Porfuera

Yes you are being picky - your original statement was "Until the range increases dramatically TT:120 will be very much a train set scale; it won't be possible to build a serious model railway for the foreseeable future." and it has been done and you haven't refuted that.

My point is that although yes you can fit in more, even in TT:120 most people are still not going to be able to run a full-length HST or a 12-unit DMU/EMU or a Class 66 pulling 30 Arnold container flats or the above-mentioned example of a WCML express passenger train from the 1920s and 1930s or a 9F pulling however many 16T minerals. For the majority I think TT:120 may provide the opportunity to run realistic medium-length consists in a small space with some space for landscaping but full-length modern trains will almost certainly be out of reach of most people as will some of the older expresses and freights. So probably most people will still be modelling a branch line or a yard or something along those lines but perhaps with a bit of extra space to allow slightly more running length than you get in 00. But then if what you gain with TT:120 is lost with the reduction in the room size in newer UK properties then we'd be back to square 1 in some cases.

So if railway locos/carriages/wagons are getting longer these days and also the tendency being towards longer block trains then if space is at a premium I would have thought that older eras would make more sense for TT:120? I guess it depends on your definition of modern image as well but I'd have thought perhaps something going up to UK Era 7 (or 8 maybe) whether steam or diesel with small-to-medium locos with 2-axle wagons and smallish bogie wagons and short formation passenger trains? Although I would guess that there are probably some ultra-modern image services somewhere that would fit the bill...

I don't really understand that. Are you linking smaller houses/flats in the UK to younger people and saying that younger people tend to model modern prototypes? For a start old(er) people downsize. Also if people only model what they know then there wouldn't be anyone modelling Eras 1 and 2 because there's no-one left that remembers them.

Really? Perhaps you should take a look at the following video. The "it won't be possible" has been done already. But then I guess it is much easier for all those that don't like TT:120 to knock it by complaining about how small the range is or how slow Hornby are at getting it to market or how they've made the wrong choices of locos than it is to get on and do something about those things.

There is an HST set in the catalogue: TT1004M LNER East Coast Mainline HST Electric Train Set - Era 11 But I guess the reason they started with two Pacific sets is that Blink Bonny and William Whitelaw share a common chassis (although I haven't checked), so sharing the tooling thereby keeping development costs down when they didn't know how well TT:120 was going to do. And I hate to disappoint you but before the HST set arrives there is apparently yet another NE Pacific set on the way in April - see the following link to @GenericRMWebUsername 's post on the previous page: TT1003M British Pullman Electric Train Set - Era 3 I guess Hornby reckon you can't have too many Pacifics, although I'd prefer to see more new stuff 😁

Agreed - and you could apply the same argument to steam vs modern image or big four vs BR or whatever. But does that really matter? Are Hornby aiming at devotees anyway or are they aiming at the train set / Rule 1 market? Which is the larger sector? It is sometimes said that RMweb isn't really representative of the model railway market as a whole so perhaps it doesn't matter what people here think - our individual views are probably skewed by what we want rather than what will sell to the general public, who may not worry too much as long as it runs well and looks pretty while it is going round and round in circles. And if they are happy with that and it sells train sets then I'd say that's a good thing because it will introduce more people to the hobby.

IIRC the original plan was to complete a phase every six months or so but for many reasons that have already been done to death that plan didn't work out. If it had done then I think things would be looking much better - it still might not be the cohesive range that some people want but there would be a broader selection in which many people could find something that suited them. And Hornby aren't the only ones to suffer from these production problems - I'm still waiting for Heljan's Class 02 that was announced in September 2020, which is now almost four-and-a-half years ago. So in comparison I think Hornby are doing pretty well in the sixteen months since TT:120 was announced. We will never know but surely that would completely alienate people who want steam locos - would that be wise? I doubt it. And judging by the way that the current two sets repeatedly sold out I'd say that those were a good choice. In any case it is only the 158 that doesn't seem to be on the TT:120 radar - originally the 66 should have been here at least six months ago and the 37 would have been some time this year as well as some other diesels and more steam locos, too. But obviously that won't happen now and people need to be patient. And surely Hornby are basing their TT:120 lineup on their sales figures from their 00 range? They will know what sells best for them but in addition they look like they are trying to produce a bit of something for everyone in order to try to attract a wide range of buyers rather than concentrating on a small sector of the market and ignoring everyone else.

I believe an 08 shunting set was mentioned by SK on one of the TT Talk videos about a year or so back (possibly as part of his response to a question about green 08s) and there was a bit of discussion on here. I think it was the same TT Talk where the steam 0-6-0s were first mentioned. Other sets are mentioned in the catalogue but obviously there is no indication of when they will arrive - maybe we'll hear something in April? TT1003M British Pullman Electric Train Set - Era 3 TT1004M LNER East Coast Mainline HST Electric Train Set - Era 11 (un-numbered) Mainline Express Electric Train Set - Era 7 Personally I'd prefer to see train packs rather than train sets - I have enough loops of radius 3 curves to be going on with. 😁

I watched the Sam Strains (sic) video today and I thought it was a pile of unsubstantiated twaddle. Does he do any research or fact checking? Please don't answer that - I think I already know the answer! I think he made over a dozen assertions/suggestions that could easily be refuted with a bit of checking - or even with a bit of logical thought. For example, according to Sam, Hornby have only produced three types of TT:120 locomotive (A3s, A4s and Class 08s) - no A1s mentioned anywhere in the video, despite A1s being the first TT:120 locos to appear. The TT:120 Flying Scotsman is also described as being an A3 and not an A1. Plus at one point he mentioned the "Flying Scotsman set" - OK, maybe it was just a slip of the tongue and it isn't exactly the end of the world but to me it adds to the feeling that he doesn't know what he's talking about and in any event it is something that could easily be corrected by putting some text into the video at that point to rectify the spoken error (as many others do). But perhaps most interesting was that he considered the result of his poll to be "quite shocking" for Hornby TT:120. Based on his poll, 88% of respondents had no interest in TT:120, but he completely ignored the fact that 11% were actually modelling in TT:120 - either as first-time modellers (6%), switched from another scale (2%) or in addition to another scale (5%). 11% is a much higher figure than I would have expected - I would've reckoned on something more like 5% in total. Perhaps you could argue that TT:120 modellers felt more inclined to reply whereas modellers in other scales couldn't be bothered so maybe the results are weighted in favour of TT:120, but even so I think that result is pretty good for TT:120.

I can only assume that Garry was referring to the forthcoming announcement in April and that there was some mention that this wouldn't be as 'big' as a lot of people were hoping. And on top of that he wasn't given any indication whether the 37 and the 47 will be included in the announcement but even if they aren't included then it doesn't mean that they've been dropped from the range. Personally I think they'll show some progress on these two (and more) in April but given that all of their previous proposed release dates have slipped to some degree then I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't give any release dates for the items in Phases 3 and 4 in the April announcement. It also sounds like they're doing away with the phases anyway and that they will go back to announcing releases when they are closer to arrival or release. I like the way that Accurascale, Rapido and others do it - they send out periodic newsletters that have status updates for various projects at certain stages of development (warts and all) and then at the end they tell purchasers when a particular model is on its way to the UK. And in their last newsletters I notice that both of those manufacturers have apologised for delays in development/production/arrival of some items so it isn't just Hornby that have these problems.

Hi Steve - sorry! I forgot that the "British Outline 1:120 TT Railway Modellers" is a private group. Garry also posts to another group "Hornby TT:120 Group", which is public - the posts should be available to you as a guest if you click the following links (fingers crossed!) although the comments won't be the same. Closeup pictures of the Duchess here (complete with slightly wonky running plate but I guess this is a pre-production prototype or even just a 3D print that's been used as a livery sample) - scheduled for a May release according to the post. Some slightly less interesting closeups of other items here but one comment says that the poster was told that InterCity HSTs (presumably the ones in the IC Executive/Swallow livery) will ship in the middle of next month. The same person posted a closeup of an Arnold Class 66 prototype here

An interesting post on Facebook yesterday by Garry Hall (prolific Facebook poster with many TT:120 conversions using Hornby Pacific chassis and 3mm society chassis with 3d printed bodies) saying what he was told about Hornby's plans for TT:120 - I think this was at the Hornby event at Rails of Sheffield this Friday/Saturday/Sunday: "What I was told today is not to expect too much in the April announcement. There will be a couple of surprises and also different liveries but it is not like the 00 announcements. I was not told if the 37, 47 were in but in MY opinion these will be extra as we already know about them and they have already been mentioned in "phase 3". As for "phase 3" he did say they were looking at dropping phases." In my opinion Garry is being genuine and honest with his comments and thoughts here - he is very enthusiastic about TT:120 (to say the least!) so I don't think he is trying to be sensationalist or attention-seeking. The FB post is here if anyone wants to read it. Simon Kohler posted a couple of replies, too (although he stated these were in a personal capacity rather than as someone connected with Hornby). Finally here's a picture of some of the items that Rails had on display (picture from Rails' Facebook account):

My guess is that it depends on each courier's interpretation of how to implement the rules. My last package from Germany (previous page) arrived on December 27th and after German VAT was deducted the goods cost €151.37 (so under £135) but the €12.90 postage would've taken it over £135 but I didn't get charged UK VAT or handling. Mine came by FedEx from start to finish rather than DHL and then ParcelForce.

It looks like someone is already proposing a couple of TT:120 models based on these motor bogies plus other models and scales too. However nothing appears to be available yet in any of the four scales shown and the web site seems to be a work in progress but it might be worth keeping an eye on: https://spannershedmodels.weebly.com/tt-1120.html?fbclid=IwAR35R1Lg3kjJIhIfrqOL_y7zwHoJteFgX6MFOxF1IAAhc4_WX-TXMnI0twI

This is the best view I have managed to find so far and it looks like it has one end door similar to the end door that can be seen on the Glenhafod wagon above. The image is from last July's Train Terminal called "Class 50 and a Rake of Wagons" (so presumably it is the real thing rather than a photoshop of a 00 wagon) and all three variants appear to have the same:

I'm not worried. I wanted to know whether my guestimate of "62mm over buffers and maybe 72mm overall length (allowing 10mm for the couplings)" was reasonable or way off - potential layout planning!

I think the lengths in the shop are the overall lengths including couplings but if not then I think they would at least include the buffers rather than being over headstocks. Either way shouldn't the 21T minerals be longer than the vent vans and the 7-plank PO wagons rather than shorter? Don't they have a 12-foot wheelbase rather than 10-foot? I think I measured the TT:120 PO wagons and the vent vans a while back and from what I remember they corresponded to the lengths given in the shop (and included the couplings) so I don't think it is the case that those lengths are wrong.

And something I nearly forgot - the online shop gives the lengths of all three 21T minerals as 5.5cm, which seems a little short to me given that the PO opens and the vent vans are given as 6.4cm and 6.6cm respectively (I assume those lengths include the couplings). Measuring from an 0 Gauge Grampus and rescaling, I worked out that the length should be more like 62mm over buffers and maybe 72mm overall length (allowing 10mm for the couplings). Any ideas? Obviously the effective overall length for wagons in a rake will work out slightly less than this because there is some overlap in the couplings when they're coupled up.

I thought I'd kick off a thread on these wagons, seeing as they may be the next TT:120 wagons to arrive - assuming the HAAs don't overtake them and beat them to it. I know everyone and his dog would have preferred Hornby to have produced the 16 ton minerals instead of these, but it is what it is. I'm sure someone will produce 16T minerals at some point - maybe Peco if not Hornby themselves... Roll on April - maybe they will be announced then? I for one am looking forward to these arriving - more stock can only be a good thing, right? And for me these (reasonably) modern-image wagons are even better. And I guess the chassis can be used under 3D printed bodies of other wagons and they would be cheaper than using the chassis from the TTAs. These appear to be the pre-production prototypes (photo from Key Model World): I'm not an expert (on anything) but the online shop seems to be a bit confused over the Eras and identities for these wagons. They are listed and pictured as: TT6015 21T Mineral Wagon, B314633 - Era 5 (bauxite livery is pictured) TT6016 21T Mineral wagon, P200781 - Era 4 (grey livery is pictured) TT6017 21T Mineral Wagon, B316500 - Era 6 (Glenhafod livery is pictured) It seems to me that the Glenhafod wagon should be the Era 4 wagon rather than the grey livery that is pictured in the shop. I guess that the 'P' prefix on P200781 indicates Private Owner and since the colliery was closed by the National Coal Board on November 28th 1958 then this would make these Glenhafod wagons Era 4/5. And seeing that the running number of the grey wagon in the photo above is B316500 then it seems that pictures on the shop entries for TT6016 and TT6017 have been swapped around. However, IIRC someone (sorry I can't remember who you were) has already pointed out that both the grey and the bauxite wagons have TOPS codes (MDO and MDV respectively) so should those both be Era 7? Does anyone out there have a definitive answer to this? To finish off, here is a picture of the undersides of the wagons (also from Key Model World):

Keep the faith... at least until the 'big' announcement in April...! I can't see Hornby canning it now (famous last words...!) because there have been plenty of sales and the blue HSTs are supposed to be here in Spring (the Executive ones even earlier) although the pessimist in me says you should add at least a month to those dates given that the TTAs were about a month later than they were supposed to be (and ignoring the fact that they were about nine months late overall). Sadly the Class 50s appear to have been put back to Summer, which means it looks like I'm going to have a rake of blue/grey Mk2s pulled by a blue Class 08... oh, well, never mind... I'm probably not helping, but why not wait and see whether Hornby have anything show off at Doncaster and Model Rail Scotland?

Doesn't a Class 66 have 12 wheels? Two with rubber leaves 10 wheels to collect current, not 8...

It isn't just gradients, though - train set curves aren't very good for haulage. At low speeds my Blink Bonny slows visibly and wheelslips around R2 curves when pulling just three coaches or 9 wagons. It may just be that my particular loco is a poor example but one of the selling points of TT:120 is that it is for use in small spaces, which can mean tight curves and therefore more friction when hauling stock.

I'm not sure why two traction tyres would reduce pickup to 8 wheels on a Co-Co Class 66 - surely pickup is from the wheels (i.e. not the axles) so you would still have 10 wheels collecting current? And as mentioned above possibly still some pickup from the wheels with the traction tyres.

It is good to know that you've managed to get refunds - IIRC you're the first person I remember hearing about first-hand, everything else has been hearsay. I don't have any personal experience of doing that because so far all my orders have qualified for free postage but soon that may change. It is just that the Hornby pre-orders generally don't seem to be sent out in a single package but seem to arrive separately over a number of days. I would assume that Arnold operates out of Margate and use the same warehousing/logistics company as Hornby, which is CCL Logistics. Maybe TT:120 generates high volumes of orders in short bursts and that makes it difficult for the logistics company to co-ordinate the pre-orders and to get them all sent out as single packages.