RandyWales

Thanks for explaining it. I think I'll stick with sound chips, even though they are more expensive, because I'd rather drive the loco as I want, or need to, and have the sound follow what the loco is doing automatically, rather than having to drive to match the sound and also have to press buttons on an extra piece of control equipment.

A fair enough reason.

However, it is far harder to explain in words how this method works than it actually is in practice.

On the occasions I have demonstrated this alternative to other modellers, there have been people who have stood there open-mouthed at the simplicity and effectiveness. And cost.

Bear in mind that soundchip sounds are fixed. No matter what you do, it will sound the same.

I can perform the same movement several times with subtle or even major differences.

I'd go as far as to say I could do a blind head to head test with any DCC loco and be confident that I'd win.

There is also the matter of versatility...Chris M has achieved excellent results in N gauge using non-dcc sounds.

I've put this forward as an alternative on the grounds of cost...to explain to people that they don't have to spend mega-money.

You don't even have be an expert in editing sounds....you could even stream sounds direct from Youtube.

Only the other day, a modeller who saw this for the first time said it was his dream to have Sound in his radio controlled fleet - he was absolutely over the moon to think he could do it so cheaply.

Randall

I have just found this topic and have read through it. I won't pretend to understand anything of the technical side of it but if there is no connection between sound and motion in the loco, does this mean that as you accelerate the loco with your normal DC or DCC controller you also have to press a key on the ipad to give a sound to match? And the same with slowing down, stopping etc?

You are more or less correct...but I tend to flip what you've said on it's head and start the sound before adjusting the controller.

I'll try to explain...(my Bluetooth speakers are onboard so it's similar to a soundchipped loco).

On my end to end 7mm layout, I don't need sounds of a loco/train running at high speed (althouugh I do have sounds compatible with high speed running for use at the club).

I've therefore concentrated on creating arrival and departure sounds along with sounds for when the loco is stationary.

I also have many complimentary sounds - which can be played anytime - horn or whistle, flange squeal or brake sounds such as the release of air, or sleeper creak etc. These sounds are assigned to individual buttons and vary insomuch they can be triggered for 'play-to-end' or 'looped'.

Nowadays, I create dedicated short soundtracks for the particular movement I want to perform.

For example, I have edited a soundtrack that lasts for the time it takes for the loco/train to exit the scenic section and reach the fiddle yard (with an appropriately long ACTUAL fade - with maybe a horn sound in the distance).

Thus....

Loco is idling away merrily...this sound is looped.

The appropriate soundtrack will always start with a short section of the loco idling so the transition is seemless.

So assume the loco is idling...I start the move by pressing the button for the soundtrack I want to play, and listen for the engine sound to change. I don't increase the controller yet...I maybe press a second button to trigger the horn, and a third button to trigger the brake release (Pedants could incorporate these into a single button). I then wait until the power kicks in before starting to increase the controller setting to start the model loco moving. On the real thing, there is always a delay between the driver applying power and the loco starting to move...I replicate this whenever possible. The soundtrack goes through it's power thrash and I rarely have to change the controller setting in the short distance that consists the scenic section of the layout.

For movements that don't exit the scenic section, I have edited sounds that mimic the engine dropping to idle from several different engine speeds so I wait for the engine speed to drop and simply trigger the ’engine idle' sound button.

The loco is still moving at your predetermined speed setting and I only change the controller when bringing the loco to a halt.

It is all pretty intuitive to be honest.

For an arrival, the loco is generally idling at low tickover speed anyway, so I wait until the loco is nearly at the point where I want to stop it, and I simply press the 'Brake sound' button. I turn down the controller to bring the loco to a stop in sync with the brake application.

It really is that simple.

One other thing to be aware of...

Bluetooth audio devices can only be paired with a single control device.

Basically, one engine in steam.

I could also use SWMBO's iPad running a second copy of Soundbyte if necessary.

However, I sometimes use a cheap, old phone with bluetooth capability that only has an app with a couple of buttons to playback idling sounds for a stationary loco in the yard.

Finally, the sounds are high quality through good speakers - a far cheaper alternative to mega-expensive (and to my mind inferior-sounding) soundchips, especially in 7mm.

I have installed bluetooth into a 4mm loco as seen earlier in the thread - more of a challenge admittedly.

That's why I prefer running 4mm trains in sync with soundtracks played back through OFFBOARD speakers.

I hope that helps....it's taken a lot longer to put into words..

Randall

Hi Randall,

  Only just noticed your last post in this thread. As you know, I use a pc based sampler for my train sounds which got me thinking after reading yours above, if something similar would be available as an app for iphone/ipad. Came up with this which might just be what you are looking for.

 

http://appcrawlr.com/ios/ipro-djsampler#authors-description

 

 

I think it will give you more control over sounds and eliminate any audible gaps. Its free so worth a try.

 

Clickertyclack

Hi CC...

I downloaded the iPro.DJsampler and gave it a bit of a test.

Unfortunately, it's not really suitable for my needs besides being fairly complex for this form of use.

You did prompt me, however, to search the Apple Store for similar apps which despite some promising leads I drew a blank.

However, I'm still very happy using Soundbyte for now.

There are gurglings of interest in Bluetooth sound on the Modern O Gauge Facebook group (membership has to be approved by the Admin).

It would appear that it's perfect for using in Radio Controlled locos.

Randall

Yes this is the only photo I've taken so far and I'll get it right way round when back on a computer

Michaelimage.jpeg

Hi...

Is it possible to order the 21t hopper yet?

What livery options will you be offering?

Thanks

Randall

Hi Paul what have you had for the last 2 years ? The Hymek ? ask Laurie @ JLTRT for the air horns, and buffers and buffer detailing, see Steve Fay's threads, well worth the money

Best regards

Craig

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/119854-precision-labels-3d-printed-class-37-finescale-air-horns/

I've had a great day at Monk's Gate today, mostly making various crates, boxes, and a few sacks. Oh, and a suspicious looking crate with straw sticking out of it...I imagine some piece of garden statuary inside...

I reckon I'm about a third of the way there with the amount of crates etc required but it's these details that really make it come alive. If anyone knows a good source of figures to populate a scene such as this, I would be very interested.

Cheers, Richard

Hi Richard...

Stunning modelling....every one of those images would stand proud in the How Realistic thread.

Randall

Hi Chris...

The Castle footage is great...thanks for posting.

I've also checked out Sound Cue on the app store....

Seems to be more limited in scope than Soundbyte although if it does all you need then great.

I'm still looking for an app with which I can set up playlists - a few can - but what I need is an app that can crossfade playlisted sounds.

The ones I've found have an audible gap of about .5 sec before the next track starts.

I am trying to achieve seemless layering of samples so I can set up a playlist that can handle (for example) idle-start-accelerate-level off by touching a single button. Then a second button to play samples for slow down to idle and stop.

I can do it manually in Soundbyte but if I could find an app to do it automatically then the possibilites are limitless.

I have set up single buttons which play back tracks I have recorded from source samples but it takes a lot of work in Audacity.

My objective is to set up playlists for shunting and and arrivals/departures rather than continuous runs like yours.

I'm happy enough at the moment because it is sooooo cheap!

For anyone else reading this for the first time, I do have to control sounds and movement separately but it's easy...

Randall

I'm afraid that all the sounds on my South Wales valleys 1950s blt are either in my head or actual chuff chuff noises that I make (nobody is around to see, I mean hear, me). I am happy with the sound of wheels over rail joints, and have made indentations in the rails at 40 or 60 foot intervals as appropriate, chuff chuff my locos (an advantage of steam locos is that you get chance to catch your breath), and the rest, the stream chuckling away to itself, the clanking of the colliery overhead ropeway buckets in the background, and the incessant, relentless, interminable Welsh non-conformist rain, not heavy but fine, penetrating, soaking, and all-pervading, spreading gloom and misery like a Temperance preacher, gurgling in drains and gutters, and drip, drip, dripping everywhere while the birds are too depressed to sing, remains in my consciousness from childhood visits to relatives in Tonypandy and Ynyshir. It seemed to be a particular sort of 1950s rain that you don't get any more, even in the Valleys.

 

I am too old and set in my ways, not to mention poor, for DCC to be a consideration, but a background recording of the above noises, perhaps with some signal box bells and the clank of signals being pulled off or returned to danger after a train has left, would improve the ambience; the layout lives in a bedroom which already has a bluetooth speaker in it so I can listen to music in bed from my phone without having to pollute my hearing with the phone's stupid, pointless, tinny little squeaky speakers. I could record the signalbox noises and signals at a preserved railway, and presumably some sort of conveyor belt machinery would be ok for the buckets, particularly if it squeaked a bit. Rain is available almost on demand in South Wales, but the right combination of drains and downpipes playing in minor chords needs to be found...

Are you related to our glorious poet Dylan Thomas by any chance?

You should subsidise your modelling by giving recitals.

Randall

Thanks Michael...

Looks excellent....

I have vivid memories of long rakes of rusty rebodied 21tonners being hauled through Cardiff General in the days before air-braked HAA's. I presume you'll have a couple on display at Doncaster in a couple of weeks?

Randall

I've got as far as painting the grey on the 21T coal hopper and have made complete set of the LMS Salmon bogie ready to send away to the casters (made resin copies of the bogie sides using a 2-part mould) Fingers crossed that I'll pick up the bogies at the Larger Scale show. We are also down for having a table there.IMG_0457.JPG

 

Michael

Do you have any images of a finished 21tonner yet.?..

Randall

Hi Chris...

Are you using just a single speaker?

I'd consider using a pair and taking advantage of recordings that are in stereo and have the sound follow the train through the layout.

You've hit the nail on the head with regards to editing your soundfiles to take the same length of time as it takes for each train to pass through the visible section of the layout....then running the train at approximately the right speed so that you get the Doppler effect as the train passes your viewing point. With a few judiciuos edits, you could also have similar tracks that allow you to vary your viewing position ie...the Doppler shift comes earlier or later in the scene.

How have you been triggering your sounds on your iPhone? Reading your OP it seems you are just playing a track like you would a song.

I suggest (unless you've already done so) looking at the Soundbyte app.

You be able to save all your soundtracks with dedicated buttons (hundreds if you want) and trigger them at will.

You can assign buttons to whistles and horns, coach and wagon sounds, even countryside effects etc etc

It's a polyphonic app meaning you can play many different sounds at the same time.

Randall

Chris...

Hope you don't mind me reposting your links embedded like this...

Hi Chris...

Thanks for posting here too...Superb videos and far better than my feeble attempts to get the message across about this alternative to DCC sound.

I must also say that you've also motivated me to get off my ar5e and sell all my 4mm stock and replace it with N gauge.

The sight and sound of those Hydraulics powering through is inspirational.

You could possibly find suitable sounds of locos/trains drawing to a halt at the signal box, and then powering away again.

It is so easy to control sound and movement separately in this context.

Randall

This won't be everyones "cup of tea" but hopefully it will be of interest to some. I have been playing around with sound clips on mp3 files to add sound to my railway. I know how long each train takes to pass through my scenic section on my N gauge layout and have used an mp3 editor app to get some sound clips that are just the right length for the passing trains. I then dropped these clips onto my phone and connected it to a big speaker under the layout. The phone I was filming with picked up much more of the model loco sound than you hear when watching but nevertheless the video gives you the gist of it. It needs to be played through big speakers.

 

Ok this is not a substitute for  DCC sound; it is not as convenient or as well matched to loco movements. It does however have some advantages, especially for N. First it is a good deep sound, with a more powerful speaker I have managed to get the floor vibrating (I don't think this was good for the speaker or relationships with others in the vicinity). Second you get a whole train sound, not just the loco. Third, because I have to press a button at the right time I don't play sound all of the time. This kind of makes it more special when I do.

 

https://youtu.be/RziX8qmiPiY

Hi Chris....

Certainly my cup of tea....we shouldn't think of this method as a 'substitute-for' but an 'alternative' to DCC sound.

Mind you, I think it's far superior in terms of quality.

Randall

Surely the sound quality will have a great deal more to do with the speaker size and DCC or BT is just a delivery system. Both will presumably use a digital sound file which will vary in quality depending on the way they're put together. The sound on the video will vary with the quality of the recording equipment used - again nothing to do with DCC v BT. I still don't get it.

Dave

Hi Dave...

DCC sound quality is constrained by the compression necessary to store samples on the chip. Lots of the harmonics are lost.

Sending quality uncompressed (in this context) sounds (even through tiny speakers) via bluetooth is much better.

Phill uses Radio Control/battery power so he's happy to have a sound system that doesn't rely on track power.

Lastly, it can cost less than £15 per loco.

Huge benefits, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Randall

Here's a short film of Druid in action with her Bluetooth sound system for Randall & anyone else who would like to see it 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD4j4dHnw8Y

Thanks Phill...

I'm overjoyed to see Druid wending her short freight through such a superb setting complimented by bluetooth sound.

I hope others will be attracted to trying it for themselves.

Randall

Hi Randall

 

Druid certainly was making sweet Maybach Music via Bluetooth , as was D7022  today   ......no video yet, but I will take some for you when I get chance 

Thanks Phill.....because you and your layout are so highly thought of, anything you do will demonstrate to many more people than I could reach that very cheap, decent high quality sound is achieveable without relying on soundchips.

I can't wait!

Randall

....Druid has in fact just returned from testing new trackwork & permanent way on the branch line.........

 

1-20170430_140636.jpg

Have you shot any videos of Druid's test runs around the new alignment...especially sending forth powerful reverberations via Bluetooth?

Randall

Hi Giles...

I'd like to go on the waiting list...two sets, please.

Randall

Edit: post deleted

Hi Randall

I am in the process of getting an O gauge Heljan class 37 converted to RC , the Heljan motors are gone and two more efficient motors are going in .

I always imagined having sound as well , i like your idea of using a tablet and bluetooth but am i right that you have given up trying to run the sound in conjuction with the RC and doing away with the bluetooth ?

Cheers

Paul

 

Personally, I don't use Radio Control...Phill Dyson (Onslaught 832) is taking things forward in that domain.

A member who shares my outlook on better quality, low cost loco sound (Clickertyclack) found a bluetooth module (image below) costing £3 on eBay that doesn't need a dedicated LiPo battery to power it.

I am using DCC track power, and my preference is to eliminate the LiPo battery from the equation - to get rid of the need to recharge it, and also to simplify installation.

I have recently installed the module in such a way that it takes power from a function output of a DCC decoder onboard the loco.

I have a feeling that RC users could do the same thing and use the module to take power from the main drive battery rather than having a separate dedicated power supply.

If you can find a way to take a spur off the drive battery and reduce the spur voltage to 5v, then you are in business.

I use a single component the achieve this - a 15v to 5v voltage regulator costing less than £1.

Randall

Hi Phill...

Having always been in awe of your garden railway (paying especial homage to the images you've posted here over time, and the videos you've posted on Youtube), I must heap even more profuse quantities of admiration your way....These latest images project a lovely mature garden that would be the pride of anyone, regardless of the superb model railway you've superimposed upon it. Your garden and the layout it contains are the summit of inspiration.

Randall

Thanks for my first reply Randall!! Not hiding intentionally, just tends to be a lonely hobby sometimes...

I tend to agree that modelling can be a solitary pastime, unless you are a member of a club,.

However, there are lots of friendly people on here who will be anxious to hear all about how you model to such a realistic and convincing standard.

Randall

Hi all, I have lurked on rmweb for a while but thought it about time I joined in, so here goes. I have been planning to build a model railway for about 30 years, but for various constraints (time, money, space) have just begun, having now got into my 50s. I still have some space constraints but the layout is in a specially adapted shed (aka man cave). Total viewing length is only 8' with a 2'6" traverser at one end. I don't pretend it's in any way a prototypical layout, more a series of views/details/ structures that appeals to me. I love detail but not to follow it slavishly at the expense of actually getting enjoyment out of it. It is I guess primarily a stage set to enjoy my rolling stock. It is based very loosely on the Midland as it encroached into the London docks around Poplar c1907 for instance. Nice and grimy and confined.

Wow!

First postings generally tend to be a bit of bare track and a ready-to-run loco with some wagons.

Mightily impressed..where have you been hiding?

Randall

Hi Brian...

Congratulations for the superb article in the current Model Rail (issue 233).

Rosamund Street has been a favourite of mine since the appearance at the Swansea show in October.

Aside from the attraction my favoured Corporate Blue era, I absolutely love the way the buildings dominate the scene.

Randall