D1072

I've read through this thread with increasing interest; as a former Plymothian who was born too late to remember the branch (but not too late to remember hydraulics) I have a stud including 4569, 5568, 5376 and 6400. If you have not already found it, the Cornwall Railway Society's webpage www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/plymouth-to-launceston-the-gw-route.html is full of inspiring photos. There are some very interesting formations on the branch to model: 4:30pm Tav to Plymouth; toplight autocoach, 6407, BCK W6940(no suffix W). The Middleton Press Launceston & Princetown branch book shows that you can even use centenary stock: 4592 + Fruit D, 3 milk tanks, centenary BCK (E150, 6650-55), probably a C67 3rd, centenary BTK (E120). Now this looks a bit different (under magnifying glass) to the Airfix version, so I suspect it is the left hand version, just two coaches built (4577/8) which had a large corridor window where Airfix right hand version (4 built) has a toilet window. Maurice Dart's book (Last Days of Steam in Plymouth & Cornwall) tells us that 4591 and 4592 had bufferbeam numbers painted on c. 1960; there is also a photo of 4549 (inside steam pipes) similarly treated in another book, at Devonport which can be dated to after February 1960 (when it still had its smokebox numberplate). You can also run a 55xx on an autocoach (5572); 5511 and 5560 were also fitted, appearing ex South Wales in 1958. I've not seen photos of either working auto on the branch, but 5560 did work to Saltash. 5511 is interesting, camera shy, but appears in "Western Steam in Devon & Cornwall" (M. Welch) pre 56 logo, black, very clean, station pilot at Plymouth in September 1960. 5544 and 5545 both have two steps on the tank fronts rather than the usual one - I think I've seen 5569 similarly with two steps, and just found a contradictory photo, so this is a "beware, tanks changed at overhaul" situation! Re. post #157, I would be surprised if clearance was the reason Castles were not allowed past Yelverton, 45xx are also high and the tunnels were built for broad gauge. More likely the Horrabridge bowstring girder bridge or Walkham viaduct prevented red engines. The bowstring girder bridge may be a pig to model and unfortunately there's little left of the abutments to see how the girders "sat" on the masonry. I can understand the lack of progress, personally having been frustrated by house moves, and ending up with several half finished pieces of different layouts which had too much work done to justify scrapping them. I think it is great when someone has enough courage to model a real station; it adds an educational and historical side to your layout, especially if you exhibit it. Paul

Some comments on sea defences in response to earlier posts: Re. Hallsands – a ghost village in South Devon which was undermined in a storm in January 1917 – this was the result of dredging aggregate about a mile offshore, to build the northern extension to Devonport Dockyard (which now includes the submarine refit area). Plymouth Breakwater was constructed earlier, of large limestone blocks from quarries at Oreston and West Hoe, c. 1810. It has a very shallow angle (1 in 5?), the original plan had steeper slopes but storms dictated otherwise. Alterations to the coastline can have unpredictable effects. At Dawlish, dumping large rocks, as between Langstone Cliff and Dawlish Warren, would probably be unacceptable from a tourism point of view as mentioned in #289, although it may be needed temporarily in order to effect a repair. A better solution than permanent rock tipping would be a well engineered outer wall carrying a wider footpath, perhaps similar to that at Teignmouth seafront, which would properly deflect waves before they impact the railway retaining wall. Comments from the Captain and NR indicate we now have the opportunity for a reinforced concrete wall with stone facing – much more substantial, providing it can be anchored well into the bedrock deep enough to be safe from wave scour. If there could now be provision of a higher level walkway at Sea Lawn, rather than down at high tide level, this will give the railway retaining wall extra protection arising from a new outer walkway wall which this section has never had. Post 241 mentions loss of beach sand – installation of more groynes will help, but I’m not sure who would be responsible for this. The original wall was built by the SDR in 1846 with, I suspect, limited and mainly local investment. Many sections have been rebuilt after various breaches; these are listed in brief in “Rails Along the Sea Wall” (Platform 5, 1990). I don’t have either Anthony Kingdom’s 2008 book or Colin Marsden’s 2009 book – these may provide more details of when certain sections were rebuilt or repaired. The section between Dawlish viaduct and Kennaway Tunnel was completely rebuilt, much nearer the sea on a less curved alignment, on doubling in 1902. This had the unexpected effect of lowering the sand cover here. There are complex interactions involving weather, currents, longshore drift which need to be considered if any breakwaters, groynes, “reefs” etc are built. A thorough hydrological survey – perhaps funded out of the £100m apparently promised by the PM yesterday – would help to develop a solution to maintain sand cover along the whole coastline, including Dawlish Warren, which helps prevent Exeter from flooding. Great work being done by the Captain and the rest of the crew in what must be hazardous conditions. I hope use of the concrete sprayer, if appropriate, will help save the houses.

More on the 1986 Teignmouth breach, which occurred just west of Parson's Tunnel - I've dug out my log book (I used to live in Plymouth so this info would have been taken from the local news). 26/2/86: Breach occurred at ~12am, north of MP 208; conditions high tide and force 11 SE gale. Wall undermined. Ballast washed out between down main and inside of wall. 27/2/86: foundations being undermined further. 40 feet of infill lost between wall and DM. 2/3 of width of walkway collapsed 28/2/86: 20 feet of undermined wall collapsed onto beach. DM suspended across gap. UM dipping. Class 47 and 10 ECC PBAs filmed passing at 5mph on up line, BBC news 3/3/86: single line working 10/3/86: DM reopened - 13 days There was then a long period of substantial work on the section of wall towards Sprey Point. As can be seen from today's photos, the scale of damage at Sea Lawn is both longer and wider. There has always been less beach here than at Teignmouth.

This wall breach appears to be one of the most serious, since both lines have been undermined. Recent news http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26044323 shows the properties at Sea Lawn terrace are being affected. In the February 1986 breach at Teignmouth (near Parson's Tunnel), the up main remained viable (but closed, except for a few emergency clay trains). Following this a long term plan to build new wall foundations involved machinery being moved from Sprey Point along the beach between every high tide, a very slow job. The viaduct at Smuggler's Cove (just west of the tunnel) was built following the 1855 breach, this and 1872/3 are apaprently the only instances of major loss of the wall itself (rather than of the fill behind it). Can any one remember how long this 1986-87 work took? At Dawlish, the section which has collapsed today is the Sea lawn gap, with the walkway at sea level (apparently to prevent people looking in the windows of Sea Lawn Terrace). "Rails Along the Sea Wall" (Platform 5, 1990) informs that this section was breached in 1930. Immediately south, the high level part until the breakwater was rebuilt in 1869. North of the sea lawn gap to and just after Rockstone footbridge was rebuilt in 1872/3. The photo on p51 shows the wall masonry washed onto the beach. The earlier post showing loss of sand cover and exposure of stepped footings below the walkway suggest a much lower beach level today, which is going to make rebuilding much more difficult that from the wide beach at Teignmouth in 1986. As regards Options 1-3, the railway provides protection for Sea Lawn Terrace, and the cliff behind which carries the A379 and Marine Parade. If the railway is not rebuilt, the whole of the Dawlish seafront will become vulnerable, so it makes sense to invest in sea defences which benefit both line and town. Reopening via Tavistock - a major housing development is planned for the town, a condition of which is improved public transport - a good case for reopening from Bere Alston. The big problem of the missing link to Okehampton would be Meldon viaduct.

The last Siphon G's lasted until c. 1983, probably because they were used on the newspaper train. I recall seeing W1047 (without suffix w) branded Newspapers - this vehicle had all its side vents plated over except the two at each end.

Another blue one to add: 829 - 3 from Oct 69 The "Book of the Warships" also describes numerous minor detail differences including handrail lengths. Regarding the "weld line" just above the sandbox covers, mentioned earlier: If you have a copy of "Diesel Hydraulic Locomotives of the Western Region", the photo on p46 of a D800 under construction at Swindon shows this line to be where the side sheet comes to an end as it meets the frame structure. NBL built locos 835-865 do not seem to have been built with this line, presumably because, after building 834, NBL decided to use a longer piece of sheet metal - perhaps it was easier to acheive a clean join at the bottom of the bodyside. Also, note how the line which continues from under the headcode boxes continues round the corner of the nose of a Class 42, with a small step down. On most 43s. this horizontal line terminates above the outside edge of the buffer; the cab bottom corner is smooth, and does not have a step caused by an overlapping sheet of metal like a 42. However... looking through "Book of the Warships": 835 - in blue may have a line (photo is not clear enough) 842 in Maroon FYE, Oct 69 - a line is present. It had collision damage work in Oct 66 and major work in Spring 68 853 in blue has the line (maybe post Sep 67, Didcot derailment repairs) 854 in blue - no sign of a line on the cabs, but split between the cab doors. 857 in blue - no line amidships, but DOES have on its cabs. Book lists "intermediate body overhaul" ending 22/9/65 after which it was in Maroon, so maybe Swindon reskinned its cabs. So if you want to model 834, or one of these, a Mainline/Bachmann body is OK Hopefully, Bachmann will produce a version with no "line"/ step in the bodywork (and avoid these number/livery combinations).

I can confirm the Captain's observation of two 16T minerals at Hele & Bradninch mill siding in 1985 or 86 - painted bauxite. Is it posible they were there for a while because the siding had been disconnected? I believe they had delivered coal to the mill. According to Wikipedia, the mill is still open, producing sausage cases and teabag paper!

Any chance of offerring a non-powered loco option in the next release? The full green ones often went around in pairs when new. Paul

Hi Dave, this is in response to your CAD posts #1192 and #1208 for nose details of locos 6306-6333 as built. [Eyebrow vents ignored]. Apart from the feature above the left hand handrail, you have not added the headcode disc retaining lugs. These appear to be small spring clips mounted on small blocks (perhaps two inch square). There are enough well produced photos in the recent Western Legacy Class 22 booklet to identify ten of these clips. The one you have on the CAD is to hold the top discs when the connecting door is open. When the doors are shut, there are clips (arranged around the open disc) at 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock (on the right hand door) The bottom left disc has three clips, at 11 and 1 o'clock, plus one at 5 o'clock to hold the middle bottom disc when the doors are open (this one must be in line below the top one above the handrail) The middle bottom disc has clips underneath the bodywork - at 5 and 7 o'clock. Finally, the bottom right disc has clips above at 11 and 1 o'clock Please can you move the centre lamp bracket about 1mm to the left. Also the feature below (which appears to be a short piece of L angle) is bolted to the left hand door with two bolts, so should not be in the middle. Both the centre discs should also be slightly off centre to the left, they are fixed to the left hand door. There are also two screws, above the inside of teh oval feature, level with the centre lamp bracket (photos of 6306 and 6310 in the booklet suggest there was a location to attach a bracket to support the end of a headboard and keep it horizontal). The outboard lamp brackets seem to be above the disc hinges. The outboard discs look a bit low. The red light on the right hand door - as someone has mentioned, the lamps should be oval. NB it does not sit on a square base with round corners, as the four white lamps do. What's underneath the discs? : If you look at one of the locos which has been converted to headcodes, such as 6326/27, the outside lamp mounting plates remain - the oval holes for the lamps have been covered with small oval plates. The vertical rectangle to the right of this is where the disc hinge was attached and the two clip blocks are re-used to form the outer ends of the improvised handrail mounting. The two top clips, under the nose curve remain - [they seem to be on all locos except rebuilt A end of 6322 and 6357]. Incorporating all this will save hours of work for us perfectionists! Great that a company is making the effort to do its research properly - thanks! Paul

More on cab fronts: D6322 appear on the cover of Traction #90, April 2002 At the boiler end, it has a normal cab front for the 6314-32 series (no eyebrow vents), except for the feature in the bottom left corner. This appears to be a square block similar to those fitted to 6334-57 for lamp bracket mounting. On the right hand corner, 6322 has a square blanking plate with rounded corners, covering the hole where the lamp for the headcode disc was. To the right of this is a vertical feature. To speculate this could be a small grab handle, or there may be a hole behind to form a crude vent. On 6332 (non boiler end) the feature is absent from right hand corner - there is a horizontal panel join here so it's had a new corner fitted. The curved strips under the inner ends of the headcode boxes - these may be stops (and clips) for the 2 piece nose doors. Those horizontal handrails above the HCB's - moved from a vertical (or near vertical),position at build: the position varies with loco! 6322 and 6332 have them at the outside, whilst 6328 they are further in. Is anyone aware of a photo of the other end of 6322? D6323 Both photos are of a down train, and thus of the same cab; at Callington the buffer stops are behind the photographer. On a 22 the headcode boxes do not protrude much, thus a hole must be cut in the front for the rollers and mechanism to fit in. 6323 must have had the holes made, then blanked over. I would think that it has kept it's single leaf doors and their fittings. Laira Open Day 1970 - I was there (aged 2!). Does anyone know which 22's were present? (the leaflet states one was in road 6, the main overhaul shed) Paul

The link should appear as http://www.brucehunt.co.uk/Class%2022.html from Bruce Hunt's Tamar Valley website

More on headcode boxes: D6306 also had its boxes placed as high as they could go (resulting in the electrification flashes being placed underneath). The photo is on the Rail Photoprints website at http://www.railphotoprints.co.uk There is also a photo of D6324 in full green with boxes placed high - they could be the same type. Previous posts have noted D6302, D6317 had "non standard" headcode boxes. However, one loco was fitted with "Oddboxes" I have come across these pictures of a D63XX at Callington: http://www.brucehunt.co.uk/Class%2022.html. I'd seen a poor quality version of the photo elsewhere once, and remembered the caption stated D6323. (possibly in a book on the Callington branch?) and thought that it was a headcode box-less loco with half yellow panel. However, it is a real mutant! (perhaps it had worked the Devonport Dockyard trip freight and been irradiated during nuclear submarine refuelling!!) It appears to have lost the lower, outer discs, kept the almost vertical small handrails. Not acquired new handrals on mounting brackets, which appeared when boxes were fitted. The "headcode" panels do not appear to have a hinge on top and just be flat plates. The dirt below them suggests the loco has been running in this condition for a while. Could it be that a headcode box conversion kit had been dispatched to Laira, and only half fitted before the loco was sent back into traffic? The position of the lamp brackets and the larger circles below the boxes [are they grilles over horns, or vents?] suggest that this is not D6323. There are no oval features pannelled over (the bottom half of which can be seen under a headcode box of a loco built without boxes). So I think it is actually one of the batch *built with* headcode boxes, which has acquired a set of doors with discs from 6300-33, but has had its boxes partly removed or plated over! I can't recall the closure date of Gunnislake to Callington to help date the photo, but was probably 1966.

. . . or helped to remove part of the ugly fence teetering around the edge of the turntable pit and right in the way of taking photos! It is there because the semi roundhouse is now industrial units, the ground between the shed and turntable is now fully concreted in and is used by road vehicles to and from the depot entrance (right / north of the roundhouse), the roundhouse units, and the former CMR works (the long bit with the two story powerhouse which Daminan has modelled).

Great and Inspirational modelling! More books! "The Newquay Branch and its Branches" [John Vaughan] has several photos of the sheds including the wagon repair shop, including the inside - more in "An Illustrated History of West Country China Clay Trains" The roundhouse - does anyone have a definitive measurement for the length of the building? Counting bricks and scaling from google earth (given the turntable is stated to be 71" diameter) gives different values -somewhere between 75 & 90 feet. The turntable - the tracks curve onto it - except the middle road 5 - probably because there was origionally a smaller turntable with its centre further from the shed (45-50' diameter ?). If straight lines are drawn along the centres of each roof ridge [having printed out the google earth image], they converge at a point about 10 feet from the centre of the present turntable. This point can be assumed to be the centre of an origional, smaller turntable with stright tracks to it. A larger turntable cannot be accomodated on this point as the nearmost running line is in the way, so the centre would have to go closer to the shed, requiring curved approaches. 50' would be long enough to hold two CMR 060T's - but I've not come across any reference to a smaller turntable in earlier years. I was planning a compressed model of the roundhouse, part in low relief, but that is on hold with a house move in sight. Class 25s - the derbysulzers website has full details of when each loco arrived (from summer 71) and departed from the South West. Class 35s - I've never seen a photo of a Hymek on clay. Laira had a small number from 1964-67 including D7095+ (all the last 6? - not sure) from new, also D7068 and a few others. I believe this was to work the ex SR route via Okehampton, but I have seen a photo of one at Penzance. Someone like Bernard Mills (Plymouth Railway Circle) might know more about their workings in Cornwall. An article in Traction established D7032 and D7055 were the last visitors (to PZ) in 1972 during a strike, I guess Hymeks would have been extremely rare west of Plymouth after 1967. The crossing keeper's cottage - I remember watching the TV programme - the owner stripped off the render which had covered it for much, if not all of its life (most buildings close to the sea tend to be rendered, particularly those of brick or rubble construction). The shed headshunt was immediately behind the cottage, and a loco (or DMU?) had gone through the buffers at some point!

Plymouth Station Pilots - Origionally (and certainly up to the introduction of Mk3 slepers in 1983), the Plymouth portion for the sleeper was formed BG, BG, SLC, SLC. The SLCs were normally W2419/31/32. The loco(s), invariably class 50 during the 80s, detatched from the up sleeper which had arrived from Penzance on Platform 7, ran back onto 8 to pickup the portion and shunted it, with sleeping (?) passengers onto the front. I travelled this way in 1978 (but being 11 was far too excited to get much sleep behind 50016 + 50039). I do not know what the involvement of the station pilot was at this time. Later (1990's) an 08 (not the station pilot, but on of the Laira carriage shunters, often 08641/45) hauled a single SLEP onto PL8 where it was coupled up to the shore supply. I believe the 08 then shunted the sleeper onto the Rear of the up Night Riviera (and that it could have been the last 08 passenger shunt). More recently, in the class 57 period, the loco has once again come off the stock to collect a single sleeper and attach it to the front. As for the "real" station pilot 08 (headcode 0B01 apparently), it spent most of its time at the east end of the station, and before the end of parcels traffic was busy removing loaded rakes of 10 vans to and from Platforms 2 & 3 to either park sidings behind platform 8, or onto the middle road. Occasionally it would go to Platform 2 west end bay if there was a Motorail GUV to be removed from the end loading dock (cars had to drive over the main pedestrian access to teh platforms and past the REd Star parcels office to get to teh road) Earlier (pre HST) when portions were detached from most Cornish trains, the 08 removed the portion from the rear, shunting it into the middle road before a type 4 removed it to Laira. Eastbound portions were shunted on by the train engine. I think the last aattach/ detatching work would have ben with the 1S71 Penzance-Aberdeen which brought up the Plymouth Sleeper empties (they went all teh way to PZ on teh down train). With teh station pilot having detached the sleepers & BGs, 4 more coaches were added to the rear (by hte loc which had brought them in from Laira) to make up a 13 coach rake. THis loco then took the Sleeper portion to laira, whilst the 08 went to the east end, perhaps to shunt a van on/off the Swindon - Penzance I have only seen one instance, 08953, bringing a complete rake of coaches from Laira, in this case to the middle road. The final job for an 08 at Plymouth would be (and perhaps still is!) to deliver and retrieve HST power cars to replace a failure - requiring one of the HST coupling fitted ones. In steam days, with track layouts with few facing points, there would have been much more shunting to get ECS / vans / portions into the right places Also, carriages were often cleaned in carriage sidings, not at the platform INVERNESS I don't know if this was unusual, but during my 1 week "Freedom of Scotland" railrover tour in August 86 I was on the last train back from Thurso / Wick (one of 37418/19/21 I think), which instead of arrival at the far north platforms 5/6/7 went straight on at Rose St box, past the shed, then backed in to the "main" platforms - under the semaphore gantry - wonderful! Probably a move to release the 37 to shed without needing a pilot.

Could it have been used on the Totnes Quay branch? [Due to low axle load?]

Class 118's were built for the West Country, and as has been noted, were non corridor origionally. All of the fleet received gangways. All were formed as 3 car units during the late 70's, 80's and set numbers were 460-473 in order, except for P480 W51312-W51327. This was kept as a power twin for working the Gunnislake branch, which has sharply curved 1 in 40 gradients through wooded areas. It was regular on the Plymouth - Gunnislake in 1981/82. (Seen working to Barnstaple in 1978) I did see it (in blue and grey) with a 101 trailer once, possibly W59551. (c. 1985 I think) I think I've seen a photo of a 118 with a different set number - possible they were renumbered when they received gangways. In 1986 the 118 fleet was repalced by the new 142's, marketed as "Skippers" (the nautical connection). However, they did not like water on the rail, so sometimes two sets were used to Gunnislake to aid adhesion. Flange wear (and squeal) was a problem. By 1988 they were gone, replaced by 108s numbered in the P95x series. I photographed one of the 142's still in Chocolate & Cream at Durham in 1991/2. 1970's thoughts (I started recording numbers in 78) 101's - Bristol sets B801-804 worked Exeter area - to Paignton, also evening Ex-Ply trains (a way of getting to Laira?) 103's - I've seen pictures at Kingswear in 1971 116's - regional spare set P440 allocated LA 1981 - mix of 116 & 117 117's - P432-435 c. 1982 4 units on LA 119's - were used on Newquay services in 70's 120's - used in Cormwall during 70s as 2 or 3 car sets (sets 552-559. I don't remember 551) 121's - interesting to see 55025/6 working from Swansea in 1971 - does anyone know when they came down to Laira? 122's - alllocated away from South West (when? I think a 122 was involved in the last Okehampton trains in 1972)