davefreight

The WTT does not support the theory that electric hauled trains first arrived at Piccadilly and were then shunted back to Mayfield. What it clearly shows is that electric hauled services both arrived and departed directly from Mayfield. Given the lack of any evidence of wiring under the canopy the most sensible conclusion is that the southern most platform road, outside the canopy, was fully wired for arrivals while some, or all, of the other platform ends outside the train shed were also electrified.

Have updated the Working Timetable info with a list of the electric hauled arrivals at Mayfield. They were nicely spaced out consistent with having had just one track fully wired to handle inbound services.

I thought I'd consult the mandatory working timetable for May 1976 which tells us that the following parcels services were booked to depart from Manchester Mayfield on a weekday. 4026 00.53 MX to Redhill Electric haulage 4F07 02.04 MX to Wavertree PCD DPU 3K22 04.00 MX to Crewe Electric haulage (this train originated at Manchester Piccadilly leaving at 03.50 and arriving Mayfield at 03.55 at attach) 4J08 04.25 MX to Bolton DPU 4H17 06.00 to Buxton DMU 4H02 09.23 to Buxton DMU 4K14 18.40 SO to Crewe Electric haulage 4010 20.26 SX to Bricklayers Arms Electric haulage 4K18 20.34 SX to Crewe Electric haulage 4E06 21.06 SX to Bradford Diesel haulage 3M12 21.24 SX to Nottingham Diesel haulage 4D08 21.11 SX to Chester DPU 4E02 23.08 SX to Doncaster Diesel haulage 4G02 21.49 SX to Curzon Street Electric haulage 3A66 22.47 SX to Euston Electric haulage 4M16 23.23 SX to Luton FSX/Cricklewood FO Arrivals followed a broadly similar pattern with a mix of electric and diesel haulage plus the occasional DPU, electric hauled parcels trains arriving at: 03.39 MX from Stafford 04.20 MX from Hayes 07.26 from Stoke-on-Trent 10.48 MX from Redhill 12.09 MX from Rugby 20.35 SO/22.04 SX from Crewe South Yard Back then it really was an electrified railway to the fullest extent possible. Hope this helps answer your query Gordon.

See Rail Express April 2014 for some more details on WHL freight. Dave

The fleet of ICI bogie caustic soda tanks was initially built to work from the companies Castner-Kellner works in Runcorn to the Courtaulds plant at Flint, although as the fleet grew they spread their wings a little. The Catalyst Museum in Widnes hold the ICI General Chemical Division paper archive which contains more details. Davefreight

The 'Thames Board' OTA's retained the blue livery long after they were released into general timber traffic although of course over time it gradually faded. However, it didn't fade to green. The pale green livery was a new colour scheme applied to other OTA's, if memory serves, after the end of Speedlink when for a while only the traffic to Shotton remained on rail. That green livery was I believe associated in some way with that flow but on several visits to Dee Marsh yard in the early 1990's one could find every type and every livery of OTA known to man heading for Shotton Paper. Davefreight

They are Railease or more exactly Standard Wagon hoppers numbered in the SRW 185xx series and they are indeed in the sand traffic from Redhill to Warrington. In October 1985 twenty three of them were hired by BR for various flows with about eight being used to supplement the British Industrial Sand PAA/PGA hoppers on that working.

VAA's and VBA's commonly used in this flow in addition to VGA's, some with and some without the special livery. From memory destinations included Blackburn and Warrington Dallam.

Polybulks worked to the coal depot at Aylesbury with smokeless fuel from Hucklehoven until the mid 1980's although not that often. Only on one occasion did I find one in the CCD but it was a very awkward spot to get really good photos. The discharge pit at the CCD was also used to unload aggregate - limestone from the Peak in HTV's and granite from Mountsorrel in Redland PGA's when I used to visit the place. The wine traffic was for bottling by Saccone & Speed. Both Ermefer and Armstrong bogie tanks were regular visitors while one fine day that rarest of rare beasts, a four-wheel wine tank turned up.

Thanks for the extra info David B.

Martin Unfortunately I cannot help with the diameter of the tank, the only other details I can find for the Baby Nitrics tell me they were 46 tonne glw, 100 psi pressure discharge with a carrying capacity of 32.9 tonnes, gross capacity 33.5 hectolitres. When they were cobbled together the barrels appear to have gained additional lagging, hence the repositioning of the ladder to the end. Presumably because nitric has a relatively low boiling point the aim would be to transport it without much change in its temperature, although this is just guesswork on my part. David R

Martin Thank you for your reply and I hope that the additional information I have provided on the 'Baby Nitrics' is of use. As you say not all the info in books is 100% correct and there are some errors in my PO Wagons book but if I had been unsure of the antecedents of TRL 51948 then I would have indicated that in the caption. I must still take issue with you about there being a number series TRL 51431-49, since referring to them in this way might suggest that they were a coherent single block of number allocated to one particular wagon design when, as I have already explained, they were not. David Ratcliffe

Hi everybody Thought I might just say a word now that this thread has been brought to my attention. The details provided in my IA book on PO Wagons regarding TRL 51948 are correct. I did not 'suggest' that the wagon was built from the chassis of HCN tank TRL 51440 and the barrel of ex-glycol tank TRL 51224, this is a statement of fact. The ancestry of this small fleet of six wagons is known in every detail. All had former glycol tank barrels married to either ex HCN underframes or, in the case of 51953, to a former chlorine tank underframe. The details pertaining to these vehicles were given to me back in 1983 by UKF's Transport Manager whilst we were chatting over a cup of coffee in his office at Ince & Elton. As I have already explained in my book UKF found themselves in need of a small fleet of nitric acid tanks that would be able to negotiate the restricted clearance at the unloading siding inside Salwick. The wagons needed to have stainless steel barrels and be air-braked, so that they could operate via the Speedlink network, hence the fitting of suitable barrels from redundant vacuum braked glycol tanks to spare air-braked underframes. Furthermore, there was no wagon series TRL 51431-49 which is erroneously quote in an earlier posting in this thread. The wagons allocated the TOPS numbers TRL 51431-34 are simply the last four of a batch of 25 chlorine tanks built by Chas Roberts for ICI in 1965. These four were amongst several to be renumbered in the TRL 511xx series after conversion to sulphuric acid tanks and presumably do not feature in the wagon spotter number books on their TRL514xx numbers. Wagons numbered TRL 51435-49 comprised a batch of 15 HCN tanks built that same year, also by Chas Roberts, also for ICI. As stated in the aforementioned caption, TRL 51440 was a HCN tank - when I go into print I do not make stuff up. As to the other numbers quoted in the posting dated October 26; that is 410-414, and then TRL 51410 and 51411, perhaps I can clear that up as well. Let us get TRL 51410 and TRL 51411 out of the way first: these are the first two chlorine tanks in the batch of 25 built for ICI in 1965 which I mention above. When built this batch were vacuum braked and numbered A410 to A434 becoming TRL 51410-34 on TOPS. In later years they were air-braked, some then becoming sulphuric acid tanks whilst the others remained in chlorine traffic later for BP Chemicals and then Hays. None of the wagons from this batch donated anything to the 'Baby Nitrics'. As to the numbers 410-414 which are also mentioned, well these could refer to all manner of vehicles. However, in the context of this discussion it is probably worth noting that these were amongst the ICI fleet numbers carried by the batch of HCN tanks that subsequently became TRL 51435-49 on TOPS. Oh, and by the way, the chlorine tank underframe reused for TRL 51953 came from TRL 51678. As you will probably gather I am a little irritated by this thread and would just wish that members not post a bunch of mistaken and misleading information. David Ratcliffe

Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'll do a bit of digging into the cement works. David R

Loved the photos of the Port Sunlight trip, have you any more! Some info : Pool 3713 Marchon Whitehaven to Port Sunlight. Chemicals. Various dates 1975 and 1976 B 885611/13/15/18/24/27/36/41/57/58/89/708 all coded CGP Sodium tripolyphosphate from Albright & Wilson, Corkickle to Lever Bros., Port Sunlight and Lever Bros., Warrington Bank Quay On May 17, 1976 pool breakdown showed eight wagons loaded en route to Port Sunlight with one loaded at Warrington and the rest empty at Corkickle. As far as I know STPP was the only traffic for these air-assisted grain although they may have been tested in other traffics. All were stored oou by Feb. 1981. Pool 3097 Marchon Whitehaven to various. Chemicals. Various dates 1975-1981. B 873001/5/6/16/19/23/196/375/78/81/82/86/89/96/99/404/5/7/14/18/19/720/21/29/31/36/41/42/44/46/48/53/55-57/59-61/63/66/67 all 41 coded CQV Sodium tripolyphosphate from Albright & Wilson, Corkickle to Lever Bros., Port Sunlight and Lever Bros., Warrington Bank Quay. These wagons were also occasionally used to supply Procter & Gamble at West Thurrock although that flow was largely carried in Covhops until being taken over by the bogie powder wagons CL 84701 and PR 11300-12 in 1972. At the start of 1975 130 of the 131 Prestwins were still allocated to traffic pools (all bar the prototype) with 41 in alumina traffic from Burntisland; 34 in lime traffic from Hindlow; 37 in STPP from Corkickle; and 18 with sand from Congleton. By Feb 1981 only 79 still in traffic - 10 in alumina from Burntisland; 28 in Lime from Hindlow; 41 STPP from Corkickle. Would be interested if anybody could identify the customer in Essex which an earlier poster mentioned as receiving alumina from Burntisland as the only customers I have are BTP, Grimsby; B Aluminum, Warrington (this had ceased prior to 1975); and Newport Lliswerry. If modelling worth remembering that these vehicles often retained their old branding after transfer to a different working - for instance several that had previously been in soda ash from Northwich were still so lettered some years after being moved to the STPP flow. In earlier years they were used for several other loads - my list of commodities carried by the Prestwins (some only trials) and not necessarily exhaustive: Basic slag, Calcined hydrate of alumina, China clay, Flour, Fullers earth, Ground limestone, Ground silica, Polymer powders, Pyrophosphates, Salt, Soda ash, sodium perborate, Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Starch, Slate powder. David R

As you say Brian, one of the more unexpected destinations. My records show deliveries of three or four sheeted Highfits at a time, although I do not have enough material to be able to determine the frequency, so they might have been a months supply. Look out for the formations book in about twelve months. David R

Brian The ball clay traffic to Abenbury went to Molar Products which, as the name suggests, produced dental porcelain. They also had a rail connected factory at Colchester which received similar loads. A chapter devoted to inter-regional china clay traffic may well appear in my next effort for Ian Allan, which is due to be a look at freight train formations drawing on my very large collection of train lists. David R

My own research suggests that most of the alumina to Fort William went in Covhops, at first in the LNER fleet of modified wooden bodied wagons and their purpose built fleet, CZO on TOPS, and then in BR Covhops with some of the LNER steel covhops still in traffic working with them. After the Ballachulish branch closed alumina for the Kinlochleven smelter was railed to FW and roaded from there and, as this needed to be transferred into road vehicles, was still carried in the Presflos that had worked to Ballachulish. Initially the alumina came from Burntisland, later Invergordon and later still North Blyth. The unfitted Alcan PAO wagons mentioned somewhere in this thread did not serve FW. Craig - thanks for the pic at Ballachulish - great find. Hope of some use. David R