Bomag

The first 17 were put through the works before TOPS numbers were allocated, 418 and 419 were converted from what would have been 31104 and 31267 but before they were given TOPS numbers.

The first batch were allocated to ER sheds where there was a need for heating empty MK2d sets to and from depots (mostly to/from KX). This is the reason why they needed a ETH index of 66 - as a comparison 33s had an ETH index of 48 and 37/4 an index of 38.

By 1975 31420-424 had been converted - 425-436 in 1983, 437 to 463 in 1984, 464-468 in 1985, 469 in 1986 and 31400 in 1988

5 minutes ago, rasalmon said:

With respect, 210 and 265 are hardly significant anniversaries.  Not sure how you get "3 months" from Middleton opening to the public on 20th June 1960 for the university Rag Week to the Bluebell's public opening for a 6-week summer season with its own LRO in place on 7 August, :-) but the significant anniversaries relating to the Bluebell coming up that I can see are:

 

Alright Bluebell was 6 weeks after Middleton (June, July, August = 3 months at a shot). Well it was tongue in cheek about the 210 and 265, but being the first and/or oldest does help in having bigger numbers, particularly when you get fed up with being told the Bluebell was the first standard gauge preserved railway. This has tended to be moderated to first preserved mainline or BR line in the last few years. I think the early Bluebell people thought that the Middleton was a lot of academics playing trains; however, when I was in the RCE there were an awful lot of Leeds University engineers who managed to blag their first few years in BR by having learnt the basic on Middleton.       

I liked the section on Malmo Central, I was there in 2019 when I popped over from Copenhagen for a couple of hours. I had completely missed that is was gluelam, but the old station is very nice and not just the bits shown. In contrast the new glass section was rattling in the wind, it felt like the wind coming through the doors was causing the wire to flutter.

Wingfield Station was something which is hard to spot from the train but it is nice to see it. There must be something about Wingfield as the manor is in a similar condition, not helped by hostile natives stuffing up access.

10 minutes ago, Coldgunner said:

I wonder if she's going partly because of her history as number 23

A bit like 40 126 and M30204M

It looks to be from 2014, the last time I was there. Before I checked I was wondering why they did not mention at Downpatrick that the rail-motor won best restoration award.

The second series possibly covers some of the 3ft lines.  

26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I have no point of reference with a Class 110, because I've not knowingly ridden on one, and know nothing about the drive-train, but I do know that Class 31 with even a half-decent load of coaches behind it had a very leaden acceleration when compared with either suburban or main-line EMUs if the 1950/60s kind. The only thing that seemed more leaden was a Class 40.

While there were differences in how ETH was taken off the engine between early and late  31/4  conversions a four or five coach set of coaches with ETH operating would take out between 15-33% of the available hp. The loco hauling the 110 was a 31/1 - while not as spritely as a 37 it was probably deemed sufficient.

52 minutes ago, Titan said:

A class 110 twin has 11.25bhp/ton, a class 110/31 combo has about 12.8bhp/ton. Not enough to make a noticeable difference let alone make it worthwhile, especially as it will still be limited to 70mph anyway.

The critical thing for the south end of the GEML is ability to accelerate between signal checks, top speed is almost irrelevant and bhp/ton is less of an issue then torque. I am not a Mech Eng but as far as I am aware a traction motor will have much better torque profile than a mechanical transmission. Having been behind a 31 on short ballast workings they can shift.

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Wouldn't the 31 slow down the DMU?

Class 31's were only under powered if you think they are Type 3's. A Class 110 power twin has 720hp a 31/1 has 1470hp - vital to keep up between the units.

This was before my time in in the RCE, but I think they occasionality used 110s as inspection sets across the Eastern region, either as the earlier dedicated ones where indisposed or withdrawn due to asbestos. This may be a urban myth but 110's had 1st class seating in both ends and the inspection staff were partial to having comfy seats in both directions; they also had more grunt. I assume that it was 31 hauled since you would not want a DMU slowing up the south end of the GEML.

By the time I was in RCE Anglia we had regular visits from the track recording unit instead (Class 150/1 look alike), this had the benefit of recording defects and marking them. I had had a trip from Norwich to Lowestoft and the alarms never stopped for more than about half a mile at a time. More to do with the bouncy broads than constant twist faults.

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But I was pointing out that it seems to imply that it was still in BR service and would have been painted in BR blue/grey livery.

 

Reading the OP, the thread is supposed to be about modelling the exhibits. So who owned it and what livery it was is very relevant. 

 

Shouldn't we be getting these details right

 

We have been discussing the Griddle Cars elsewhere. Where that information above is from.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/162936-griddle-cars/

 

 

Jason

You may infer it but it there is no way my post implied that it was in B/G or BR service.  Have you actually looked at the program? The Griddle car was mentioned, without a clear view of the coach itself (the camera was concentrating on the LMS Dyno coach). The options for a Griddle car in a moving train in May 1980 were limited to  AG401 RGs numbers 1100 (NRMY95404) - vs- or E1102 -ae-. Since the kettle pulling it (the Jubilee Leander) was vac braked the logical assumption was that the the coach was 1100 and not E1102. The number of the coach is not visible nor mentioned; for clarity I mentioned my reasoning for saying it was 1100.

For the avoidance of doubt, given I am dyslexic and failed 'O' level English three times before giving up and going to University, the usage I am familiar is 'I infer, you imply'.

On 06/03/2021 at 12:00, Grizz said:

After Bluebell’s 60th (61st) anniversary celebrations, there are a couple of other significant dates coming up in the not too distant future, that could be worth celebrating. Or at least acknowledging.

 

2025 - 200th Anniversary of the first loco hauled public railway in the UK

2029 - 200th Anniversary of the Rainhill Trials.

2030 - 200th Anniversary of the Worlds first regular railway passenger service.

 

I’m hoping to be around (still breathing) for these dates....

 

Bluebell would do these proud I am sure. We are good at this sort of thing.

 

 

 

After Bluebell's 60th anniversary, 3 months after Middleton's 60th we have

2022 - 210 anniversary of the first commercially success steam loco.

2023 - 265 anniversary of the worlds oldest railway.

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

This is a rather old post - but surely, in view of regulations quoted up the thread , the issue here is that these trains all run via the Lickey Incline, which is steeper than 1 in 40. Therefore there would always have been severe restrictions on vehicles being permitted behind the brake, and in practice the old rule of a brake at each end would have been normal procedure on all passenger trains using the Birmingham/Bristol route?

 

And no doubt similar considerations would apply for anything loco-hauled  running west of Exeter, in view of Dainton and Rattrey Banks?

The Sussex and Dorset Scot, and most things running to Poole and points east did not run via Lickey. The Pines Express did, and only when using the S&D (rerouted Sept 62?); until re-routing it had a BCK one end and BSK at the other.

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Using the 5/80 signifies that it was still in BR service.

 

Jason

That would not be a valid presumption. Ownership is irrelevant; was it in use in May 1980? Yes.

11 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Griddle Car was preserved in 1977 and restored in 1978 so that's wrong. If you are referring to it as still being in service.

 

It was part of the preserved Dining Car set for railtours until they were banned from using old carriages on the mainline and it was used in the NRM as a picnic coach. Now on the GCR after being neglected.

 

http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1110

 

The Griddle Car wasn't banned but most of the rest of the train was.

 

 

Jason

I don't buy into argument that if its not owned by BR it's not 'real'. In May 1980 there were two Griddle cars (both AG401) which could be seen on the network, 1100 and 1102 - 1100 was the only one with vac brakes, 1102 was air/ETH only. All the other griddle cars were withdrawn and in store.

6 hours ago, AMJ said:

@Bomagto get an idea of the coaches and wagons might mean going through the BBC video slowly

I played it back again, but on a 4k monitor and the quality was much better.  Redhead and Jenkinson were a good double act but they dropped a clanger - they were slightly sniffy about the HST but were gushing about the APT saying it will be in service before the end of 1981

I got

Mk1 BG 81423

Mk1 Griddle 1100 (only one left vb in May 1980)

Pullmans

Audrey (280)

Topaz (59)

Emerald (326)

MK1 CK SRL 99205 (15829)?

DR73413

B745031 ex Mk1 SK 25134 then NGV 96254

B745087 ex Mk1 Sk 24163

43137 (253034)

The APT was possilbly

48104

48604

49001?

48602

48501

48204

48105

7 unknown cops, first in the book/spreadsheet since 801221 exactly 1 year ago on 9th March 2020!

Missing the BSK with 99205 and the rest of the HST.

I was only allowed 10 photos on the day, the LNER locos, Gordon + some LMS and BR kettles. Also only 1 loco in BR green - yes.

5 hours ago, AMJ said:

V2 No 4771 Green Arrow
The Lion.jpg
The Golden Arrow
The Flying Scotsman.jpg
Stanier class 5MT No 5000
SR Schools 4-4-0 925 Cheltenham
SR MN 35028 Clan Line
SR LN 4-6-0 850 Lord Nelson
Sir Nigel Gresley
Sans Pareil
S&DJR class 7F 2-8-0 LMS No 13809
Replica Rocket and coach
Princess Elizabeth
Princess Coronation class No 46229 Duchess of Hamilton
Novelty
NCB 0-6-0ST No. 7 Robert
NBR Class C 0-6-0 (LNER Class J36) No 673 Maude
MR 4-2-2 673
Midland Compound 4-4-0 No 1000
LNER Class A4 pacific No 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley
LMS Stanier Princess Coronation class pacific No 46229 Duchess Of Hamilton
LMS Stanier Princess class pacific No 6201 Princess Elizabeth
LMS Stanier Jubilee class 4-6-0 No 5690 Leander
LMS mogul 2-6-0 No 43106
LMS Jinty 0-6-0T No 7298
LMS class 5P5F 4-6-0 No 5000
LMS 4F 0-6-0 No 4027
L&NWR Precedent class 2-4-0 No 790 Hardwick
L&NWR Coal Tank 0-6-2T No 1054
L & Y Aspinall 0-6-0 Saddle Tank No 752
Inter City 125 train 253 034
GWR Castle class 4-6-0 No 5051
D1062 Western Courier
Class 56 56077
Class 40 No. 40 106
BR class 4MT tank engine No 80079
6201 Princess Elizabeth
55 015, 86 216 and 26020
47 581 "Great Eastern"
45 068
4498 Sir Nigel Gresley
4472 Flying Scotsman
43106 LMS Ivatt Class 4 locomotive 2-6-0
40 106
370 004
35028 Clan Line
26020
25 296
0-6-0 Saddle Tank

 

Nice but very loco centric, have you seen any info on support coaches etc.

Given they entered the tunnel via a fabled 'secret' entrance I was wondering if they found the Strategic Reserve.

3 hours ago, Davexoc said:

 

Doncaster build on BR1 bogies converted from Diag. 16 RF built 1952

3 bays in buffet saloon

Diag. 31 - SC1103 06/64-11/79 scrapped 10/80

                  SC1104 07/63-11/79 preserved

                  SC1105 06/64-11/79 preserved

 

So I guess this livery is ficticious....

 

I think Longworth may have used the withdrawal and/or storage dates of the RFs. as the rebuild dates, there are a number of photos of the RFs in storage and they look to have been there some time. Butlin had the re-entry dates as 1965 and Harris as 1966.

The BR green is prototypically correct for at least 2001 onwards. I saw it on a train at Clapham Junction in this condition.

44 minutes ago, DBC90024 said:

 

So on that basis trains go up to London and down to Glasgow.

 

That's crackers !!!

 

 

 

'Up' is towards the zero milepost, for the south end of most of the mainline  radial routes that is the relevant London Terminal. 

On 06/03/2021 at 07:22, Padishar Creel said:

Hallo,

Going back to this photo, I find it unusual that there are 2 catering vehicles in a WCML formation. Anyone out in RMWeb-Land who would know more. The info in Flickr (clicking on the pic takes you to the site) doesn't mention the working. I always associated that to ECML

Thanks in advance

es grüßt

pc 

 

I would assume that the second is a spare for a defective vehicle which they left in. I would not have thought that West Midland service would have had a need for two vehicles,  with the reduced journey times. 

The only timetables services in the 1980's which I am aware would have two restaurant vehicles in use would be the Manchester Pulmann (first Mk2z PFKs and them Mk3 RUB/RFB and Mk1 RKB).  The TSRB+TRUK pairing on HST - last disbanded 1984 and the pair of HST Pullman sets post 1985 (TRFB and TRFK) operated on the ECML.

The last plain RU went in the early 80's, including the air braked ones on the ECML.  After that all kitchen cars had buffet counters.

The Beryl and Cheryl Mk1 FO charter set in use in mid 1980's had two RBRs during this period they would have had a couple of FO's between them. 

10 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

I'm also tempted to fill windows and add a counter to the Bachmann RB. (There's a thread on it here somewhere) I'm slightly surprised they haven't produced their model in the updated version too as they were extremely prominent throughout the 80's.

 

 

The Bachmann is the RU (19xx), built without a counter.  I think Hornby now do an RB (16xx,17xx) which were built with counter. I am not certain what the RU in 00 is like but the early version of the Bach/GF RU they did as per the 1980's (including IC); when they retooled it  they only did the early version.

In terms of numbers there were something like 99 RBR(ex RB) and 23 RBR (ex RU). Given the allocation in the mid 1980's, on WCML services there was a split of about 25% ex RU and 75% ex RB

10 hours ago, Derekstuart said:

 

@hexagon789 thanks for the explanation. Tell me, was there a particular reason why Glasgow used to get the 87s and Edinburgh 86s? As I understand it the 86 was upgraded to 110MPH and so should have been interchangeable with the 87, but the 'rule' seemed to be applied with almost religious devotion.

 

Until the twilight year or two of locomotive operation on WCML, I'd never seen an 86 with MK3s. Likewise I don't think I ever saw an 87 go to Edinburgh. (though quite frankly I don't think ANY AC should have gone to Edinburgh- I really rather miss the run out from Carstairs with a Brush 4.)

The 86 rated to 110mph (1989) were 101-103, 209, 224-225, 231.

As far as I am aware there were very few ICWC services to Edinburgh, they were generally ICCC - so once the line from Carstairs was wired you would get ICCA sector locos. Since Class 87s were allocated to IWCA and 86s to mostly IEBA (Brum) and ICCA this is the reason why 87s may have predominated to Glasgow and 86 to Edinburgh.

11 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Almost - would be Mk1 BG (NHA) with B4 bogies, 2 Mk3A FO (not 3), Mk3A RFB (RUB with upclassed seating), 5 Mk3A TSO.

For May 84 there were 2 RFB (10015 and 10018) in IC livery the rest were still listed as b/g RUB. I don't think the 110mph BG were formally redefined as NH until late 84, before then they were NE with special maintenance. There is a lack of photo evidence so anything of the period is useful, particularly anything 110mph rated in blue grey.  

57 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

It would help if you actually said something. Being Dyslexic some people's comment make no sense, others are fine. Your post was in the former bracket.

6 hours ago, InterCitySpud said:

So to model a Glasgow service circa May 1984 a full set of MK3as with a Mk1 BG 3xFO RUB 5xSO Class 87 with correct pantograph of course!

 

So who models the most accurate MK1 BG for 110mph working, assuming it would be  commonwealth bogies? Also which services would generally use a MK1 RKB? Currently the most difficult catering vehicle of the time to represent.

The first BG with CW bogies (923xx) was converted in December 1985. They were only ever 100mph NEX and allocated to parcels services. The 110mph rated NHA were all B4 bogies.

In addition to the Manchester Pullmann services, RKB were on stock on peak services where they needed to serve a lot of full meals in as short as time as possible e.g. services to/from north of Stafford but not not likely cross border.  They may have been used as maintenance spares. Only 11 made into 1983.