Pennine MC

...dates to blue

 

5543 Some confusion-my records say still green 4/2/70 but also early blue with D-both cant be correct! I shall check further.

 

Courtesy of cabsaab - the date may be coincidence, who knows

I believe they replaced the Rostyles on the Cortina GXL around 1971/2 (probably to save cost).

That ties in with my recollection, Bernard (and also on the GT). I had a 1972 2000GT with plain wheels and hubcaps, which could be useful - I never found out what it had had as original, they apparently got nicked off the car lot before I bought it... As you and Peter have said, the later type (IIRC we called them the 'knobblies') were fitted widely to Capris and 'Tinas until into the '80s

The only photo I know of that shows three blue/grey Hawksworth coaches (all SK) is Plate 32 in Profile of the Warships. They are in a train entering Exeter St Davids from the West behind D806 Cambrian. Date given is 17 August 1968. There are photos of individual blue/grey Hawksworths, including colour ones, behind Westerns, D800 Warships and D600 Warships. Around 1967, one appears to have been the regular Plymouth-Penzance coach added to the front of the Cornish Riviera, and running as the leading vehicle in both directions west of Plymouth.

 

I believe the numbers were 1719, 2135 and 2283.

 

I'm surprised it's not been commented on earlier but there was a letter in the last Toddler about these, which said they'd been retained to accomodate catering trolleys on the Cornish leg of the journey of through trains, as they wouldnt fit through Mk1 compartment doors. No idea of the relative dimensions of said parts of said coaches, but it does seem a plausible explanation for three otherwise obsolete vehicles to receive blue/grey - other than the fairly numerous examples of Staniers, there were no other pre-BR designs of non-specialist day coach* so treated.

* Please note careful wording. If this thread descends into the usual 'ah but' posts and long lists of buffets and sleepers, I will scream; very, very loudly

Dont want to rubbish your notekeeping Andy but with that '0000' headcode, it's more likely to be '76

Where did all the Hawksworths go?

 

 

Bit of info here Rod, though I'm still waiting on definite proof of any with M prefixes and not on the Cambrian

Railcar recounts the early usage of the 123s, albeit uncharacteristically garbled and without a detailed timeline:

The sets were originally designed for a through South Coast - Wales service, and initially consideration was given to building them with diesel electric transmission. Plans for a through service from Brighton were abandoned because of the SR`s resistance to DMUs, but they did manage to make it to Portsmouth on services from Cardiff and Bristol.

The sets were introduced on Western Region services between Swansea, Cardiff, Birmingham, Derby and Crewe, and on the Cardiff to Bristol route. Displacement saw them allocated to Reading for working "outer-suburban" services out of Paddington to Oxford and Newbury

 

I've certainly seen at least one contemporary shot of one when very new on something described as a Derby - Bristol IIRC; putting the best interpretation on the sometimes conflicting evidence, I'd postulate that they were indeed intended for the Cardiff - South Coast route, but that the SR put the kybosh on it, then the NE/SW route usage was maybe an attempt to find work for them until somebody had the bright idea of stopping services at Portsmouth rather than Brighton

In the early seventies, it was almost always Hymeks- the train sometimes including a Stanier BG- going over to 31s in 1974/5. Someone with a sense of humour in Control sometimes substituted a DEMU for this-

As I understand it (not being local, just from recollection of how the mags reported it at the time), there was a spell in between the last Hymek use and the 31 takeover, when the workings were diagrammed to be shared between WR Cross Country sets and SR 3Hs. Based on those dates, it may well have been from about 1972ish (by which time Hymeks were getting scarce) to 1975ish

 

Another edit to thank PH for PM-ing me this: http://georgestrainp.../p64136962.html - Anglias and Corsairs, the Anglia Estate looks very high spec, what was the equivalent of Ghia?

'CHARD' The word your looking for is Deluxe - which meant 2 tone paint, more chrome trim & a heater .

 

Anglia Deluxes weren't necessarily two-tone, although a lot of the estates seemed to be. In modern money it would be something like an LX - one up from the entry level and with an acceptable level of creature comfort. As Stewart says, the 'Standard' (base) Anglia didnt even have a heater as standard.

The saloon in front of it is actually the higher spec - it's a Super, and would have had the 1200cc engine as standard vice the 997. It has even more chrome - there's a twin strip of it embracing the bodyside 'flash'. It looks like it's Ermine White and Dragoon Red, like my first car

Hasn't the topic of hydraulics using ETH popped up on here recently? Namely, that one of the Warships was allegedly kitted out with some - but not all - of the necessary apparatus proving that such a conversion was not entirely pie-in-the-sky.

 

Dont recall the thread David, but both Brian Haresnape's BR Fleet Survey and Brian Webb's Locomotive Studies for D&C confirm as much - and at a quite early date as well. The loco was last-built D870. As the other David says above, it's not rocket science - the engines were to be uprated in order to power a generator set

As for the Hymeks, original plans were for 300 of the gorgeous beasts That might have included the Northern Division, before its transfer to the LMR appeared on the cards (another interesting 'what if' scenario), and it strikes me they'd have been handy on the Cambrian, although maybe too heavy in the axleloading. Apart from the tendency to standardise on electric transmission, I'd always understood the influx of 37s to South Wales was because a heavier, six-axle loco was more use for unfitted freight work in the Valleys

Gallery 2 top pic is plain green and flat windscreens, taken 1961... http://nicwhe8.freeh...raffordpark.jpg

Ho hum. I have already corrected myself, right here

As I stated in my post:

 

http://nicwhe8.freeh...5705/start.html

 

(Gallery page two, top pic of D5711)

 

Looks like plain green with no wraparound windows to me

 

So it does, my apologies, I was looking at Gallery 1 You could have linked straight to it

Looks like at least 5711 was done before the work at Barrow then, maybe it was a guinea pig

. Does anyone know when the modified cab windows first started appearing - in particular, did any actually run in original plain green with the later 'flat' windows?

Looks like it, would prefer it to have the wraparound ones though....

 

http://nicwhe8.freeh...5705/start.html

 

(Gallery page two, top pic of D5711)

Nice though they are, those are not plain green as per the question but green/SYP. They're also dated 1963, hence no advance on the shot I mentioned, although I've now found a July '62 shot on Colin Marsden's '35 Years of Mainline Diesel Traction'. It's also GSYP but looks very fresh

From the Co-Bo World website, I trust Jim doesnt mind me extracting it for relevance:

The stored examples spent the winter of 1960/61 in store at Trafford Park shed until the Co-Bos were duly returned to Metropolitan Vickers' works at Dukinfield, Manchester to receive modifications and a general overhaul. .. By mid 1961, just two examples were available for traffic!

 

...

 

Whilst undergoing their heavy repairs, another source of annoyance was cured - the wraparound cab windows. Whilst these looked quite stylish and offered good forward views for the traincrew, they were susceptible to dropping out a high speed due to vibration! Bearing in mind that the maximum service speed of the Co-Bos was a relatively modest 75mph, this was quite a feat! This design fault necessitated the wraparound window frames to have new window frames welded inside the originals and a more robust rubber seal installed to hold the now flat window glass in place, a feature clearly visible on D5705.

 

After overhaul, the locomotives were not returned to Derby as expected, but were dispatched en-masse to Furness and West Cumberland where they spent the rest of their service lives pottering about the Cumbrian Coast and Lake District branch lines. The first examples trickled through in early 1962 and the remainder followed by the end of the year.

(my bold). As SYPs were established by that time, it would seem likely that any with rebuilt screens had that treatment

... Does anyone know when the modified cab windows first started appearing - in particular, did any actually run in original plain green with the later 'flat' windows?

Random dip into Mr Haresnape's 'BR Fleet Survey' shows one with flat screens and SYP in 1963; I havent looked any further but it could have happened at first overhaul

How much should it cost then? Quite intrigued seeing as I've just had a practical lesson this very week in R&D/Production costs etc. I'd be interested to see your costings breakdown for completely new tooling of an RTR model.

Wee - ell, they said the 14 should have been the same price as an 08. So this one should be, um, let me see now, as much as half a 25 and half a 31...

Current valuations are iffy as most seem to think it wise to get shot of them because of the so-called imminence of a supposed new model about which there is much speculation

Brilliant

Ahem. From the OP:

I am not necessarily advocating freelance designs but ... extra members of real locomotive classes..

If we allow ourselves to create an imaginary world, then surely we should imagine also that the railway companies built additional stock to serve the line, because all the real vehicles were busy serving the real world.

I see the logic to some extent, but it doesnt completely follow. Increased traffic demands weren't necessarily always catered for in such a linear fashion as a directly corresponding new build, but sometimes by bringing locos out of store or sanctioning additional overhauls on those that might have been otherwise life expired. Or, we could just constrain ourselves to modelling locos that did exist, whilst assuming that the chimeras worked the parts of the system we arent modelling

One thing I dont get too hung up about is getting allocations spot on; if a class was one that was legitimately used in 'my' area, it follows that the effect of 'my' line on overall traffic demands could have led to individual members of it being allocated otherwise than was actually the case

More likely '26 or '36, going by the round buffers and tab catcher!

 

Or '46, which I think was another early blue 'un.

Anyway, while you're on, what does anyone think is the approximate 'colour' for the omnipresent SR four-wheelers?

I'd use several coats of a brown/black mix, washed, drybrushed and stippled and built up steadily and varied in shade, so as to almost but not quite completely obliterate the base livery. They always look overall brown in photos but somehow it doesnt quite translate to a model

There were two WR ones reported in the contemporary 'Railway Magazine' as being done c1968/69; 1927 I can remember fairly reliably cos I saw it (on the evening York - Hull parcels of all things), possibly 1930 although I'm not sure why that one comes to mind.

 

An unusual example of serendipity, I actually found a useful mag clipping without particularly looking and within twelve months of it being relevant Railway Mag April 69, the shot is of 1930 GFYE alongside a Western and the caption states it's one of two on the WR (hence also 1927 above). Reason is said to be to increase visibility at night

I don't think they were pasted Dave - came across two locos (Brush 4s) via Flickr, they had black-on-white headcodes presumably experimental. Afraid at nigh on 2300hrs I'm not going back digging for them at the moment But I shall try and have a look tomorrow, check that D1975 was one of them, and I'm not talking out my posterior.

 

There were two WR ones reported in the contemporary 'Railway Magazine' as being done c1968/69; 1927 I can remember fairly reliably cos I saw it (on the evening York - Hull parcels of all things), possibly 1930 although I'm not sure why that one comes to mind. Similarly 1965 rings a bell, though without checking that sounds LMR-ish and I might be inventing it Dont think I've ever come across 1975 before, but it does look all regularly spaced and intentional rather than a pasted lash-up

It was most likely Liverpool Street but i would have to check the book when I get the chance - I don't have it to hand right now.

It is - 8234 in GFYE with arrows and D prefix painted out, Sept 1970

Which neatly brings us back to my comment about the unusual variety of wagons in the 1968 photo.

Despite a couple of comments we still don't know what the wagons actually contained. There has to be a specific reason for the make up of this train. I just get curious about odd things like that at times.

 

True enough Bernard, and I have to say I share your curiosity

I wonder whether the horse-boxes were being used to convey breeding stock, rather than animals for slaughter? The area was well-known for its pedigree dairy stock,

Sounds reasonable and I think I've heard or read of that arrangement before; in practical terms, I wouldnt have thought there'd be too much difference between a horsebox and a prize cattle van (the latter also being NPCCS rather than goods stock). Again in one of Hendry's wagon books, there's a pic of the converse - a cattle wagon containing horses, which Mr Hendry surmises may be off to the knacker's

Not sure if Stuart P has come over to the Dark Side at this time

He'll be handing in his shortbread-shaped badge if he doesnt

Was the fitted head only a requirement of diesel workings? Photos from a few years earlier with 9Fs and Black 5s don't normally depict this arrangement.

 

Seems reasonable Bernard, given that steam locos also had tenders to augment the brake force and the introduction of brake tenders in many areas to make up for the loss thereof. I cant speak for the northern WCML, but there's also some info in Hendry's first colour wagon book about the Redhill - St Helens sand traffic running with a short fitted head, and you do see similar things in other areas

Edit - only marginally OT, at the end of the footage that starts with the 2x25s on hoppers, there is a green/small yellow GRCW class 100 at Waverley, amongst the push/pulls and thus proving the livery was extant in 1971