2512silverfox

Larry I am still using Britrail screw couplings having been given some many moons ago by Peter Everton. Peter built several locos as demos for the Far East to show what was required. Nick ps How's the op going now - had mine 28 years ago!

Going back to MGW. This partnership was Rod Maclaren, Alan Gibson and a chap called Webb whose first name I forget. They worked out of a unit here in Colchester and their products were for a time at the forefront. Their instability was renown and gained them, at least around here, the nickname 'Maclaren's Grotty Wheels'. Alan went his own way and that is history, but Rod went on to buy 3H although nothing much seemed to come of it.

Just been pointed in the direction of these posts. Happy days! Tony's memory is pretty good about the NORFOLK & GOOD wagon (it must be said in a Scottish accent to have full effect). The original wagon was 7mm Slaters and was painted by me for Wally Mayhew's 7mm fine scale layout, but the idea was that of the Late Fred Newman who was something of a wag. Building coaches for Ronne Hoare (the UK Ferrari Concessionaire) Fred once said, I think I would like a varnished teak Ferrari - Ronnie said No Problem - White roof I presume. Greetings to Tony - I read the obits in the DT this morning and I am still here! Nick Campling

The Harwich for the Continent sign was on Liverpool St Station early 70s and was an official sign. Students added the Frinton part underneath in whitewash!

Livery is LNER Wagon Grey (quite a dark colour - similar to GWR Wagon Grey) Al black below solebars. Transfers - I use HMRS Methfix, but there are others.

Larry The axleboxes on the GC CCT were as supplied by Danny Pinnock. They seem to be different to those used on Micks example. I do not pretend to be an NE expert, so you may well be right.

Mick The period to 1936 would have been G Crown R rather than GVR which was never used. The late fee notice is an actual pre War LNER transfer although I agree that the spacing may have been changed over the years. The lettering was script in Victorian times. Larry My information from Doncaster in about 1965 was that this method was used for the brown, red oxide and wagon grey. The red oxide was quite stable because the main ingredient was red oxide. This was the brown which would have been used on the re branded M&GN stock. In 1975, when David and I sorted out the restoration of the GN 6 wheel brake for the NRM at York, the foreman confirmed the batch mixing method although he only remembered it at the start of his career. He did not like 'amateurs' telling him how to paint a coach, but after we went through the full 13 applications in detail, he laughed and agreed to do it 'as they did'. Incidentally it cost more for the gold leaf than the coach cost originall in 1880! Nick

Mick A couple of answers here. First a photo of the GC CCT in pre '37 livery. Then a couple of TPO transfers (actual) - The reign changes - in your case G X R. Now the question of NPCS Brown. I will try to simplify. Up until 1939 the works mixed their own 'Brown' or 'Teak' paint, each works shade being slightly different. Add to that the fact that batches were made up in galvanised dustbins and paint kettles filled therefrom. Depending on when during a shift (or week) the paint was drawnm, you got s slight vaiation of colour! The mat paint was then varnished which gave another variation depending on the number of coats. The same supposed colour was used on all NPCS stock and all coahes for solebars wheel centres etc. Then in 1938 with the introduction of the LLCK (Extra Long CCT) a new Gloss paint was used which was provided from an outside contractor. This was matched in tins to a sealed pattern and diid not vary at source. The prvenance for this information was from two senior paint shop foreman, one each at Doncaster and York, who had worked up as apprectives in the 20's and 30's. I use precision 'Teak Brown' and still have some old Humbrol HR143. These two shades vary slightly which is quite pleasing. The GNR CCT is in Precision. Hope this help - if only to confuse you further! Nick

Mick I do have a painted example of the GC CCT and will post a picture of it but not until tomorrow - I have got to find it!

Yes! Sorry, I should have noticed before.

Mick Going back to your TPOs. Do not forget that the late fee boxes on both sides of the vehicle would have been post office red during the teak period. The transfers were then applied and I have a set on my workshop wall which came from Doncaster complete with original panel!

Roger Yes it does include the tie bars!

Also remember that ABS did (or do) the LNER 6 plank in 9' and 10' wheelbase, fitted and unfitted. Returning to the 5pl GWR opens, I built a rake of them (painted in the livery of Itters Bricks) in the late 70's using MGW open spoke wheels which went together well, and are still in good order. I do remember a problem with the floor dimensions but it was not insurmountable.

Mick Its a bit difficult to tell, but are the solebars in teak paint like the Gresley Coaches? They appear black, but it may be the footboards. Teak looks good.

I have had a chance to look into my paint records and can confirm that there is a slight difference between Precision (was B25) and Humbrol HR143. The latter is slighly darker and between them they represent the two shades which were used at Doncaster and York respectively. For the rivet counters the Mansell references are Precision 6F7 and Humbrol 7F8. Going back to the research carried out in 1965/6 at the Plant, and later at York, according to the paint shop foremen, the brown finish was employed only on those vehicles which had originally carried a different colour (NER Crimson is an example) or where on a teak vehicle it was too badly stained to be bleached back to its original finish with oxalic acid. This was rare so that most ex GN and ECJS stock remained in teak until BR numbering was imposed i.e. about 1949/50. A good example of this is the GNR full brake in the NRM. When this was discovered it had been painted with a black tar paint for departmental use. York took the job over (1975) and bleached the panels back to their original (1883) condition - the only trouble was that it cost more for the gold leaf used on the lettering, than the vehicle had cost when it was new! This vehicle is probably looking a bit darker now after 34 years in the museum, but is still a good reference point as is the Royal Train brake. Originally the brown paint was mixed to a constituent recipe in dustbins, and therefore, like the wagon colours, was not exactly consistent. The paint was also matt and given one or more coats of varnish. From the late 30's contractor mixed gloss paint was used which was not so hardy but cut down the time in the paint shop. It can be seen therefore that the colours would have varied greatly during the 20's and 30's and since varnish was applied over a matt paint, the varnish darkened with age as well. There is one well known Colour Rail transparency of an A3 with a horsebox behind it in which the horsebox appears to be 'dark chocolate.' I hope this helps a bit! Nick Campling ps There is a funny story about the GN Brake. David Jenkinson and I went to see 'Mac' who was the York paint shop foreman to dicuss the retoration. He was quite gruff and not really happy to be told by a couple of enthusiasts how he should restore a vehicle, but said he would do it however we wanted it. Having gone through with him the thirteen coats of varnish size etc, he suddenly changes his tune, and promised to do the job as it would have been done in the 1890's - and he did.

ArthurK is quite right about the A4 colour. Precision is the best match, but I personally think that this is correct only for a 4mm model! Just as an aside, the original A4 Garter Blue was exactly the same shade as used by Bugatti for the French racing team that being their National colour - it was HNG's tribute to Ettoire who helped him with the airflow experiments. Back to NPCS - I will dig out some photos and post them here tomorrow.

I think that every effort has been made to get as near as is possible to the original. The examples given, which were matched about 45 years ago, had not been exposed to the usual elements and had been cleaned with T Cut to get back to the true hue. They were also classified using the Mansell system of colour coding which enable the colours to be reproduced now. Shades do change and I have used lightened Garter Blue and Crimson on a 4mm A4 which was supposed to have been near to overhaul, and by goodness it does look different! As far as NPCS Brown is concerned, the original colour from 1923 was more of a GW chocolate brown, but the colour was pretty unstable and degraded to the light umber brown in time, especially since MPCS was not overhauled and repainted that often. The first use of the 'teak' colour (HR143 I think) was the LLCK produced in 1939 or thereabouts. The works drawing actually specifies that this paint is to be used in future. However, since I model the 1930-40 period I do tend to use HR143 or Precision with varying dgrees of lightening.

Actually Mick you are wrong about shades of colours. The LNER Study Group, of which I am a founder member, went to great lengths to match the colours for originally Humbrol and then Precision. The original A4 colours were matched to an authentic 1935 painted model which had been inside for most of its life, and the Coronation specs were taken again from a contemprorary model painted at Doncaster in 1937. Now admittedly there is the question of scale colour, since the the original would be too dark for a 4mm model, and sometimes looks to light even on a 7mm model, but the actuals shades are as true as one can now achieve by the paints by Phoenix Precision. Unfortunately the Humbrol shades were just as good, but have now been absent for some years - although I am still using some of them from stocks bought at the time.

Mick The 4" Gill Sans capitals in dark blue go on the bodyside near the doors as per the elegantsteam drawing. He shows them as being chrome which is wrong! 'A' goes on the vehicle nearest London and so on... I have had time to look at some of the other illustations and there are quite a few errors. The sooner I get my LNERR Livery manuscript to Wild Swan the better!

Mick The Rexine was later painted as I described. I was told this by the late paintshop foreman at Doncaster in the mid 60's who had worked on the SJ stock as a younger man. I worked with Michael Harris on the otiginal Gresley Coaches book particularly on liveries and the index of running numbers, so I am not sure where he got the Silver Paint from! I do agree that the skirts look lighter than the A4 valances in some photos, but that could be a trick of light. The whole idea was that the different greys should match throughout the train. Incidentally the A4 greys were matched (originally for Cherry) against a large scale model of Silver Link which was built at the Plant by apprentices, and painted with the same paint as the full size locos. Since it spent all its life under cover, and often in store, the colour is thought to be the nearest match now available. I am not sure where it is now, but it may be at Shildon. Nick

The elegant steam illustrations are a bit suspect. The colour was originally pale grey Rexine often erroneously called 'silver' grey. When the Rexine began to show signs of wear, the coaches were repainted the same grey as the A4 main body colour, which was quite light in shade. The wheels centres and bogies were A4 charcoal grey with the axle boxes in the much darker grey. The carriage letter designations were in dark blue 'gill sans' capitals.

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