way behind Triang in terms of quantities out there so it was clearly never sold in anything like the quantities of the big 2.

I've got there first...D3052 was withdrawn in Dec 1973 in black, whilst it was 08105 that survived in black and got a TOPS number, not being withdrawn until spring 1975. 

In terms of that initial black livery - the 08s cannot have carried it for very long can they? I'll happily be corrected but, judging by photos the all-over green livery must have started to kick in by 1958ish? That means the timeframe for the black must be quite limited?

 

I must admit it does look so tempting though...

One at Willesden was black until withdrawal in the mid-70s - it even got TOPS numbers... 

Indeed Phil, the first six 50s out of refurbishment at The Plant were shod in plain blue (19 was another) and the only way to do one of these is strip/repaint a later liveried model. A bodyshell of which I have ready stripped awaiting paint.

 

C6T.

Number 22 Anson too - I remember her hauling my first ever train journey down the SR Exeter road

The British Trix (and later British Liliput) range was always smaller than that of competitors and after around 1970 was produced at pretty much cottage industry levels so the market is more specialised than for Hornby Dublo or Triang. I do have a few items, my favourite being the Transpennine unit you have pictured, in that first, illustrated box. I also have the A4 in silver grey, and an E3001. In addition, I have two of the grain wagons produced by Trix for Triang in the Triang boxes - a very rare and unusual pair of items.

I've been up to the ears in grandchildren over half term - so I've only come upon this thread today (though I saw the story in the papers).

 

My reference to our grandchildren - ages 15 down to 8, mostly boys - is relevant because not one has shown any noticably sustained attraction to Hornby products (including Scalextrics - I wonder what proportion of Hornby's business is trains?). What depressed me is that I spent a lot of time trying unsuccessfully to lure the kids away from screens.

 

I cannot honestly see where the likes of Hornby can respond to a 'must have' wish list for an under 30-year-old cohort.

 

dh

This has come up already in this thread, but I don't think anyone expects Hornby Group's product range to necessarily appeal to all children - but it is important that for those it does appeal to, there is a suitably targeted range of products that can sustain not just an initial purchase, but also follow up sales. My grown up son never got the bug and has other interests, my younger son is absolutely enthralled with planes, trains and buses and has the making of a lifelong enthusiast.

I was looked at as though I was daft when I offered that as a suggestion on a trip to Margate.

So,, looks like a splendid idea then!

My recollection (which could be incorrect) was that Wrenn were an independent company, but financed their purchase of the Hornby-Dublo tooling by issuing shares to Lines Bros, thus becoming a part-owned associate of the Lines Bros group.  In return, they were able to use the "Tri-ang" branding to market the former HD models as "Tri-ang-Wrenn".

 

I believe the approach came from Wrenn, after Lines Bros had closed down the Binns Road factory.

 

I am not sure what proportion of the Wrenn shares was acquired by Lines Bros, but I don't think it was a majority shareholding.

 

Lines Bros presumably disposed of their Wrenn shares at a later date, when the marketing of the former HD models under the "Tri-ang-Wrenn" label came to an end.

 

Lines Bros was later taken over by predatory asset strippers, and the whole group later went bust.  It was acquired by Dunbee Combex Marx who, in turn, went spectacularly belly up.  I think it was at that stage that there was a management buy-out of the former Rovex company (now called simply "Hornby"or "Hornby Hobbies"), but there may have been one or more stages in the saga both before and after that event that I have missed. 

 

In summary, the "Hornby" story really starts with the formation of Rovex Plastics Ltd in 1946 (and their venture into toy trains in 1949).  The history of the original "Hornby" company (Meccano Limited) came to a full stop in 1964.  In the past 50 years, there have been repeated alarums and excursions, changes of ownership, etc. (starting with the 'distress' sale of Meccano Limited to Lines Bros in 1964, whence the acquisition of the old "Hornby" brand name).  The current crisis in the company's affairs is only the latest in a whole series of such incidents over the years. 

The Wrenn Wikipedia entry sums up that part of the story, but Lines Bros did not close the Binns Road factory or Meccano - they just ceased production of the trains. Indeed, iconic though it is, the factory carried on for another 15 years, suffering increasingly from outdated fabric, equipment and industrial relations and shored up by various government loans. It passed to Airfix in 1971 when they bought out Meccano's UK operation from the receivers of Lines Brothers and was finally closed by Airfix in November 1979. Airfix collapsed in May 1981, and the losses incurred by Binns Road contributed to their downfall. Incidentally then (as appears now) the plastic kits actually made money, it was other parts of the business that were the problem.

Looking at the press stories one might think that Hornby is a company that has traded for over 100 years and has suddenly hit hard times but the story of the British toy and hobby business is much more turbulent than that and this would appear to be simply the latest chapter.  

I have also noticed that 40 year old Airfix kits seem to be sitting on the shelves in dozens when the market for them is in serious decline. 

.

Not in any model shops I've been in recently, they're sitting in post-2013 type 16 red boxes, alongside a lot of new tool kits. Other new tool kits have sold out very quickly. I'm aware Sasquatch was referring to the age of the mould, not the age of the box, but my point is it's all newish stock and not old stuff that's been sitting there for years.

Indeed - for many years Airfix traded on a legendary name but an increasingly outdated tooling bank of models but under Hornby's ownership they have invested heavily and their key models (Spitfires, Red Arrows, Lancaster etc) are all now top rate modern tooling - and it sells, see Trains 4U's post.

Across their brands Hornby have a lot of good models - it is how they are utilising them that is the problem.

"All look in unable condition."

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/oo-ho-n-Gauge-Job-Lot-Of-Precision-Model-Airbrush-Paint-Pots-Etc/141902142300?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20140221143405%26meid%3Dc3e040c223cb421db5c41d20236c9c92%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D24%26sd%3D251894049046

 

Not exactly the best endorsement!

 

Geoff Endacott

Good luck in taking it to the post office too as all of that stuff is now illegal to send via Royal Mail...

My 7 year old loves his model railway trains....

And my two don't

 

We cannot look at ourselves and they everything is alright - there will be plenty of families where there are no trains past Thomas and more and more of them as each year passes.

 

We have to be realistic, we're a dying breed.

The point I was trying to make was that it is not true that 'kids aren't interested in trains anymore' Many kids aren't but some kids are, and a properly focused business can serve this market. Hornby have a unique access to this market, Bachmann, Dapol, DJM etc can all serve the keen modeller and collector but Hornby has the opportunity to serve that market, and also get some economy of scale by also selling train sets and accessories.

The business isn't all bad but it has been terribly unfocused at having the right products in the right boxes at the right prices for the right markets. A typical example is the 'Javelin', a budget priced version of the Southeastern Highspeed train that is perfect for my son - it looks good and runs well and is suitable for his age and capability. The original trainset sold out a few years back leaving a glut of centre coaches with nothing to attach to. Last year another batch of the sets were made, but the extra coaches are now out of stock, so the opportunity to extend the set is compromised. 

Not even Bernard Cribbins could turn this tide when it comes to getting youngsters interested in model railways.

My 7 year old loves his model railway trains....

Astonishingly, there's one item of the original Binns Road factory clearance stock which they still haven't sold out of: http://www.ehattons.com/stocklist/1000440/1000588/1000638/0/Hornby_Dublo_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Track_Points/prodlist.aspx

You forgot these:

http://www.ehattons.com/34048/Hornby_Dublo_2910_Securing_Plates_for_2_Rail_Track/StockDetail.aspx

I wonder what items in the Hornby 2016 range would still be hanging around in 2065?

I wonder if Hornby will now put the brakes on with new loco being released until they over comes their finance issues.

Ideally, they will release items for which there is demand and which will sell. 

OTOH, we might get another email announcing an addition to "Last Chance To Buy":

 

R0001 Hornby Hobbies: ONLY £12.25 Million!  (Was £17.45 Million)   Last one in stock!

OTOH, we might get another email announcing an addition to "Last Chance To Buy":

 

R0001 Hornby Hobbies: ONLY £12.25 Million!  (Was £17.45 Million)   Last one in stock!

Gallows humour at it's best

Let's suppose that Hornby is broken up (and of course it's by no means clear that this will happen). 

 

There are two things of interest to most of us here - the tooling and the brand itself.

 

The history of model railways in the UK is a complicated one of brands and tooling changing hands, and there's no reason in principle that the two have to go together.

 

Clearly there are various possible scenarios.

 

Probably the most disturbing for most of us here would be for the name to be split from the tooling, and the name used to sell something cheap and nasty (yes worse than the current train-set 0-4-0 - think of the battery powered cheap plastic train and a loop of track type things that make an appearance at Christmas each year). This could probably generate significant sales from people who don't know any better while the name gradually becomes (irretrievably?) tarnished.

Indeed - but we must recall that 'Hornby' was split from it's tooling in 1965 when Lines Brothers dropped the whole Hornby-Dublo range in favour of it's Triang models having acquired Meccano the previous year. If you want Hornby Dublo in 2016, a fair few of the Dapol wagons (made in Wales, not a million miles from the old Meccano factory in Liverpool) use the body tools from the former Hornby Dublo super detail wagon range.

Let us not forget that the original Meccano company, owner of the Hornby brand was bought out in 1964 by Lines Brothers; in 1971 when Lines Brothers collapsed it was bought out by Dunbee-Combex-Marx; in 1981 when the latter collapsed it was the subject of a management buy out. As regards Airfix, the original Airfix group collapsed in 1981, it was sold to US conglomerate General Mills, who pulled out of the business in 1985 when Humbrol took over; after several changes of ownership, that group collapsed and was bought by Hornby in 2006. Corgi was a product of the Mettoy Group which collapsed in 1984, and was the subject of a management buyout, ownership for a period by Mattel and then by venture capitalists before being sold to Hornby a few years ago.

What I am saying is that the brands and the products have proved remarkably resilient through numerous recessions and parent company failures. Hopefully Hornby plc will make it through their current woes but I am optimistic that the brand and the models will survive come what may.