Arthur

As I mentioned on Larry's Greenfield thread, I'm loving seeing theses London Midland Region layouts coming together, crackin' stuff Jason. Dunno who weathered that red tank in front of Lancashire Sock but looks like someone just daubed dirty brown paint over it, you'd never see anything like that in real life........

Just a thought Iain, could you use square section styrene section from Evergreen or Plastruct for the legs, possibly as an inner core laminated on the outside to the right size? They're pretty rigid and would provide good support.

Thanks OzzyO, that is a great help to visualise where and how I could use them. Excellent.

Thanks OzzyO, I am reassured knowing that they weren't applied individually!! Seriously, I've never actually seen a sheet of decal rivets, I presumed that they featured lines of rivets, so I was just curious to know how you had used them.

I think we're missing a button, 'like' or 'craftsmanship' seem barely adequate. Just incredible Ron.

I've read of modellers, probably in MRJ, filing six sides on brass rod, to represent bolt heads, before soldering it in. I feel a panic attack coming on just thinking about it.... Nice work on that turntable OzzyO. How do you use those transfer rivets? Not so much applying them (I presume just like any waterslide transfer) but in terms of positioning, spacing and lining up. Do you just slice a strip off, accepting the spacing supplied/available and fix it down ?

Brilliant stuff Philip. As you know, I've an interest in the Walkden system myself having been brought up locally. You've really captured many of the elements here, the brick bridges, the loco shed, canal and wharf, just stunning. Really looking forward to seeing it develop. Is the canal still orange? I know they were talking about 'cleaning' it up, though as it's a natural phenomenon of the area I don't know how.

Agreed, I'm a modeller of the industrial scene, I build etched kits and, yes, would like to see some RTR industrial locos. My main line interests are set in the Manchester area. A Brighton Atlantic has absolutely no part in any of my schemes. Will I buy one, you betcha! Why?, I just like the look of them, 'Showroom Appeal', and I won't be alone.

Brass strip boiler bands?' You migh be better using tape Jason as brass strip bands are often over scale. I built the old MPD kit for the class 27 years ago. An excellent kit, it had quite a bizarre method for adding boiler bands. The nicely turned brass boiler had grooves turned into it and the boiler bands were lengths of plastic microstrip which were glued in. It was an attempt to improve on soldered on bands. Didn't really work, though it resulted in a shallow band, it was still too wide and didn't 'sit down' evenly. I filled the grooves with milliput and just prior to priming it used narrow strips of tape to represent the bands. Smooth, even and thin. I can post a photo of it's of interest, it shows the finished effect of the bands.

C'mon now Debs, we'll have none of that defeatist talk around here.

Did BR specify a particular link size? Link size is not a determining factor in the chains strength, that's down to steel specification, quality of manufacture and diameter of the steel bar used to form the link. Maybe they did specify a particular link size, along with the rating required, but some observations from volume 1 of the Grant & Taylor, BR wagon books, that Brian referenced, suggest there seems to be different sizes of chain in use. Page 98 for example,the chain in the upper photo looks, at least to me, to be a bit lighter than that in the lower? Page 103 lower, scaling by the mans hand, those links must be around 4"? That concurs with OzzyO's recollection. Difficult to be sure, in the absence of definitive information, if it looks right.....

Yes, not that much in it, but the smaller chain for me too.

That looks good to me MIke, is that the Duha load or have you made it from styrene cladding? Either way, it's really captured the look and something a bit different. I would think that one tensioner per chain would be right. Looking at the loading instructions which Jon loaded earlier, my interpretation from the diagram of the bogie bolster at the top of page 18 (PDF) would be that the securing chains should be positioned in line with the bolsters, though I couldn't see it specified in the text. However, on page 563 of this months Backtrack (Sept. 2013) there's a photograph of a J37 at Dundee Tay Bridge. Clearly seen in the foreground is a bogie bolster carrying maybe a dozen, 6" or so, steel sections. Stanchions are fitted but the steel securing chain is over the load between the first and second bolster and strained on lashing points on the solebar. The rest of the wagon is off shot unfortunately. So lashing between bolsters, as on your model, seems to be prototypical. There was some discussion about steel loads on the BCB wagon building thread and Paul posted this photo link; http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbco/h12F45402#h12f45402 You've identified one of the problems with modelling finished steel section loads, even the very largest are actually quite thin, few being even an an inch thick, many less than 1/2". So less than 0.5 mm in 4mm. Even with plate, the heavier it gets, the less use there is for it, and so thick plate accounts for a lower proportion of output. Fortunately, as with your load, it looks like thin section and it works. Anyway, nice job and good to see the section tables being put to practical use.

Mike, Yes, you could estimate it like that however, I think it's mean't to represent Larssen, box section, steel piling. This sort of stuff It has rolled in, interlocking edges, and is driven into the ground to hold back earthworks and is often seen in docks and on canal banks. Cargo Fleet on Teesside held the UK manufacturing rights for many years. I can save you any calculations; Adding to Brian's post, here are some of LSC's standard railway wagon sections, and, prosaically, note the item on the top of the opposite page, bucket handle section. and at the bottom of this page, LSC's 'policy' on custom rolling. It wasn't just the cost of the rolls but also the mill downtime whilst rolls were changed which had to be factored in. Finally, on pipe, Part details of Stewarts & Lloyds welded steel tube/pipe. It shows both wall thickness and weight per linear foot though other wall gauges were available if required. A photo of large section pipe at S&L's Vulcan Works at Tollcross, Glasgow, showing the relatively thin walls.

Mike, Some pages from the Lancashire Steel Corporation section book. Most works tended to concentrate on a certain sector of the industry, LSC’s being wire, whilst offering a range of more ‘standard’ products like joists, various sections, rails and bar. The primary product would be ingots, rolled firstly into blooms, then billets and finally into the section required. Irlam’s ingots were around 16” x 16” x 66”, around 5 tons, typical for a works rolling sections and bar, works rolling plate tended to cast larger, rectangular, ingots. These tables are pretty self explanatory, I’ve included the rail sections rolled for interest. I’ve also added a page showing some of the weird variety of specials which were rolled. With the channels, you’ll see a range of weights quoted. That was because the customer could order a channel of a certain size but with lighter or heavier webs and flanges. From these figures you can probably get a good idea of the weight of most sections, and as 34C says, you can calculate it yourself with steel at 500 lbs/cubic ft. Returning to the Duha load, if they scale out to a 2" thick wall then that should be treated like the cab and tender edges on plastic and whitemetal locos, i.e. way over scale because of the manufacturing process, and would benefit from reaming out the ends to thin them down. No pipe is going to have 2" walls, very expensive and not needed. Even large cast iron pipes didn't have walls that thick. I mentioned the Iraqi supergun, the sections of that did have very thick walls but they were forged, at goodness knows what cost, and were to be bolted together as a giant artillery piece. Not your standard bogie bolster load!

Mike yes, I've got a number of 'section books' from some of the pre BSC steel makers, Dorman Long, Park Gate and Lancashire Steel Corporation. They're essentially product catalogues giving sizes and shapes of steel sections available and, for many, include weights in lbs/ft. They also give steel specifications and other relevant information. I'll scan in a couple of pages and post them up later today with a few accompanying notes. Hopefully they'll be of some use. Arthur

You might just about be alright, the gauge of the pipes will be nothing like the flange thickness. The pipes are rolled and welded up from thin plate, the flanges, cut from heavy plate, cast, or occasionally forged, are much heavier to stand the strain of the bolting together. I rough estimate, for a pipe with a wall thickness of 3/8"' 30" diameter and 40 ft long, is around 5 tons, plus flange. There is, or was, an exception. Remember the Iraqi "super gun", designed by Gerald Bull? The sections were all forged, and even the 'baby' version, pipe walls a couple of inches thick, 13" diameter, a 30' length of that weighed about 20 tons.

Had an email from Hattons saying that my card has been charged and a picking number allocated, so I guess mine will be shortly on it's way.

Is that a commercially available figure Allan, or did you sculpt it from milliput?, it's remarkably lifelike. Looks a little like that fellow who posts here from time to time. Super modelling.

Well, on the subject of old Land Rovers, My1976, ex military, Forward Control 101, doing what it was designed for, towing a heavy load. I've had it since 1999, still with original spec. 3.5 petrol V8, although I fitted a Pertronics electronic ignition and a 'Flamethrower' coil, sourced from the States, which transformed it's starting and running. It used to burn though points every few hundred miles. Like Ian's Series II, it's shifted a few tons of horse manure in it's time too, it still does. It was preceded by a Series III Lightweight which also gave several years good service. Ian and I exchanged a few notes on another thread a while back about these vehicles and about RR Services, in Battersea, who sold ex military stuff through Exchange & Mart.

Thanks for that Brian.

Correct Nick, and not my own area of expertise either, but I think that there were some twins which were essentially singles semi permanently coupled with a drawbar.

Good question Brian, I hadn't noticed that before. I don't know but, just judging by the relative gaps between the wagon bodies, I'd guess it's a single in front of a rake of twins?? What the single is doing there I've no idea!

I've posted this image previously but, taken around 1962, it shows steel section loaded on bolsters at Dorman Longs Teesside works. As you can see, no protection for the steel, even on the narrow flange edge. Steel tube/pipe would generally not have had protection from the chain. The Duha flanged pipe load, from memory, represents a pipe of about 12" diameter?. You aren't going to bend that with a manually tensioned chain. Coated pipe would more likely have had some protection as the coating was relatively soft, I might have some photos of Stewarts & Lloyds coated pipes being loaded, I'll have a look tomorrow.

Did Jack Nelson actually have or build a layout? I know that he built several diaoramas but don't recall anything about a full layout. He was a master of forced perspective, using smaller scale models in the background. His LNWR book is a must have for anybody modelling ex LNWR lines even ino the BR era.