YesTor

On 10/07/2020 at 00:47, mdvle said:

Coal? Perhaps.

 

The others?  Random colours and shapes with no meaning.

 

Depot plaques - great idea, but not really part of the livery as such.

An interesting viewpoint.  Still, my recollection of the story is that Roundel were asked to come up with a cohesive image for the BR Railfreight sector.  The depot plaques were all designed at the same time specifically to be applied to the triple-grey liveried locos.  To my eye these tie-in amazingly well with the bodyside symbols and in particular the aforementioned Coal sector logo.  To be fair, if that isn't "part of the livery", then I'm not sure what is?  It's all part-and-parcel of a consistent brand image:

Branding/graphic design in general is particularly intriguing; and with respect to the symbols, to me the Coal, Petroleum and Construction sectors are pretty self-explanatory - chunks of coal, the wavy lines representing liquid, the cubes represent building blocks.  I'd agree that perhaps the Distribution and General Railfreight are perhaps less immediately obvious, but if we think about it there are lots of iconic logos and branding out there that do not necessarily convey their obvious intention at first glance - think of the ICI logo, Blue Circle Cement, the Olympic flag, Nike, Bird's Eye, Coca-Cola, Cadbury's - in fact there are likely more slightly obtuse-looking logos flying around than self-explanatory ones, yet all of the above are/were highly successful brands/corporate images in their own right.  Whilst I'd agree that an immediately obvious logo is likely preferable for many a designer, it is not always essential in order to create what might in time prove to be regarded as a 'successful', or indeed seductive brand. 

To bring this back on topic, and looking at the EWS branding, I do actually feel that the main logo is a great design, but in it's raw form does it really convey anything at all about railways, and to a layman what does "EWS" on it's own mean?  Egg White & Sausages, perhaps?  Without casting a glance at "English, Welsh & Scottish Railway" on the cabside of any loco, well, it arguably means very little.  But when all is said and done the triple 'Beastie' logo is pretty iconic, or highly memorable at the very least and a superb piece of design:

An interesting subject...

Best

Al

16 hours ago, keefer said:

I don't see how they can say the EWS livery 'failed'?

 

The Trainload sector markings were very clever but you had to know what they meant, otherwise they were all just grey locos with a graphic stuck on the side.

I kind of agree, I can't think of any logical reason to label EWS livery as a 'failure' - it looked incredibly smart when freshly applied, and okay perhaps it hasn't aged well, but then looking at some of the 66s still in red and gold and to be fair I think that any livery on any loco is going to look drab after 20 years without a repaint.  The livery certainly suited freight stock and of course 66s, although IMHO I never really felt that it suited many of the BR types - 58, 60, 37, 59s etc.

All that said, I'm a big fan of Roundel Design's Railfreight scheme.  It was well thought through right from inception - and at a time when dingy old Rail Blue prevailed, the new and exciting triple-grey with its bold and exciting symbols achieved the perfect balance between neutral shades and bright colour, and in perfect proportion to each other.  Okay, the symbols may not have necessarily been immediately obvious to the travelling public, but once you realize what they represent it's pretty obvious?  And the whole concept of depot plaques, with their localised symbols, as has been well-documented, gave reason for depots to take pride in their machines - it was a true breath of fresh air.  Personally, I thought the whole concept of deriving the basic colour schemes and logo styling from military aircraft design was magnificent - it was a bold, new livery back in the mid-eighties, without being gaudy, and just what the tired-looking railway needed at the time. 

Sadly, many of today's liveries seem to simply consist of railway companies competing to see who can produce the most vulgar, visual cacophony of purples, pinks and fluorescent oranges known to mankind, with little consideration for the prototype that the livery is supposedly conceived for, many of which simply seem to end up looking like nothing more than glorified advertising hoardings. 

So yeah, in short, I've no real aversion to the EWS 'image', although given a choice I'd repaint everything back into Roundel's greys any time...

Best

Al

A difficult one, as the Roundel designs were about as good as liveries get and I don't think anything has come anywhere near as effective since, but that's just my viewpoint.

23 hours ago, Eddie R v2.0 said:

I quite often have the cab light on in the front end of the real thing so I would have expected that the front one in the model should be able to be switched on. 

I guess you could always learn to read or drink tea in the dark?  Or maybe a gentle stroll to the rear cab to turn on the light? 

4 hours ago, Kaput said:

 

You don't. Thats the point being made above, the model's PCB is specifically wired so the rear cab light comes on to simulate the guard doing his paperwork or some such. Only Bachmann know why they made it like that instead of fully independant.

So the guard has a light in the rear cab, but there is no light in the front cab for the driver?  So you literally cannot light up the front cab at all, for example when the train is in a station?  If so, that's just weird and a tad useless? 

On 28/06/2020 at 21:43, charliepetty said:

I think the cab light functions don't operate how they should on a real unit, its not the decoder but I think a design error on the circuit board.

I think I'd have to agree in that surely no one would intentionally design the unit in this way?

Is there a fix, ie. can the front light be mapped to a spare function?

thanks

Al

4 hours ago, pauliebanger said:

1. That is correct. No forward cab light, train manager's rear cab light only.

Okay, so I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but how do I switch on the forward cab light please? 

On 22/06/2020 at 22:17, aquilla said:

Now according to the supplied instructions the functions show...

 

f0  as lights..which function correctly. ..

f1 directional lights off end a....correct..

.f2 directional lights off b end...correct....

f3 pass compartment lights... incorrect..operates rear cab light ...

f4 cab lights leading end.. incorrect..operates passenger compartment lights...

f5 door interlock lights... incorrect. .does nothing

f6. .directional light mode day/night.. incorrect..operates door interlock lights.

 

The instructions don't say how the dip switches should be set for dcc..but they are all in the on position.   Is there something wrong here.  Ta for any advice

@pauliebanger  @charliepetty  Sorry to chime in here, but I'm planning on buying a couple of these units and am curious if the lighting functions are going to work properly.  Please kindly correct me if I'm mistaken, but reading the OP from @aquilla above suggests that F3, F4, F5 & F6 do not operate as the instructions indicate?  If this is the case then surely this alone suggests that something isn't quite right?  

Secondly, by looking at what each function F3, F4, F5 & F6 actually performs, as opposed to what the instructions indicate, leaves the questions:

1. There appears to be no function for leading end cab light?
2. There appears to be no control over day/night modes?
3. What is the purpose of F5?

Can someone clarify perhaps?

thank you kindly...

Al

5 hours ago, classy52 said:

I thought we were already paying good money!...

Naturally, any customer's money is "good money", although it is interesting to observe that an HO scale ESU Class 66 with sound averages at €399,00 , which is around £365.00, (and that's with an RRP discount!)

6 hours ago, daz9284 said:

does anyone produce any of the euro 66s in OO?

Hattons have 66033 & 66218 available in Euro Cargo Rail (ex EWS) livery.  Bachmann also did their own version in Euro Cargo Rail (66062) quite some time ago as a limited edition for Model Rail Magazine.  Apart from that there are no other representations of Euro 66s, being either those of UK or EU origin.

cheers
Al

4 hours ago, melmoth said:

As a similarly anecdotal response (because I can't verify all the facts), I'll offer you the example of New Order's 12" Single release of 'Blue Monday'. At the time, and quite possibly still, the biggest selling 12" vinyl single in UK recording history. Because it was apparently issued to promote the album it came from and wasn't going to be made available in a 7" edit, Tony Wilson (head of Factory Records) pushed the boat out on a complicated and/or expensive picture sleeve. I do not know the exact details, but when all the costs were calculated, Factory Records made a loss on each copy sold. Like with most things, there's probably more to this than a simple anecdote can cover, but it certainly offers an example of where selling more does not necessarily increase profit.

That's correct, the original sleeve had a unique die-cut design which was expensive to manufacture, so they simply omitted the cut-out design in favour of a standard printed picture sleeve for later pressings.  An awesome 12" either way...    

Al

On 21/06/2020 at 18:04, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Stop belittling the achievements and skill levels of other modellers, being unable to produce Downes like buildings, Hewitt style signals and such doesn't mean you have to !ower your expectations when it comes to rolling stock

That modeller with his badly built layout is probably working to the limit of his capabilities and would expect manufacturers to do likewise.

 

Mike

I have to agree with the above.  I mean, if I were to enjoy treating myself to a meal in a fancy restaurant at the weekend and pay the full asking price on the menu, should I be expected to lower my standards and accept being served an overcooked main, simply because I live on microwave meals Monday through Friday? 

Furthermore, experiencing the relative luxury of a restaurant-cooked meal might actually inspire me to improve my own skills in the kitchen.  Sometimes we need a symbol of relative 'perfection' in order to inspire/progress.  Similar scenario with modelling really.

Best

Al

@Shoey  Ditto on both of the above suggestions! 

On 22/06/2020 at 12:33, 61661 said:

Over the last couple of years when we've made the effort to do that with CAD images, we've received surprisingly little useful feedback. 

Hello Ben,

That might well be true.  However, it is also worth considering - and this is aimed at all manufacturers, not only yourself/Heljan - that we [the modelling public] are very often presented with either a CAD image, or a photo of a 3D print or pre-production sample - which in most cases will only show any given model from very limited viewing angles.  Hopefully you will agree that this can be quite different to being able to handle your 3D print/pre-production sample 'in the flesh', so to speak, and thus being able to review objectively from all conceivable vantage points.  As such, it is often difficult to pinpoint something that may be perceived as an error when you are staring at a single-angled shot and having no further means to make a fair analysis.  Sometimes even if there is doubt in my mind that something isn't quite right, I know that myself I am often hesitant to raise a point unless I'm absolutely certain, as I realize how a single forum post can sometimes spiral into unnecessary frenzy...

Furthermore - again I'm thinking specifically of a non-Heljan project here - I've sometimes seen startling variations between CAD, 3D print and PP samples - even though all have apparently been produced from the same blueprint, so as such it is perhaps inevitable that some issues may well only become apparent at perhaps later stages within a project? 

Moving on, and with respect to the whole matter regarding the overall shape of the new Heljan 45, and whilst it may now have become more evident since myself highlighting said issues via editing the supplied PP sample photos accordingly, I do however feel that - if only to be fair to other contributors on this topic - that I should highlight that these issues have been raised several times and as far back as June 2019:

Lastly, whether these issues are correctable at this stage is of course up to you guys at Heljan.  For what it's worth - all I can say from a modeller's perspective, is that for myself - growing up watching trains on the Midland Mainline during the 1970s - is that the Class 45 represents the locomotive type I saw pretty much every day, and as a 4 year old lad gazing up at what were then to me absolutely huge, growling monsters - the 'droopy-eyed' representation that the Heljan sample currently seems to depict certainly doesn't resonate well in my memory.  In short, if I had to make a decision right now on the Heljan 'Peak', then I'm afraid my money would be staying firmly in my pocket. 

I'm sure myself, and many others here, will look forward to your updates regarding the aforementioned issues.

PS...  As pointed out to myself also - and maybe these are simply omitted from the sample - but the speedo cable and grease points appear to be absent from the bogie?  (As mentioned to myself by @D1051)

Best

Al

Good to see a painted sample.  Initial reactions - the model does appear to capture the general 'hulk' of the prototype, however, and it's a BIG however... the roof profile still appears to be of incorrect profile, the knock-on effect being an overly slab-sided cabside, along with the all-important windscreen profile appearing of incorrect shape?:

It will be a really splendid model if these fundamental shape issues are to be corrected, Heljan?  @61661

The main bodyside grill is also lacking any representation of the visible inner framework, although I hear that this latter issue is being addressed...

Best

Al

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Fair enough,

it just feels theres a desire to rip these to pieces.

 

A cap falling off is unfortunate, but many more models have had far worse in history, but it seems to be magnified to a huge issue.

Ive not had the issue myself, but creative solutions, rather than hoping the manufacturer does it is really the only fix at this point, for those who have this issue at all..

 

I'm certainly not ripping anything to pieces - be it your comments or indeed the Hattons 66 itself - if anything I've perhaps been one of the more outspoken contributors with regard to finding a solution on the axle-box issue (see much earlier posts within this topic).  I too have invested a fair bit of dosh in these models and like yourself am experiencing very few issues in terms of QC, and by-and-large am incredibly happy, however yes, it would indeed be nice to see an improved axle-box design. 

The problem on forums is that the written word rarely conveys any nuances behind the message and very often we can read what are usually quite innocent comments as perhaps being something caustic.  I cannot speak for others of course, however there's certainly nothing vitriolic coming from my direction. 

I do actually like the sound of the screwed-thread axle-box cover - whether it's screw-fit, push-in, clip-on or whatever, it's great that the ideas are in the public domain.  So let's all keep on sharing those ideas? 

The suggestion from @TomScrut is interesting also - as in I can see what you mean [TomScrut] with regard to creating what would be almost like a 'floating' cradle that the axle sits inside and engages with the bogie-mounted outer axle-box covers when in motion.  If this could be made to work in practice this would probably be a good option, as then the axle-boxes would remain as part of the bogie frame, eliminating the need for covers that protrude unrealistically on curves.  

Of course, whether any of the options above would be practical, desirable or cost effective to implement would be down to the manufacturer, but I'd imagine that these ideas might well have been and continue to be appreciated.

Best

Al 

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Why is everyone quoting me on the shaped axles. 

 

by all means keep ripping apart my previous suggestion on screw threaded axles...

it would be nice to see some more constructive counter proposals, though I can see why those with such ideas might not want to raise their heads above the parapets, theres more germs flying than in a covid sneeze. 

Umm, certainly not "ripping apart" anyone's ideas here, merely stating that I own a few models with plastic axles that waddle like ducks.  I don't think I mentioned screw-threaded axles?   Maybe a misinterpretation of the tone behind the messages perhaps?  

A tad confused... 

Best

Al

10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

i might be wrong, but I think Kader has a patent on that, in several shapes.

 

it was used for ease of quartering of steam loco wheels onto plastic axles

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

Maybe part of the reason that they are hard to come by is that (shaped) plastic axles with metal wheels isn't a brilliant solution.

Agreed, having recently acquired several models that utilise metal wheels on plastic axles.  And all of them wobble like the proverbial pregnant duck.  Disaster.

On 05/06/2020 at 12:14, Accurascale Fran said:

 

 

The bogie detail looks superb - refreshing to see what appear to be true-to-scale bogie steps - something that most manufacturers seem unable or/and reluctant to do.   Nice detailing too on the underside between the bogies.  Superb stuff.

Best

Al

3 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Looks like GBRF are having some more:

 

https://www.gbrailfreight.com/gb-railfreight-announce-lease-of-vtg-rail-uk-ltd-wagons/

Indeed, the updated Ecofret2®, which by all accounts has newly-designed bogies.  Another variation... 

3 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

The UK is an island (or several)  too, it has always been your best defence whether its from Vikings or Spanish and French or the Nazis -  , whats gone so wrong this time?

The UK may well be an island, however it's an overcrowded one... 

Population density:

UK: 274 people per km²
New Zealand: 18 people per km²

Australia: 3.2 people per km² 

4 hours ago, SouthernMafia said:

Got up to our clubroom last week to give 66621 a run in, now runs nicely and the wobble has gone. Now time to sort the lights.. 

Looks great on your layout with a rake in tow!  And yes, would be useful to follow up on the light situation - keen to have a go myself, although those circuit boards are certainly tiny and would be mighty useful if either yourself or others had a couple of photos to show what was going on with the mod etc... 

All the best...

Al

5 hours ago, wormoworm said:

By removing the top 1mm or so from the springs with a scalpel, I was able to get the inner frame to sit nicely in the main bogie frame.

That looks interesting!  I'll check later if any of mine may benefit 

Agree with this ten-thousand percent:

"Lack of a decent attachment between the wheel and the axlebox itself. Each axlebox is pushed onto a small spigot on the wheel and held on with glue, but a moving part like this should really be attached with a thread or something a bit more permanent."

Best
Al

On 29/05/2020 at 18:58, classy52 said:

Basically Hattons have sent you someone else's reject

3 hours ago, classy52 said:

in my opinion it looked like something that had been sent back and re-issued to the customer in question

Ahhh, so now it's "in my opinion", as opposed to "Hattons have sent" - without wishing to be pedantic, however two totally different statements-of-intent.  On a positive note, I guess at least you've proved that you can express yourself clearly, when you try.  

I'll leave it there.

A

6 minutes ago, NINJA said:

It getting a bit like the general media, full of negativity.

It's at this point that @Dicky L usually steps in with a cheery video...    

C'mon DickyL, where are you...?  

3 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Isn’t that the point of the Internet forum, to gauge someone else’s experience , to make an informed purchase decision ? 

Of course, I wholeheartedly and passionately agree on this point and it is one of the greatest aspects of the internet, however... there are occasions where what are clearly little more than individuals' flippant viewpoints or opinions, are instead presented in the form of hard indisputable facts.  And that presents a HUGE and potentially damaging difference: 

We only need to re-read some of the comments further up this very page to see declarations of, (quote) "someone else's reject" [having been supplied to a buyer] as absolute fact - from what could be estimated originates from someone that likely hasn't purchased one of these models for themselves, and therefore unlikely to be placed in a fair position in order to be able to reach such a specific and direct assessment of the product.  I will emphasise that this latter point hasn't been highlighted in order to 'have a pop' at any specific individual, as I am pretty sure that many of these comments are likely posted quite innocently and before actually thinking of the likely effects.  However it does hopefully provide food for thought.  And from what I can gather that's part of the point that  @adb968008 might be making (although I'm happy to be corrected, of course)?!

Similarly, one much earlier "Brutally honest review" springs to mind - presented in what one might arguably regard as an attempt at a 'professional review-styled' video format -  whereby said reviewer can then be seen to go on and openly state in later comments... "Hopefully some of this dodgy first run will end up in the bargain bin at some point..."  

So again, taking a little time to read between the lines does in some instances raise questions over what may indeed hold potential underlying motives, or conversely may simply be a flippant, ill-thought-through comment.   

We can all be guilty of saying things without sufficient thought at times (myself included!), but I think that's perhaps the underlying message here, ie. think a little more before we speak...

Best

Al