ian@stenochs

13 hours ago, Ruston said:

I'll take some pictures when next cut some parts. I have to make the patterns for the bodywork and steps yet but here's the machine itself. It's a Taylor Hobson Model D. I don't know how old it is but I'd guess 1960s. The more modern ones look to be more squared-off. Of course engraving machines look completely different today and are computer-driven but this is proper old school and all manual.

It's very heavy and all cast iron and steel. It had to be lifed off a trailer using a block and tackle, suspended from the roof beams of the garage, and then rolled on socket set extension bars to get it in place.

 

I have a model D also and it gets a lot of use in cutting out mostly  7 mm scale loco parts.  It is very satisfying steering the stylus round a pattern and watching a loco kit appear! Mine lives in my workshop, which is next to the dining room so warm and dry. I assume your slides and tables are greased from the picture.

 

You can still pick up a good example at quite modest cost but watch out for damaged pantograph arms which can be expensive to repair or replace. The main body is very heavy and rigid but careless handling with badly placed slings can wreck the quite delecate working parts.

 

Ian

On 23/08/2017 at 21:10, mswjr said:

These are the only ones that i can find,infact i do not think that i took anymore as i was more interested in building and finishing it than recording it,I was also building a 5 inch gauge manor at the same time,

So how did no 12 come around,Well a friend of mine builds 7 1/4 gauge locos Graham white,and he likes the mswjr,about 30 odd years ago i was thinking of doing a 5 inch gauge metro,

I got the drawings but did not start it,I think i built an allchin traction engine instead,So i gave them to my friend Graham,He said he was going to build a mswjr 2-4-0 as it was the same wheel arrangement

and wheel base as the Metro,He cutout the frames from photos of the loco in the rebuilt gwr guise,and had the wheels cast,Then put it under the bench ,and went on the build two 7 1/4 inch standards 5s

 so 30 odd years later i was getting heavily into the mswjr as it was a local line to me,and my mate Graham said i have a part built chassis under my bench that is a mswjr engine and i bought it straight away,He also made some boiler formers,

 Well without thinking about it too much ,just knew i wanted an engine from this railway,I got the chassis running on air,all the running gear is metro,only the reversing lever is made different ,but that was made near the build end,as it is connected to the wheel splasher,Once i had it running on air,I contacted Mike Barnsley ,He has written books on the mswjr locos and wagons,He helped a great deal with photos and some info that he knew,But no drawings at that time,so i made things like the buffers to to known dimensions of other similar locos at the time,a lot of lswr locos had similar looking parts

like the chimney and dome,Plate work was quite easy mostly made of card first then made of brass,Think i have quite a bit in the scrap box thou,All cab work and splashers were made mostly fron loco

photos and by eye,my thinking was if it looks right then that will be good enough for me,The cab detail was made up by copying other period locos,The only thing i knew for sure was that this loco

 no 12, 11 and 10 had two water gauges .

As for the boiler ,Well i decided not to make it my self as i thought i may have trouble with building a non published design ,so i went to Southern boilers,Gave him all the info that i had,ie,boiler diameter 

and water gauge position ,dome and safety valve position etc,and two years later i had a boiler,and it fitted the frames,Yes i would change a few things on it like the cladding being skimpy in places

and the reversing lever being very close,but all in all very happy with it,But worried that it would not steam good as im making the ashpan and great up as i go along,all to look like the full size loco

in the photos,

Getting thing to fit in the smokebox was lets say ,im not doing that again,and not looking forward to its removal if it has to have one,

The tender was built by again just looking at photos of the loco,frames were sized just by eye,(and the buffer height come out the same as the loco),The tender top looked to me like the Glen tender,

 so i had Model engineers laser cut  out the glen tender without the taps and slots and with some work it looks the part,shortly after i finished the tender i managed to get hold of a tender drawing

 as these tenders were used on other scottish region locos,My tender was pretty close to this but i had the coal plate angles wrong,But all looks well when it is full of coal.

All the painting and lining were done by myself ,looks better in the pictures than it is,I found the lining very hard to do,but i want to play with it and not show case it so im quite happy ,

Then it came to its first steam up,,On the garden table,myself and my friend Graham,Engine jacked up on wood,she steamed great first time,just some small issues like the lubricator to be adjusted,

oh and commercial injectors,These were not good,but all sorted now,passed steam test first time,and she runs great,Very happy,big smile everytime i steam her,My plan is to steam her on every track

from cheltenham to southampton as did the full size loco,hope this info is interesting for you all .  Garry

 

I have just seen this thread and can add a bit of information on the origin of the tender design.  It is in fact a copy of the standard Glasgow & South Westetn tender, originally designed by Hugh Smellie and perpetuated by James Manson.  Dubs built a number of locos for the G&SWR and either just copied the tender design although I suspect they would have come to some arrangement with the Sou'west.  There are some detail differences, axleboxes, springs and buffers being the major ones. The Sou'west drove on the tight so there would be no need to alter the position of the hand brake.

Lovely model.

Ian.

On the G&SWR wagons had the ironwork painted black when new but when they were repainted everything just got painted grey!  I know that is an example from a mainline company but I would expect PO wagons to be treated similarly.  I know how long it takes to paint the ironwork on a miniature wagon so the time on a full sized one would be similar and come at a cost. 

 

Ian.

On 26/03/2019 at 14:48, airnimal said:

Tricky,  thanks for the vote of confidence in my ability, I wish I had as much in myself as you do. 

Laying out a couple of templates on the floor along side a rule gives a clue on how little room I have for a S7 layout. A B10 turnout is 24" long with a B7 at 21". So I think B7 is going to be the largest size I am going to use. Laying out my chopper tank and 6 wagons on the floor  works out at 38". 

Some people have the vision of what they want from a railway but I have never been blessed with that skill.

 

 

Mike,

 

I too swithered over track layouts and the real size of points and crossings.  The almost universal use of Peco track and points, which has a passing resemblance to real track but in no way is it an accurate replica,  does give a distorted idea of space requirements.  It is only when you look at a scale drawing of an actual point that you see just how much space the real railway requires.  However in modelling we have to make some compromises and unfortunately length is where we have to make the most!

 

When I built Auchlin I used B6’s for the main line and a variety of A switches on the sidings and pit tracks.  Most of the points were curved into Ys which saved space and saved the odd inch here and there. That allowed me to get a passing loop in a through single line station and sidings, which could hold 10 wagons, all into 15 feet.  The smaller pre group stock we favour looks just fine on the shorter switches and you will find that visiting stock from a later period will run through ok.  My Horwich Mogul could access the sidings over the A switches but the Duchess could only run on the main line B6’s!  In the real world a Duchess would be on dead slow over a B6!

 

Ian.

 

 

Nigel was on the GOG stand on the Saturday of Glasgow Model Rail this year.

 

ian.

I don’t think that comparing the price of model then and now really gives an indication of the real ‘Cost of Modelling’.  What you are comparing really is how inflation has affected the hobby.

 

It is more interesting finding out just how much per hour your modelling costs.  For example.  If I buy a kit and the other bits and pieces  required to construct it for, say, £10 in total and I take 4 hours hobby time to build it then my cost is £2.50/hour. 

 

On the other hand buying an off the shelf locomotive costing £100 needs virtually no time to get it working so costs none of my hobby time but quite a bit of my capital!

 

I hardly buy anything rtr now but invest in raw materials and components to build from scratch.  My modelling costs works out at pence per hour but the value of the finished models adds considerably to my assets.  

 

Ian.

 

 

On 22/02/2019 at 06:53, NeilHB said:

Thanks Ian, that’s good to know. Do you know if there is an ETA for the kit, and a rough price? Would like to make sure I’ve got monies ready.

12-18 months but price difficult to predict at this early stage.

20 hours ago, NeilHB said:

 

That is very interesting news need! Does one need to be a member of the association to purchase one? 

 

My copy of Modellers BackTrack arrived today, a very interesting read, and plenty of food for thought in terms of long term layout ideas. Plus some useful drawings of No’s. 10 and 13, the very attractive 2-4-0 tender locos. 

 

It does state that M&C goods stock was painted lead grey, so grey my wagon shall be! 

 

The G&SWRA is working with an established kit maker providing information and assisting with the castings.  The kits will be available to all.  However being a member of the Association will be beneficial in attracting a discounted price.

 

Ian.

On 18/02/2019 at 19:22, Buhar said:

I have very few photos of M&C wagons and those I have are pretty dark, but I think the grey (and wagonman is correct in steering you away from red) was darker than that used later by the LMS (for example).  Given that there isn't a specific colour named, you probably have a free hand, but maybe choose something that differentiates subtly between any LNW or FR wagons you might also run.

 

The M&C's No 18 was a copy of the G&SWR's 361 Class with a few differences; buffer beams (as you'd expect), sanders, injector position, whistle and water-bag rests.  The G&SW Association did do a drawing in their Journal many years ago and a copy can be obtained from them.

 

Modeller's Backtrack (of fond memory) had a long article by Phillip Millard on the potential of the M&C for modellers with some good photos and a couple of drawings.

 

The G&SWR Association are currently pursuing the production of an etched brass kit for the 361 class 0-6-0 in 7mm scale. Current thinking is that extra parts for the M&C version will be included.

On 13/02/2019 at 18:12, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm getting to grips with teaching in a state secondary school. This has sapped my energy for modelling. With half term coming up, I may get the chance to make some progress!

 

I taught my whole career in senior secondary schools, some of them approved too.  I found that 15 minutes at the modelling bench every night, after my after dinner nap, put the world into perspective and kept me sane.  Since I retired I find that I don’t need the nap but the modelling is still essential.

 

Ian

Hi Mike,

Yes it worked!

Ian.

Hi, Dave. I like the Glasgow and South Western photo’s. Being photographed from a train enables views you would almost certainly not otherwise obtain. In C8434, at Barrhill on the 9th May, 1987, the box on the platform is so small. It can’t have been much bigger than a ground frame - I know it wasn’t.

With warmest regards,

Rob.

It’s still there and in use! It came from Portpatrick to replace the original which was destroyed in a fire. The line is still operated by tablet and semaphore signals.

Regrettably the Stranraer line sees very little passenger traffic since the Irish Ferries left Stranraer and moved to the non rail connected Cairnryan port. Non car using passengers get bussed from Ayr station.

Stranraer still has a good service but it is very poorly patronised.

 

Ian.

Today's wagon project was a contractor's tipping wagon

 

Contractor's wagon-2.jpg

The attachment of the axles is a bodge. Lengths of brass tube, glued to the frames and bolstered by wedges of plastic to strengthen the joint. Next time I will make plummer blocks from brass, which will be glued and pinned to the frames. In fact the frames themselves may be made from brass as this whole wagon weighs just 9g. What I want is something between this and the heavyweight RT Models cast whitemetal contractor's wagons.

Agh! Boadicea axles fair cuts the legs of the workmen!

 

Merry legless Christmas,

 

Ian

The Dalmellington Iron Co ran trains for their miners consisting of very old 2nd hand coaches acquired from the North British. None of the locomotives were equipped with train braking gear and not all of the coaches had hand brakes! Some of the 6 wheelers had the centre wheels removed, seating was plain wooden benches and there was no heating or light! Better than walking to work, just!

 

Ian

She's fairly huckling that long train of (mostly) empties along!!

 

Jim

I don’t know much about the J37s performance, the one at Ayr saw little use, but I do remember the Caley 812s belting down through Cumnock, on the G&SW, with coal from Sanquhar bound for Ayr Harbour. They had around 20 fulls on but they were coasting down grade!

 

Ian.

Hi Polybear,

 

Needle files are fine for delecate work but for a lot of model building too small. Get a couple of decent quality 8”/200mm flat files, a smooth and a second cut, half round is useful too, and keep them solely for brass and nickel silver. You will find that filing a straight edge and cleaning up etch is much quicker and more accurate than plittering with needle files. Keep expensive needle files for detail work.

 

Any decent tool shop will have a range of quality files but Cromwell tools are good.

 

https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/abrasives/engineers-files/09010101?familiesDisplayed=10&familySkip=20&page=3

 

Ian

I agree Dave, it's a wonderful book and one I dip in and out of for the colourful stories from the men who were there and did it! David L Smith wrote more books including Tales of the Glasgow and South Western, which is also full of excellent tales.

I knew David Smith, a charming gentle man, who was a sickly child and not expected to live but lasted well into his eighties. He wrote 5 books on railways and numerous articles and it was his ‘Tales of the G&SWR’ which inspired me to model that railway since expanded to include the Dalmellington Iron Co locos. You can still pick up his books on the 2nd hand market and well worth the effort.

 

Ian.

 

2018-11-15_05-58-15 by giles favell, on Flickr

Superb model but what scale please Giles?

You mean putting the stuff on transfers will soften them again so that they will come off?

Microset will release transfers just as long as they have not been varnished over. Been there!

 

Ian.

Thanks Marc, I will have a look.

I have lost my mojo just of late. Not sure if it's the onset of winter or lack of progress on my part but I find I make more mistakes and bad judgments than in the summer.

I went to Slaters the other day to pick up some S7 wheels and when I was there I bought some mouldings for a couple of G.W.R wagons thinking it would speed progress. Coming home I realised I don't have a clue how to kit build. I have been building things my own way for so long I have got out of the habit with kit building. I would have to change the axleboxes and buffers and would I be able to get seem less joints between parts. I could have saved my self some money and done my own thing. They say there's no fool like an old fool.

Anyway I have done a bit on the L&Y van but progress is slow. I think I am getting withdrawal symptoms with not doing any cycling.

I know it has only been six months since I came back from Aus but I would love to go somewhere warm again.

I know I won't get any sympathy because most people struggle to get one holiday a year and I have done very well for myself in the past ten years. I wonder how long I can continue to cycle before my old body says enough is enough.

The bike in the photo is my "Airnimal " hence the name.

I too have a similar issues with kits, mostly locos in my case but also wagons. I have a few which have stalled again and are back on the shelf while I get back to building from scratch. So much easier!

 

The problem areas are when the kit designer deviates from how I would build the model or they introduce ‘modifications’ usually dimensional, which make an accurate model impossible from their kit. What makes them frustrating is that you seldom find out the faults until you get started on the build and you have parted with your folding money. I see that your GWR kit has dimensional issues, not unusual!

 

I find that keeping the mojo going is facilitated by having periods away from the workshop doing something completely different! Basically get on you bike! though I prefer a good walk preferably ending up in a decent pub.

 

Ian.

Beautiful models as always, Ian.  Wish I could say the same about the prototypes, but, hey ho, each to his own!   

 

Jim

Thanks for the blue comments Jim! I’m now building a Connor 0-4-2 as a contrast, now that is much more complex with outside cylinders, wavy footplate and multi curved cab.It will be blue too. I am a glutton for punishment.

 

Ian.

For some time I have been building a couple of models of the rebuilt 187 class of 0-4-2. The engines were designed by James Stirling and were typical For the period with a basic round top cab and simple tender.

 

The first rebuild was by Hugh Smellie and was a fairly straightforward conversion. The boiler and motion stayed as original but the frames were extended a bit to take a small bunker and tanks, the cab was also improved. The tanks were used on the City of Glasgow Union Railway on suburban services until displaced by Manson’s 326 class 0-4-4tanks. The 187 class were dispersed to Ayr, Hurlford and Dumfries for shunting duties. 198 is modelled as she was a Dumfries circa 1906 when she was used occasionally on the Moniaive branch as well as general shunting.

 

 

Some of the remaining locos were rebuilt by James Manson in 1900 as a precursor to his better known and larger 221 class. The engines got a bigger boiler, new cab and a neat Manson chimney. Some also got tender cabs. The locos with the tender cab went to Dumfries for use on the Portpatrick and Wigtownshire joint Railway. My model depicts her circa 1906 in the condition she would be when working to Portpatrick.

 

 

 

Ian.

Well, yes.  Raw materials for scratchbuilding are cheap and can, if you look around a bit, be had for free depending on the material.  But the models are not cheap unless you happen to have a fully equipped workshop with all the necessary tools, and unless you are possessed of the necessary skills, you will have to have them professionally painted and finished.  Also there's time to consider, even if you don't cost it as your labour; a loco takes a good while to build, a coach just as long, and modern wagons are not far short of this either.  

 

The point, IMHO, of scratchbuilding is not to save money, but to acquire models that cannot be supplied from RTR or kits, and for what the Irish would term the feck of it; the sheer joy of building it yourself and the pride you have in the finished product; 'I made that'.  I have long term plans to build a diagram A7 or A9 auto trailer for my layout, for both those reasons, but I'll buy cast bogies and buffers for it and it'll probably not cost much less than a Hornby A27/30; that's fine, I'm not doing to save money.

You exaggerate a bit. One does not require a fully equipped workshop to scratchbuild. Neither does one need to pay for a professional paint job.

 

A small collection of hand tools and a soldering Iron is enough to build a decent model. My first loco was built with tinplate from cocoa tins, brass curtain rail extrusion for frames and offcuts of rail for coupling rods. The only purchased bits were the wheels, motor and gears. I used a junior hacksaw, tinsnips, assorted files and a Stanley hand drill, not electric, and a soldering Iron you heated in the fire. The chimney was turned from a bit of brass, a pin from an old electric plug, held in the chuck of the drill and turned with the left hand while the brass was shaped with a file in the right hand.

 

For rolling stock you need even less with only a decent knife, rule and square and a few sheets of plastic card.

 

However I agree with you, scratchbuilders don’t just do it because it’s cheap, we do it for the sheer satisfaction of having something unique to ourselves. Something a rtr model can never give you.

 

Ian

I've been fancying doing one of these for a while - of the G&SW wagons 51L do, this is I think the only one early enough for my c. 1903 date. Examples must occasionally have worked down to the Midlands via the Settle & Carlisle! What vexes me is the livery - when did the G&SW adopt large initials and what were they doing beforehand?

 

Also, is anything known about G&SW wagon sheets at this date?

 

Hoping a 'Sou West Association member is reading!

Hi,

 

The large G&SW lettering came in with Jame Manson circa 1895. Prior to that ownership was on a cast iron plate which included the number on the sole bar. Even after the large painted lettering became the norm the plates were still carried.

 

Wagon sheets were a mid grey with G&SW and the number on each long side.

 

These wagons were for general merchandise so could be found anywhere. There were quite a number of industries on the system who would send goods by rail in Sou’West wagons. Glenfield and Kennedy in Kilmarnock manufactured most of the valves and fittings used in water works and hydraulic systems, Johnstone had many firms making machine tools, particularly saws, and there were lots of thread and cloth makers in Paisley but other places too. Ayrshire is known for the early potatoes grown on the Clyde Coast and there was a thriving timber trade so every excuse fo4 having a ‘foreign’ wagon on your line.

 

Incedently I have seen a period photo of Kilkerran Station, quite a small remote village, with about 10 wagons in the yard. Not one is a G&SW one but there is an SE&CR wagon and two LNWR ones!

 

Ian.