Ceptic

Many thanks Uk_Steve, for taking the trouble & time out, to film & post that footage.

As you point out, that VEP's performance is still a little bit?, as they say nowadays, flakey / shakey ?, especially when entering the straght from the curve (this reminds me of the days of Tri-ang).

Your video certainly shows the difference in performance, especially slow running, between Bachmann's 2-EPB, and your 2 car VEP.

As people have commented on previously, l'm also sure that a Bachmann 4-CEP would have out shone. even with 4 cars

As an aside, have you tried running it through a reverse cross-over, or up an incline ?...

l have,.. hence my reluctance to buy, or recommend this model, or any further Hornby release of this version

l could go on whinging, but l'm getting a little fed up / tired with complaining on this open forum, and, especially, to the manufacturer, without getting a satisfactory answer from the main man, namely Hornby.

Thanks Fellas for your enthusiastic comments.

The chances of finding the plans are going to be low. I think the best you're likely to get is the footprints of buildings from Ordnance Survey maps, and then use photos from local history books to extrapolate the appearance. While railway architecture is probably well covered in archived plans, I don't think the same can probably be said for many other buildings.

Thanks for the input, lan, and as you point out, lt's the 'Civvie' buildings that are the problem.

The group certainly has the plans / elevations of the railway related buildings, also a certain amount of photographs, Some taken recently, others just before the surrounding area was re-developed and earlier ones. A percentage of these showing the buildings of interest in the background. lt's the full-frontal, up the alley and around the back shots they're really short of.

The group have aquired oldish plans of the GPO Sorting office and the South Western Hotel, from Hampshie C.C. but they are in such a poor condition as to be un-readable.

They've also been in contact with Dorset C.C., but, so far. only through their website, which directed them to the 'Streets of Bournemouth' site. Some photos being gained from this.

The next move is to make a personal appointment to spend some time searching the archives held by Dorset C.C.. This is is a thing that l've also got to do, as the SRGroup (Not the RMweb group) are rather reluctant to release copies of their official Bournemouth West buildings plans. (l am a member, and they do hold them, so l'm told.)

So,.. that's the plan in hand. Get Christmas out of the way, and we'll have another go.

What a great layout, the guys have done so far. Hopefully get to see some more pictures as work continues with it. Colin

More pictures to follow, once the Bourne Valley viaducts are finished.

HI Ceptic Thanks for sharing these pictures with us - this layout looks great! Is the layout open to RMwebbers and if so, where is it located (Bournemouth area??) Mike

Without sounding elitest, regretfully, Mike, the layout, and it's location are kept under lock and key. l'm sworn to secrecy, for reasons of security.

Mind you, if you came up with any relevent information,...Who knows what might happen !!

Thanks again. Wishing you All, A Very Happy Christmas (and Jan 3rd.)

Bournemouth Central in OO

ln case anyone's missed out on pics of this layout, here's the link.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44478-bournemouth-central-model-railway-group/

The latest photos, taken by John Street. Reproduced here with his, and the BCMRGroup's permission.

Through the pines, alongside Meyrick Park Golf Course.

The kiddies are either waiting to pick up any lost balls, or kicking the ants' nests, as they appear not to have any interest in any passing train.

The 'Ambition Twirlers' twirling to the beat of of the Bulleid pacific.

The music must be still ringing in their ears, as they're still twirling.

A more distant shot, showing the 3-arch bridge, the surounding pine trees, and the start of the park's avenue of Horse Chestnuts., Aways a good source of Conkers, in the Autumn.

The bridge's detail is still being added to.

The Platelayer's hut marks the spot once occcupied by the Meyrick Park Halt. ln it's heyday, served by a LSWR Railmotor.

Approaching Cemetary Junction road-overbridge No.17

Running in, past 71B.

Showing the MPD's wheel-drop hoist and the water softening tank, behind.

This, and the following pics. show the area around the Holdenhurst Road overbridge No.14.

As you can see, it is still under development.

As stated previously, this is being held back by the lack of readable plans / drawings of the surrounding buildings.

The group's recent searches, over the past months, have proved fruitless.

Regards, and Thanks for looking in, Frank.

Posted this one onto a Bournemouth Central related thead, many moons ago.

Attatched to the Goods Depot''s weighbridge office exterior wall. Photographed back in the '80s.

Can anyone de-cipher ?

Regards

From a potential customers' point of view...

A quote from page 70 of Hornby's 2010 Catalogue :-

"For commuter traffic enthusiasts the Hitachi 395 brings this form of people transport right up to date, but for those interested in the later half of the 20th century the class 423 VEPs (Vestibule Electro Pneumatic) enters into the superb* Hornby range in two guises making a tremendously welcome addition to the Train Pack range."

End of quote,

* My emphasis.... Lack of punctuation, is, as quoted.

Now....How many of us customers / retailers were taken in by this spin ?....Only to find that the product offered for sale, didn't match their expectations.

l've got more references to Hornby's (perceived and misleading) inclusion of the 4-VEP into the 'Superb' Train Pack Range... But, l'll hold fire, for the moment

Thanks Mike T, ... Nice one .

That's precisely the effect that l was hoping to achieve. Well done.

.

By showing all 4 from near-enough dead-ahead you flatter Hornby by not showing the false-depth of the door recess and the lack of shadow effect between the two pieces of the gangway

 

.

How close is the Hornby one photograped from? To get the fairest match to the drawing, the photo needs to be taken from as far away as possible. It might even be worth a try scanning the end on a flatbed scanner..

 

Dave

Phil & Dave,

l do see where you're coming from, but please bear in mind that the photos, only, are subject to perspective, especially the prototype pic., which, as you can see, is not taken completely horizontally / vertically head-on. (lt's the best l've got)..... Whereas the drawing is devoid of vertical perspective.

The Hornby pic. was taken from approx. 305mm. / 1 ft. away, zoomed in and cropped. Here's the (Down-sized to fit) original.

l was hoping that the shadows around the gangway door, shown on the model, as against the lack of, in the prototype shot, would give an impression of the different depths..

Perhaps, not ?

Thanks all, for your thoughts

Going back over old ground, l know, but it's 'Spot the difference' time.

l've dug out this old, reasonably head on shot of the real thing, to compare with.

l'm still trying to suss out how to overlay the plan onto Hornby's front end, using Corel Paint Shop Pro, but, l'm afraid l'm going to have to 'phone a friend'.

Regards.

 

Nope, sorry Jon. The way Hornby makes the front end is bizarre, and in cutting it apart, it effectively renders it unusable. The glazing unit has the recess with pipes as a painted section of it, and the sections which give you the door and windows, is stuck firmly against the glazing.

 

But your theory sounds rather good. The only drawback is that you are still left with the biggest problem (at least for me) - the windows and their distance to the outside pillars.

l, too, have considered a resin casting for a replacement gangway, made from a widened Hornby donor*. But, this also means that the door would have to be cut from the front, widened and set forward within the gangway shroud. A lot of detail would be lost in the process, i.e. the route indicator aperture size and the gutter would need to be preserved, along with the detail of the rubbing surfaces**. lt also crossed my mind that a thinnish, wrap-around, detailed, etch, covering the whole of the front end, onto which, it could be blended in, plus a seperate etch for the door, again, set foward within a re-mastered, resin gangway. This leaves you having to cut away, and re-position the cable recesses and windows !!.

Just the job for those with steady hands, good eyesight and nerves of steel.

Re :- Traction tyres..... Yep, mine are both on the outer axle, also.

Re :- Response / reply from Hornby....None, to date.

Regards to all, Ceptic.

* P.S. This may infringe copyright

** P.P.S. Would it even be possible to etch that sort of fine detail ?.

 

Nice drawing.

 

A pity you don't/didn't work for Hornby Frank!

 

Colin

Thanks for the praise, Colin,

lt's far easier to draw it, than it is to build from scratch, though.

Also, Margate's a long way on me bike, and l doubt, very much they'd put up with a grumpy ol' s0d, for very long.

Cheers, Frank ..Spokesmanperson for Rivet Counters Inc.

P.S.

l'm hoping to work through the S.R. & B.R.(S) Emus' / Demus' front ends, (Always, a favourite of mine) using SketchUp. Trouble is, l'm already part way into re-doing the Bulleid rebuilt 'Tavern' Kitchen Buffet's underframe, drawing a typical electric powered, S.R. M.P.D. Coaling crane, and trying to piece together enough info' to finish a Bournemouth West station project, this time, using SketchUp's 3D option.

So, folks, (and Hornby),.. don't hold your breath.

From memory they do not have the cast in buffer beam as you use the SP moulded parts.

Thanks, once again Mike T.

l originally,had the idea that they may have been a resin casting.

Cheers.

metadyneman, on 10 November 2011 - 17:08 , said:

I'm just wondering if a similar drawing could be done using the dimensions of the Hornby model and then superimposed on top of the drawing you have done to see just exactly where Hornby have got it wrong.. we then may have an argument to put to Mr Kohler and ask why Hornby didn't get the model right?

l'm still onna slooow learning curve here, metadyneman, more used to ink on paper.

Plus, l'm still trying to put a montage together, using a head-on view / photo of the prototype (which l don't have / that's another story), my drawing and Hornby's effort.

lf successful, l'll get back to yous.

Cheers.

 

 

that looks brilliant!!

 

wow i am impressed

Thanks for the complement Uk_Steve.

Like l say, there's still a lot of detail to be added.... On the other hand, it might be better without it ?

Frank - would it be alright to use your drawings as a guide for a cad project (a possible 3D print)? I am looking at that with some admiration, it captures the unit's face accurately.

That's fine by me, Simon. Sounds good.

Although SketchUp's programme enables 3D drawings, these were produced in 2D, and have lost a lot of the sharpness in the process of printing, scanning, re-sizing and posting on here.

l'll look to see if there is any way of posting the drawing direct to you via a PM.

Something l've been working on, the past few weeks.

Drawn, and brought up to date, using Google SketchUp. They're based on photos, drawings & notes made back in the '80s, when l did a stint of pattern making for MMP.

As you can, hopefully, make out there still many details to be added, but it does show the basic character.

Cheers

Mike Trice,

Many thanks for your information. Are you able to say how the ends are / have been modified ?

Cheers. Frank.

Re :- Vent sizes.

Scallop type --- Prototype ---- Outer dome = 8 1/2" dia. / Inner dome = 6 1/2" dia. *

...."........".......Hornby 4-VEP......".......".....= 2mm. = 6".dia.

...."........".....Bachmann 4-CEP..."......".....= 2.6mm. = 8" dia.

* Source :- Keith Parkin's British Railways Mark 1 Coaches (Supplement)

A quick question, Folks.

Has anyone had experience of using / seeing the Southern Pride Emu cast ends and gangways ?.

Are they made to their own design ?, or do they supply MJT's ?.

Thanks, in advance.

Well done Simon ,... At last,.. you've had a reply...

After all the effort you've put in, to advise us, on this topic, and, to take your own initiative, along with other's quite drastic improvements to a r-t-r model,.. which should have been there,... in the first place.

l salute you

Cheers, Simon *

* Please accept my apologies, if l've called you Martin in my previous posts.

There's been a couple folks, on here, who are waiting for the B/G version.

This is hinted at ? *, 19mins. 30secs.into the Model Rail Live DVD, which comes with the mag's December issue.

* The commentary snippets state, that, quote :- " ..Hornby's 4-VEP model was launched in Summer 2011, and is a stunning 4 car unit.....The model is offered in original Rail Blue, Blue & Grey and Network SouthEast liveries....".

No film of any of the units working, either in the dvd's first part, or in the second, which is, in itself, a promo / plug for Hornby.

Maybe ? the latter part was filmed before the model's release.

I do wonder (quite a lot of the time)...Have i missed / am l missing,...or, are.. they missing something ??..

Venator,

What's the slowest speed that your unit will traverse a crossover ?.

At anything approaching a scale speed, mine will stall. That's if l can get it to run smoothly at anything like a slowish, scale speed !!

If l up the speed, mine has the tendancy to de-rail, not always tho'.

Cheers.

Many Thanks S.A.C. Martin, and Others, for your support / observations / input, into this topic

Going back to the original observations that, possibly, kicked Hornby's VEP into touch, here's some comparitive photos showing MJT's front end, up against Hornby's.

Both have their faults

.

Hornby's width.

MJT's... Note that it represents three flat panels. Not a continuous curve, as it should be.

A close-up. To match Hornby's detail, this would need a lot of work.

Hornby's gangway / corridor connection. Note the sides' distortion.

MJT's. Much nearer the mark, although the headcode window is larger than Hornby's.

A vertical comparison.

And a horizontal one.

Taking into account all the other drawbacks / faults found with this model, l can only recommend a complete rebuild, using only the vehicles' sides.(cab-side windows excepted) and underframes

.

The thing is, where. do l, or anyone else, looking for a fair representative. start ??

 

Snip.....I might add - there are several other internet forums where very similar things about this model are being said. One of which has actually linked to a few posts here as evidence for the prosecution, so to speak!.....Snip

 

Which begs the question, 'Are Hornby listening ?'

How many times did Bachmann Europe go back to the drawing board / toolroom ?, after many observational comments / complaints, before they were perceived, by the majority of their Cl.37 customers, to have got the thing right. Was it two or three times?.

l would imagine this improvement boosted the sales of said model considerably.

Somehow, l don't see Hornby doing this.

From a personal point of view, their company motto is coming across as 'Etiam vel massa id' : translates to 'Like it or lump it'.

P.S.

l rather like being mistaken for a professional, quite a compliment.

But did Venator really think that l got paid for posting on here ???

 

The Hornby Dublo Southern EMU which in fact was a resonably accurate model of an LMR Class 501 was very good for a model from the early 1960's

 

XF

Present day Hornby could have, at least, taken a leaf out of the Hornby Dublo's motor bogie set-up.

Mine will still haul itself, and eleven, or more, other coaches, quite happily, without all these current issues afflicting the VEP.

l always use this as a comparison with latter day performances.

(Mind you, it does use traction tyres)

A very well worded letter Martin. .

How do you propose to send it ?. l fear an e-mail will be simply tossed onto the back burner, or into the bin.

I'm on the point of writing a second letter of complaint. This time sent by Royal Mail, Recorded delivery, addressed FAO Simon Kohler.

l hope you won't mind if l include some of the criticisms raised by you, and other contributers, including a re-inforcement of my own...

Regards