andyrush

Do I see a fitted three plank wagon with no vacuum pipe peeping under Crescent bridge? I deliberately didn't get any brussels sprouts knowing who is coming to dinner tomorrow! Lots of eating and drinking here at Rush Towers (and a bit of model railwaying), then it's off to Vienna for the New Year (and the trams ) All the best for Christmas. Andy

It looks like a parlous job! Here is the best of only two shots I have of the bridge - even in 1966, there was a bit traffic dodging going on..... Andy

Probably not a lot of help, but here is bridge No.240 pre-1903 viewed from the up side. I've now gone delving into the archives to see what more modern shots I've got.... Andy

Yes, March men were conservative! It probably reflected the high average age of the top link drivers who worked the passenger jobs. I never did get a straight answer from people I spoke to at March about how actual engines were rostered, but I suspect that the main Joint Line B17 jobs were individual engines for specific drivers and that they weren't used on much else. This would be relatively easy to accomplish, given that the depots passenger engine workings were nearly all daytime jobs. Some of the diesel workings in later days were almost as exclusive, with EE Type 3's with known 'good' boilers rarely being seen on freight workings. Are you sure that the sightings of 1652 at Lincoln weren't on the summertime 9.8am/9.15am (MFO, TWTHOQ) Cambridge - Manchester Central which acted as a relief to the 'Boat Train' proper, and was a 31A B17 job to Sheffield Victoria? The train should be identifiable in photos on the down journey by the lack of a restaurant car as the second vehicle from the engine. Andy

The only light I can throw on 1660 is that somehow the loco was a 'beneficiary' of the somewhat chaotic process of introducing diesels into East Anglia. The theory seems to have been that as the EE 2000hp Type 4's took over the Liverpool Street - Norwich trains, Britannia's would be transferred to March to replace the V2's which would then go to other ER sheds. Similarly, as other lower powered diesels replaced them, B1's from all East Anglian sheds would gradually filter to March to replace the B17's and K3's there. As can be seen by looking at the actual transfers, nothing so smooth and orderly actually happened. The Brit's seemed to have been cordially disliked by March men and this was reflected in some of the jobs they were given. Similarly, poor condition B1's were not seen as equivalent to the 31B B17's or even the K3's. I wasn't aware of the works situation of 1660, but if it didn't require much work when it got to Doncaster, it could well have been patched up and sent back to Lowestoft for a few months before being ousted by diesels, finishing up at March, where it suffered from the reduction in cleaning that was taking place as a result of driver training on diesels. Andy

GN Bridge Book entry for Springfield Road Bridge, No.240 Brick abutments 19ft 9in span under down and up main lines, superstructure reconstructed in 1899 with steel trough girders and curved floor plates. Abutments extended on down side for 2 additional lines of rails in 1872, superstructure reconstructed in 1903 with additional girder and trough flooring, under present down slow line and siding. Footpath opening constructed in 1872 on north side of bridge. Brick semi-circular arch 10ft 0in. Abutments extended on up side in 1872. Superstructure reconstructed in 1903 with steel girders and trough flooring. Span 19ft 10in under present up slow line and siding. Cast iron face girder and parapet. Abutments further extended in 1903 for 2 additional down sidings. 19ft 8in span steel girders and trough flooring, cast iron face girder and wood parapet. Footpath opening extended at same time for these 2 lines, 10ft 0in span I have also come across references to the road originally being called Brick Kiln Lane but the Bridge Book makes no mention of this Good luck with the Christmas activity! Andy

No, I think it would have been the last hurrah for 1630 to help out on the holiday passenger services for a couple of months - the RO for the period might say something. This undated picture http://www.themodelcentre.co.uk/images/uploads/B17/61630.jpg shows the engine at March with what looks like a 31B shedplate and a full tender of coal, but of course this could have been during her earlier sojourns at there up to 1951 and again briefly in 1954. I don't have Yeadon so I don't know if she ever got the later crest. Andy

Looks in pristine condition, considering that it is withdrawn

Have a look at the Goods Train Operation thread that I have started and where I mention your wonderful railway (with apologies in advance!) Andy

Very nice view of the O1 even in its grotty condition, but empty highs to Stanground? I think not - all these were supplied to the Whittlesea area brick sidings from Peterborough East and Whitemoor (pre-grouping demarcation rules lived, even in 1958!). I might know things about wagons and goods trains, but I don't know anything about smokebox doors (except that they carried the number and the shed plate), and even less about ukulele domes, but that V2 looks very nice also, wrong colour though....! Andy

Well done, that’s taken a bite out of the half million. You need a few of these as well: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenwood And some of these http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brsteelshockopen Plus some other 5 plank opens, like those here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bropenmerchcoil Then mix them all up, put the tilt bars down and you’ve got a pretty good trip to Fletton – with the proper engine of course, not the station pilot. You could even steal that nice Boston J6 for the job.

The topic of 'where PO coal wagons would have been seen' between 1923 and 1939 is one which is less easily answered now than it was in my youth when there were people about who had seen lots of coal and empties trains that you could badger into answering your questions. Of course, a lot of said people were really only interested in the usually shiny things on the front, but there were some exceptions. I spent a lot of my early railway career doing a lot of badgering (it often took a while to get colleagues to ADMIT they were interested in the trains they were involved in), and it became obvious that few modellers understood (or cared about) the subject. From all this and a lifelong interest in goods trains, it is possible to advance various 'principles' based on a mixture of hearsay evidence, looking at photographs of trains (and being careful to note what is not there as well as what is) and research using Railway Clearing House documents and miscellaneous railway instructions and correspondence 'rescued' over the years. I'm quite happy to put some of these principles' up to be shot down if people are interested, but it is such a broad subject that I suggest it would need to be a separate thread. And as my main interest in goods train working is LNER (Southern Area), anything beyond that would be even more a matter of opinion, but it might start some useful discussion. Andy

Whilst admiring the dedication involved in putting together this database (as one who has been involved in an infrastructure database for the last 30+ years), at the moment it needs treating with some caution as the following will demonstrate (with apologies for the Sweedy bias!) B17 61626 Brancepeth Castle BRD 32A at 01.01.1948 31C w/e 06.12.1958 31B w/e 11.04.1959 31A w/e 12.12.1959 WDN 11.01.1960 Actual 32A at 01.01.1948 31B by --.08.1950 31C w/e 06.12.1958 31B w/e 11.04.1959 31A w/e 12.12.1959 WDN --.12.1959 B17 61641 Gayton Hall BRD 31A at 01.01.1948 WDN 28.01.1960 Actual 31A at 01.01.1948 31B by --.08.1950 WDN --.02.1960 I'm not bothered about the withdrawal dates (difference between 'shed' and 'official' dates?), but to a casual reader some of the present information will give a false impression, and this includes the 'snapshots', which is what first highlighted the problem to me by consistently understating the March depot allocation. Nevertheless, I recognise a project of this nature will always be a 'work in progress' and wish the compiler(s) the best of luck Andy

Less glof, more aclohol

Tell him I've got plenty more taken at the same time. I don't have a date, but I'm pretty sure that the guy who took the shots had a lineside permit and was recording the building prior to demolition (date of that?) Andy

Pedant Pendant was going to go and look out old diagrams/simplifiers from York Regional Control days , but it's cold in the loft and I don't think the actuality is going to overcome the prejudices displayed here.... Good luck with the layout

Did somebody mention Peterborough Crescent?

Regarding the WTT simplifiers, I have a question to ask - what traincrew depots are assumed to have route knowledge over your railway? So far as locos are concerned, Immingham didn't have an allocation of class 20's in 1975, I don't think. And even if they did, they weren't used on trunk trains, they were for trippers in the Scunthorpe area. A pair of 31's would be more likely. Also, I don't think it is very realistic to have a class 40 coming off the ER via Horns Bridge, Barrow Hill and Derby men didn't drive them and neither did most Tinsley men by 1975. I remain Yours faithfully An Eastern Region Pedant

Nice pictures. Good to see that the shunter has replaced the unusable van in the dock very hurriedly between pics 3 and 4 Andy

A dyed in the wool LNER (GE) enthusiast is impressed too! I look forward to seeing the changes at Watford

Not really on topic but I couldn't resist it. Whilst browsing through NRM photos I came across this gem: http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=liverpoolst&item=284 It depicts a nice shiny V2 in a publicity view at Essendine (it says). Now if the place is right, the loco should have been provided by New England, but their cleaning standards were presumably so bad that they had to draft in a March engine!

I'm only willing to be the driver on a March B17.....

Aha, my propaganda is bearing fruit! The general problem is not the lack of information about goods wagons (although, no doubt, that applies to some rolling stock), but the lack of information/knowledge about how wagons were used and why. A lot of modellers don't seem to care, after all a wagon is a wagon is a wagon, but perusal of photographs - even allowing for the scarcity of same mentioned by LNER4479 above, can give a lot of clues, as can common sense! One superb ECML layout, which shall remain nameless, used to feature a couple of empty bogie bolsters on a southbound train - where WOULD they be going? So, as Gilbert has mentioned numerous times in this thread that he wanted to create an everyday scene, I thought I would try and assist him. Although I only started on BR in 1961, 'traditional' goods trains lasted a few years after that, even with diesel power, and I was always much more interested in goods trains than passenger trains. For four years or so in Cambridge Control Office, I had access to the station roof via the fire escape and when things were quiet it was a splendid vantage point for the viewing the almost constant activity on the up and down goods lines, and I also spent a fair amount of off-duty time at Whitemoor Yard (very sad, I know, but at the time I didn't have much money for other temptations......). The other thing, alluded to above, is to try and achieve a prototypical 'mundanity' to the trains on Peterborough North - if I have anything to do with it, there will be no wagons carrying ships propellors or large industrial boilers disfiguring Gilbert's railway, but there is the problem that most of his fiddle yard is full of shiny passenger trains (and he hasn't got enough room for all of those!). At the moment, I am sending my observations to Gilbert privately, but if he wants to post them and others want to see them, they will no doubt appear on here. Andy

Did Bescot men drive these?

Multinational tax avoidance?