RandyWales

 

Any sound chips going to do this anytime soon-  - rumbling wagons and so forth, in the first video, once the loco has gone past, you don't hear it above the wagon noise. Notice the atmospheric effects - wind causing sound to fade and recover. Yet more buttons for you....

 

Best wishes,

Ray

Sound decoder development does seem to have halted, doesn't it?...(is that too harsh?..maybe not)....

I mentioned earlier, the solution is to increase memory and rewrite the project compilation software....

BTW....I now fade the loco sounds and increase the rumbling/railsounds as per your comment....

Also...

Don't discount using intact sound tracks which come complete with your 'atmospheric effects'....

Something I am prepared to discount....synthesised sounds.... far too complex and more likely to result in something that resembles a demented wasp...

Sorry....

Randall

I'm not shooting, but I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with the audio sampling rate comment.  It has to be at least double the highest frequency you are trying to reproduce, or it loses every thing above half sampling frequency completely.

 

In my case, I actually did run a direct cable from the sound chip into a very good 100 Watt stereo amp and a pair of very accurate wide spectrum 100 W speakers. They deafened the warehouse as though we we standing next to the actual loco. The HF was there, but the bass was still well below par in my opinion. So there may be some other LF filtering in the systems somewhere.

 

Andy

Sorry for the ambiguity...the Disagree button should be banned because it courts controversy.

Believe me, I accidentally pressed it last week as I was scrolling through a thread and it couldn't have been in a more inappropriate posting .....It appeared I was making terse comment about another member's spouse...

I am by no means an audiophile, but I totally agree with you on the limitations imposed on the dynamics of sound produced by small speakers.

My point was that within these limitations we don't necessarily have to accept what we are told by those who could be laying the blame for poor quality sound at the wrong door.

Samples from a quality soundtrack played through small speakers sound much better than the equivalent sounds that are output from a sound decoder.

I don't know what sound decoder you used in your test, but I'd bet you'd be much more impressed if you played a high quality soundtrack through those 100watt speakers.

I think that playing a sound decoder's output through 100watt speakers is  possibly unreasonable because we are not dealing with sound on that scale.

Setting aside the matter of frequency loss, it's not all about volume....

It's about making the most of the constraints that are imposed on us.

Randall

Which Bluetooth speakers would you recommend for 4mm scale?

It's the Bluetooth module you need to consider....

Fourmil users would probably need to source the tiny Bluetooth devices used for earpieces, and then add a small amplifier to boost the signal into the speakers...

It would still be far cheaper than fitting expensive sound decoders.

As I said, anyone with the inclination and resourcefulness could do it, no doubt.

(Hopefully, they would then inform members of their methods.....)

Bear in mind that this method could also be used with speakers that are not mounted on the locomotive, but around the layout.

Not quite as realistic, possibly but nevertheless cheap and easy.

I'm no expert...I'm making it up as I go....

Randall

Hi again....

Here's another video example of the SoundByte iPad method of playing sounds through the onboard Bluetooth speakers that will be mounted in my 7mm fleet.

This one is a MetCam DMU recorded on the NYMR and made available under the Creative Commons licence by RailwaySounds http://www.railwaysounds.co.uk

The sounds are much better in 'real life' through the VEHO BT360 M3 speaker shown in earlier posts.

Youtube doesn't really do it justice.

I've no doubt that anyone with the inclination could make this work in 4mm...and the samples are of much higher quality than can be stored on a sound decoder...even played back through speakers used for 4mm scale.

Randall

OK so I made a balls up on the back scene.

I glued The slaters sheets in place and the following day you can see the lumps and bumps every where!!

So I've just ordered some more sheets, next time I will smooth out PVA and weight the sheets down instead of using UHU

Live and learn!!

PVA may cause issues too....peeling over time...

You may have more luck using strong double-sided sticky tape...

I've used it to stick mine to foamboard and mdf with absolutely no problems.

Randall

Hi again...

For personal reasons, I intended ducking out for a while...

However, a spare moment and a Google Search led me to this: (please take the time to read the whole thread)...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56414-dcc-steam-locomotive-sound/

Seems I've not been far off the mark in any of my criticisms then?

Many of my points about the poor quality of DCC sound, and my attempts to find an alternative (which have been be-littled by some), have now come home to roost....

RMweb has a long memory.....

Randall

That video just about sums up the problem!

I really feel for those who have spent time and money recording top quality audio samples only to suffer the loss in quality that existing sound decoders impose...must be very frustrating.

I've spent the afternoon playing around with various freely obtainable soundtrack samples, cutting bits here and there and playing them back through my Heljan Class 37's onboard Bluetooth speaker using the SoundByte iPad application.

Being a bit of a loon (only a bit?), I also played back several STEAM tracks through the Class 37 speakers simply to see if the sounds were affected by being the speaker being enclosed in a confined space.

I needn't have worried....the sounds were excellent.

Quality audio via Bluetooth is...convincing...very convincing.

Sorry, people....anyone who thinks onboard Bluetooth Audio Streaming, especially in 7mm scale, isn't worth a look is very mistaken...

Yes, there's the occasional drop-out...but it costs less than £15 per loco for goodness sake!

Has anyone else out there started experimenting?

Anyone care to shoot me down?

Randall

Hi again....

I wasn't my intention to have a rant and then leave it up in the air without follow-up, but the birth of our first grandson changed things....

So....

How on earth does overlaying the sound of a Youtube video with a soundtrack have anything to do with the running of trains around a layout?

There is a reason behind this ludicrous notion....

The eyes see a steam train....the ears hear a steam train...the brain makes the connection regardless of whether there is close synchronisation between the rotation of the wheels and the chuffs....

It is extremely difficult to get an accurate representation of a steam loco programmed onto a sound decoder.

Slicing and dicing the complex sounds of a steamer is next to impossible.

So why bother?

Rather than programming a composite of sounds trying to cover the many different speed steps, why not fill up the available memory on a soundchip using an extended sample taken from a real soundtrack - a single loop lasting fifteen seconds or so....

I'm sure most modellers who love 'watching their trains go by' would jump at the chance to have authentic sounds of a real steam train rather than rubbish composite samples that sound toylike.

Who would care if acceleration and deceleration steps were excluded if the train sounds just like the real thing as it runs past between scenic breaks.

This brings me to speakers...

My tests with Bluetooth Audio Streaming have highlighted the fact that playback of a soundtrack through a typical 4mm speaker sounds far better than soundchip-advocates would have you believe.

The real reason for poor sounds from a soundchip is the fact that the samples are compressed by the software used to build the project long before the sounds are loaded into a soundchip itself.

Sound samples are data. One's and zero's. The chip doesn't care.

If the software used to create soundchip projects was modified to save the data in it's original sample size, the quality playing through your small speakers would be infinitely better.

To repeat....I have played quality samples through tiny speakers using SoundByte, so the proof is there.

For 4mm, it's far better than you get using existing techniques using compressed sounds.

Correspondingly, because the same compression technology is used in 7mm, if you fed soundchip output through a BOSE speaker, it would still sound rubbish.

I am NOT against sound decoders....far from it.

They can yet be of a standard that we deserve for the price we are expected to pay.

If the manufacturers rewrite their compilation software, and the next generation of chips have bigger memory, then they'll no longer have to try to lay the blame on the speaker.

Randall

Hi again...

I've been watching several Youtube videos of superb quality 7mm steam locomotives with soundchip sounds...

The owners have obviously spent mega bucks on their models, but they are REALLY BADLY let down by sounds that are an ABSOLUTE JOKE!

Why are people happy with such rubbish?

There needs to be an official inquiry!

I then played a ”REAL" soundtrack (nb. NOT synthesised....) overlaid across the same videos, and it was a totally convincing portrayal.

Using SoundByte (£1.99), I then played the same track through the small Bluetooth speaker that cost £11.99 in Sainsburys...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80412-cheap-superior-quality-onboard-sound-for-7mm/&do=findComment&comment=1422014

'Twas even better!

To blame the speakers is a gross mis-representation of the truth.

Uncompressed sounds through half-decent speakers, however presented....HELLO......GO FIGURE!

Randall

Hi Paul...

Just discovered Parcels Point and have done a whirlwind zip through the thread...and even then you're modelling much too fast for me to keep up....

Looking forward to seeing this at a show near me in August?

You are quickly becoming a must-go-see modeller....

I suspect this started off as a casual project....

Why not ask Andy Y to move it into the Layouts thread...you'll get many more appreciative viewers there!

Randall

 

.....that is done, then I think there will be a need, at least to convince me of some sort of 'realism', to adjust the volume on the fly, depending on my position and that of the loco - automatically.

 

Hi Ray....

I'm beginnning to understand where you are coming from on this....

When I saw my first sound-equipped diesel (BR Class 25) at Howes, I was immediately put off by the fact that the volume was too loud, and too constant over distance.

The loco ran away to the end of a long shelf in the shop, and the volume didn't recede with the distance.

This put me off soundchipped locos for a long time.

I eventually bought a Bachmann Class37 and was able to partially overcome this shortcoming on my loft layout due to natural sound baffles in the room.

With regard to automatically adjusting volume levels to compenstate for changes in distance, Bluetooth has an inbuilt 'signal' that can report the devices' proximity to other devices, and thereby theoretically control some software that would adjust volume.

Randall

Hi Randall,

 

Thanks for the link, I'll poke around on there. This could get quite interesting, in an armchair modelling sort of way    . I'd need a camera located in the ceiling with a fisheye lens, then software to recognise the top of my head, and the locos, then software to calculate the distances and adjust the sounds accordingly. Then, it wouldn't need speakers in the loco - probably normal stereo would do. Apart from the software, the total hardware cost would still be less than a single sound chip.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Hi Ray...

Totally agree with your quip about overpriced sound chips...

There are some very clever people around, so I won't go as far as to say your idea can't become reality.

However, the lens in the sky may be dazzled by reflections off the solar panel on the back of my bonce...

So, why not a variation on car reversing proximity sensors?

Seriously though, there are those among us with the requisite expertise who can massage / mix sounds with effects like reverb and echo to push even further towards your ideal.

Maybe it's because the loco sounds are too 'dry' in isolation, and need to be mixed with background atmospheric ambience to give a more natural aural experience.

Getting way out of my depth now though....

Randall

Hi Randall,

 

I have to get my head around what it is that I don't like about the sound. I think it is related to the fact that, say 5inch gauge live steam, does not sound like full size steam loco's, and 7mm scale would never sound like full size. I think it is how I perceive the model. Now, if I look at a video, or a pc simulator with a similar size to the model, then the sound seems fine - it's how the model and media is interpreted.

 

It may be some time before I can delve further into this, but I think it is also related to the fact that when we are, say, three foot from the model, then in full size that is more or less equivalent to 130ft. The inverse square law applies to sound attenuation (ignoring reflections and absorption), but the attenuation is also proportional to the square of the frequency.  However that is in real air, over 130ft, say, so ideally we need some other density of air to give the same effect over our distance of 3ft. I will most likely be passing the sounds through a filter of some sort to get to something that suits me, but whatever we do, we can't scale nature. Taking a more obvious example wrt scaling of nature - if you scale down the 'gloss' of a full size car to 7mm scale, it would be far too shiny, so we paint them in something that looks right, and rough surfaces e.g. brickwork, at true scale would be more or less smooth, but mortar joints are often exaggerated (and it is not related to how the model looks in a photo)..

 

Now, for diesel loco sound, the effect of scaling is not so noticeable to me, partly due to the fact that visually there is not so much going on and the sound is more of a vibration/rattle compared to distinct blasts.  I'm also looking for a puff of steam/smoke for every chuff of a model steam loco, and even with a perfect steam/smoke generator (the current ones are pretty weedy imnsho) it would still be necessary to put in an appropriate delay, due to the speed of light being a bit faster than the speed of sound (about 12mS delay between  3 ft and 130ft for sound, and too small to be any concern for light ). So far, all steam loco model sounds are worse than no sound for me - I guess a bit like watching a silent movie with a good story compared to one with poorly dubbed sound.

 

It is not that complicated, I'd just want to tweak the sounds so they sounded right to me, at the scale distance I will be, and I'm not sure when I will get around to doing that.

 

However, I think I may take the track you mention, and see if I can massage it into something more acceptable to me, at a scale 130ft away.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray.

Hi Ray....

Everything we do modelwise has to be a compromise, doesn't it?

Sounds through a chip are made up of tiny samples stitched together.

Playback of a soundtrack through an onboard speaker is infinitely better, given all the compromises.

If you look at the Railway Sounds website, you will see that the sounds were recorded using professional techniques (there is a page dedicated to How we Dunnit). There is a reference to the best recording distance-from-the-subject and they echo what you are saying.

Maybe sampling those specific sounds will give you better results.

Randall

Hi,

 

Today I bought a blue-tooth speaker from Asda - cost me £10.00. Taking it apart is easy. The speaker is about 35mm diameter, the battery 3.5V/500mA, the circular pcb is probably 45mm diameter - I put it together again, without writing down the dimensions. It is not stereo, but is small enough to fit in 7mm loco. Not being much of a user of blue-tooth, I found it a bit of a faff getting the sound drivers for it, and setting it up to play sound from a w7 pc, but now working fine. If I get interested in this, I will most likely develop my own software, I want the sound to be related to what the loco is doing, without having to fiddle with a separate sound controller.

 

I have a problem with the concept of scale in sound, in particular with steam locos. A 7mm scale exhaust does not make the same sound as a full size one, and I haven't scale ears, the volume also needs adjusting to suit the distance I am from the loco. Too much to think about

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

Hi Ray....

I'm really glad someone else has decided to give Bluetooth Audio Streaming a try.... The more tests that are carried out, and the more appraisals that are reported the better.

I agree that interfaced sound and motion control is important (and still my objective) but the SoundCart method is offered as a viable alternative for those who are interested.

I am piping steam sounds through my BT speakers as I type and I am very impressed. I must admit, in my mind's eye, it seems as if there is a scale steamer simmering away less than 36 inches from my seat.

Is it possible that your 'scale sound' problem is due to the nature of the sounds you are using.

As an example, have a listen to this

<http://www.railwaysounds.co.uk/nymr/nymrvintage/btp/b9.mp3>

Play it through your BT speaker (placed about 36 inches away).

I certainly have no problem with listening for 'scale sound'....

I don't think volume plays a part...it's the quality that counts, and these are excellent.

(The tracks on the Railway Sounds site come under the Creative Commons Licence that I spoke of...)

Randall

Well, the progress so far is that I've managed to write a piece of software to read the speed  and direction display from Microsoft Train Simulator (in time I will probably try it with other sims,but I have my layout and most of my stock in MSTS!), and by using some of the MERG CBUS kits, converted it to eight on/off outputs (7 for speed and one for direction), thence to a 0-3V variable voltage. At the moment I'm in the middle of amplifying that and adding a feedback component.

 

When that's done, there will need to be some calibration of the software to suit the performance characteristics of the different locos.

Seems as if this is a rather unique take on the subject of interfacing sound and motion control.

I've (seen and) heard some of the more recent MSTS offerings (very impressed indeed), so when you do achieve your objective, please come back and tell us more.

Randall

Hi again...

Here is a quick run down on the SoundByte Cart iPad app....others Cart apps are very similar in operation.

Press any button on the active Cart for about a second, and the Settings screen (below) is displayed.

You select the Sound file to be associated with the button from your iPad Sounds Library.

The Help file explains in detail what the relevant setting does...

Briefly...

Each button has a volume control that is set here...relative to the Master volume setting.

Cart Pan sets the position in the sound field where this sound should be located.

Cart Rate controls playback rate (ie. faster or slower) Probably not suitable for our purposes.

Button colour and Text size are self evident.

Cut In time determines where the Start Point for playback in the associated sample is located (if required).

Probably the most important setting is Looping Count... (in seconds).

A high number in this setting will also ensure that a Looped sound is not Faded when other buttons are pressed.

Fade time is important....sample crossover is smoother if this is used properly.

It also controls the Master fade control....used in association with the Fade In Playback and Fade Out Playback settings. Using these settings, the sounds get louder and softer as the train enters or leaves the layout.

The other important button is Touch Fades Other Carts....it fades the sound of the PRECEDING button, and triggers THIS button's playback....makes for smoother transitions.

Not much more really.....experiment for yourselves...

Randall

Another option I've been working on for a while - run a train simulator on the computer, with the layout set up as a route and feed the simulator's speed to the layout as  the train speed.

 

The system I've been setting up is DC, so a lot of the development going in has been on building a computerised DC controller, but no reason why it shouldn't be done as DCC using an existing interface to the track.

 

An interesting option....and you mention 'development'....maybe you could update on progress?

Randall

Hello Randall,

Interesting thread. I think for N gauge (my area of interest) this has definite applications.

So assuming I am interested in this and I install the cart app where do I get the sounds from? Can I just harvest suitable ones from, say, You Tube?

 

Hi Ben....

Maybe this could be THE method for triggering sounds for 2mm scale...

Most of these apps use the .wav file format (many other formats too).

There are suitable sounds out on the web under the Creative Commons licence which grants you the right to use them for non-commercial use.

You may need to slice'n'dice them using a program like Audacity (open source) to provide a suitable bank of sounds.

Randall

 I've often thought that for sound to be convincing it needs to be far more than the individual loco. You really need the whole soundscape of the railway scene you're depicting including wagon wheels squealing, the ringing and rumbling of wagons being shunted, station announcements, doors slamming, the clackety clack of coaches as they pass following the loco and all of this with the appropriate perspective for the position the viewer is assumed to be.

 

Will we need a sound supervisor as well as a layout operator at exhibitions or do you just create all the sounds for an operating session and then run the trains in sync with the "music" ?

 

Hi David....

I wholeheartedly agree with your opening paragraph...

And both your ideas 'sound' good to me....

As well as an operator controlling the trains, a Fireman/Secondman could control the sound....maybe it would give Club Members more collaborative tasks at exhibitions / club nights....

Randall

Hi again...

Making a start then....

The application genre is called a 'Cart Machine' (with it's history in Radio Production apparently).... and was originally hardware-based, where the sounds were held on CART-ridges.

'Carts' are intended for use by DJ's, Radio and Podcast producers and Stadium 'goal celebration' soundbites amongst other things.

Available in many guises on Tablet and Smartphone, there are also versions available on Windows, Mac, (probably Linux too) etc etc...

I'll be discussing some of the apps available on the iPad, (plus iPod and iPhone), and as far as I'm aware, there are many equivalents for Andriod devices.

Basically, the fact that these apps are available on TouchScreen devices such as tablets and phones, makes this a compact and convenient means of triggering sounds for the layout.

The cost can vary, but most apps are priced at few £pounds.

I know people are going to say the hardware (tablet or phone) is a big expense to consider.

That's fair enough, but I've never used a soundchip to book a holiday.

Down to the nitty-gritty....

The iPad app with the greatest scope was SoundByte by BlackCat Systems (£1.99) - that's the one I used in the videos...not the prettiest to look at, but it had capabilities that the others did not.

By the way...I'm not proud of the standard of my video demonstrations...they were cobbled together in very short order....they are poor and they don't do justice to this method.

Sound samples are assigned to buttons, and the buttons can be assigned different functions, such as looping.

Most Sound Boards (as they are also known), are polyphonic (can play several sounds simultaneously)

With SoundByte, sounds can also be panned.

With stereo speakers, you can pan the sound of an idle loco standing in a siding to the left, with another different loco standing to the right. You can then pan a train travelling through the scene.

And if you assign a button to the sound of your signal cabin's bells, that can be panned wherever in between. Each sample button has it's own volume control.

Sounds can also be faded over time, so the train can still be heard in the distance even though it's stopped in the fiddleyard.

As demonstrated in the Steam Video, you can trigger the sounds of the carriages or wagons squealing through your pointwork, or the clickclack over the railjoints.

As well as using offboard speakers for ambient sounds, I will also be using Bluetooth Audio Streaming direct from my iPad to the onboard speakers for my 7mm fleet.

The sound quality alone leaves chips in the dust.

I'll close for now with a final thought...

It will be obvious there is no connection between Sound and Motion.

You therefore have to drive the train to match the sounds that you hear.

That may not seem attractive and a massive pitfall to many, but that's not how it feels...

Besides, many chip programmers have you do exactly the same by pressing function buttons.

You have a tremendous amount of control over the sounds produced, and on a small layout, which may not justify expenditure on soundchips, this is a worthy option.

Randall...

Hi again....

Here's another one....

With refinement, I think it'll sound brill on my layout...

I'll be streaming the sounds via Bluetooth to onboard speakers.

Ideal for dirt cheap 7mm sound?

Randall

....if they could be digitised, and added to a sound program like the one you're using here....

 

Hi Marc....

I'm still wondering what direction this could be heading in...

For example, the Steam Train was just a four second sample...

Many options there then....

I think it may also be suitable for use with full length soundtrack samples - say for a Terminus to Fiddleyard.

I'm still experimenting...

It's obviously not going to suit every application on every layout, but it could fill a big void.

It could also be used to compliment DCC soundchips, although the difference in sound quality might be too apparent.

I'll exlain how it all works when I get my head around the options.

Randall

Here you go then.....hope you like it.....

The sounds of the train are panned from left to right at each step, although it's hard to tell in a Youtube video.

Take it from me....it sounds really good.

The speakers are cheapo's from a bargain shop, so they don't really do it justice.

I'll tell all later....

Randall

Hi again...

Some members will be aware that I have been a keen participant in the Cheaper and Better DCC Sound thread.

Driven predominantly by my personal opinion regarding the excessive cost of 7mm Sound Decoders, I was convinced I could save a huge amount of money by coming up with an alternative.

That thread has been quiet for a couple of months, but still seems to be generating interest, judging by the rising number of hits..... I concede that the thread would appear to have stalled, but I think that was because conflicts were starting to surface.

Offline, however, I have continued to strive towards this personal goal, ably assisted by Clickerty Clack, who is a very genuine and knowledgable guy when it comes to sound matters.

I have been looking at several methods, whilst trying to develop the link between sound production and motion control of the locomotives.

I made great strides using the free (and very professional) PureData music production software program which can share USB gamepad-driven control methods with the free JMRI DCC system.

Puredata has a big brother called MaxMsp which has much more functionality, but the licence is quite expensive. However, I developed a workable system during the four week free trial period.

It is an offboard (pc-based) system, sending sounds to the loco via Bluetooth Audio Streaming.

That is more of a longterm project, and the free version is certainly cheap in comparison with Sound Chips.

The other major benefit is that the sound quality is far superior to that available on current Sound Chips.

As part of my 'education', I tried to program a LokSound project, but I was really surprised and disappointed to find that the compilation process reduces the sound quality by around a third - necessary to pack enough sound samples onto a chip.

At this time, however, I would like to share with members a method of Layout Sound production that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere before.

It's very early days yet, but this an exciting new angle, so watch this space!

Above all....it's more or less 'as cheap as chips' (unlike Sound Chips!)...

I'll post a video in the next few days....

Randall

Hi PaulNo, last one left in the shop and still in unpainted brass.Ian

I think I know where that one came from :-)

No Christmas lights for sale in the Bishopston area as far as I can remember....

Randall