City of Bradford

[Ian_H]

Hi,

 

Yesterday I purchased my first Hornby loco for over 20 years, a Coronation class "City of Bradford". It was a "spur of the moment" purchase, I was in a toy shop to purchase a Teddy Bear for my grand daughter and saw that they had a 20% of all Hornby and couldn't refuse. I'd seen photographs of the model previously and to be fair I have wanted a couple of Big Lizzies for a while now, I ordered the City of Liverpool while I was at it, I'll pick that up later in the week.

 

However having arrived home with my Big Lizzie and opened the box I'm somewhat disappointed by the quality from the side it looks okay but from above it's dreadful, there's a big seam down the length of the boiler, please see the attached photographs. This loco retails at £140.00, is this normal quality, it doesn't look like any progress has been made from the days of my 1969 Triang Hornby Britannia.

 

 

Clearly, I'm not happy with my purchase and it will go back but will a replacement be any better? taking note that they would have to order it from another store.

 

Perhaps I'm asking too much, your thought would be most welcome.

Ian

[farren]

The princess's both Royals and Coronations. Are based on old models both have had some upgrading in the last few years. But I think they are both in need of a being retired. Especially considering the price Hornby change for them. And a totally new model released

[Ian Hargrave]

Sorry but that's par for the course.Don't assume a replacement will be any improvement on that and many will find it acceptable...especially with that discount.This does not mean I disagree with your observations.It's just the way the world turns.Did you not think to ask to see it out of the box when you purchased it ?

[Wheatley]

The current tooling dates from 2001 and it's not based on the older tender drive loco (it's the right length for a start). My 2005 City of Carlisle has the same seam, but apart from the bit over the dome which I can live with, it's prototypically correct. There's a seam on the real ones too (actually a boiler cladding join):

 

http://ukrailways1970tilltoday.me.uk/Peterboroughsteamfour.html

[richard i]

I would clean up the dome which will leave a flat but slightly black section and then use weathering to prototypically lightly soot cover the top of the boiler. Then it will look better.

[Hilux5972]

You'll notice that the seam doesn't extend into the smokebox. as Wheatley says, it's is prototypical and correct, other than the dome, and in my opinion the model is more let down by its horrible Sled of a front bogie than anything else.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... is this normal quality, it doesn't look like any progress has been made from the days of my 1969 Triang Hornby Britannia...

 You can spend the money to far better effect within the Hornby range: the current Britannia will give a better indication of the progress since the 1969 item. (Overall I think this is the best pacific they offer, very good external appearance and a very good mechanism construction with plenty of weight for excellent traction.)

 

Hornby's LMS loco selection ows the least improvement of all that they produce. The tired Fowler 2P, 3F, 4F, 4P are still based on their dated and bought in toolings, and the Stanier 8F and 8P's retain features from the UK production era and look second best against their own and the main competitor's better product. The completely spurious valance above the springs on the frames of the 'Stanier' tender jabs me in the eye on all their product that uses this item. Why does the 8F have a spinning lay shaft end in a solid block where there should be airspace under the boiler? I could drone on.

 

It would need someone from within Hornby to tell exactly how the development of the present Duchess model occurred, during the shift from UK to Chinese production. Hornby having kicked off the newly tooled Chinese productions with quite a fanfare by the introduction of the Merchant Navy pacific, they went backward on the Duchess when a side by side comparison is made. Why an undersize centre driver, why the retention of the waggly bar bogie, why the more clumsy mouldings and reduced detail?

 

If it has to be a Hornby Stanier loco model, I'd nominate the 4P 2-6-4T as the pick of the crop.

[DonnyRailMan]

I would clean up the dome which will leave a flat but slightly black section and then use weathering to prototypically lightly soot cover the top of the boiler. Then it will look better.

 

Ian may not want to weather his locomotive though ???.

[ScRSG]

I personally think the basic Hornby Duchess is ok - it seems dimensionally correct and with the addition of a number of detailing parts, such as coal pusher, EWS bang plate and other bits, makes a perfectly acceptable model. Be careful with choice of tenders though! You may need Comet replacements depending on your choice of loco.

Pic of one of mine attached.

[MatthewCarty]

I personally think the basic Hornby Duchess is ok - it seems dimensionally correct and with the addition of a number of detailing parts, such as coal pusher, EWS bang plate and other bits, makes a perfectly acceptable model. Be careful with choice of tenders though! You may need Comet replacements depending on your choice of loco.

Pic of one of mine attached.IMGP0533.JPG

I would agree that the Duchess is reasonable, but I think the princess and 8F are in need of new tooling.

[Wheatley]

34theletterbetweenB&D, on 01 Nov 2016 - 13:31, said:

 You can spend the money to far better effect within the Hornby range: the current Britannia will give a better indication of the progress since the 1969 item ...  they went backward on the Duchess ... Why an undersize centre driver, why the retention of the waggly bar bogie, why the more clumsy mouldings and reduced detail?

 

The centre flange is reduced but the wheel diameter is not. The Britannia is gorgeous (one Brit and three Clans so far) but it's five years further on in development from the Duchess. It's also slightly smaller both in driving wheel diameter and coupled wheelbase, you have to compromise slightly if you want a long wheelbase with 6'9" drivers to go round 2nd radius curves. 

 

They have addressed the rear pony truck frames since the 2001 Duchess, the current one is way better in appearance.

[Clearwater]

The current tooling dates from 2001 and it's not based on the older tender drive loco (it's the right length for a start). My 2005 City of Carlisle has the same seam, but apart from the bit over the dome which I can live with, it's prototypically correct. There's a seam on the real ones too (actually a boiler cladding join):

 

http://ukrailways1970tilltoday.me.uk/Peterboroughsteamfour.html

How thoughtful and prescient of Sir William Stanier to build his loco with a seam that helps 21st century model rail injection moulding manufacturers!

[MikeParkin65]

On the plus side 46236 has by far the best rendition of the BR maroon that Hornby have offered and much finer lining than the last offering (46243). Whilst the seam has been present on all since the first release it is MUCH less prominent on earlier models - just checked my 46245 and 46232. I'm surprised neither Hornby nor Bachmann have seized the chance to replace this model - multiple name and livery combinations for the collectors market,  3 preserved examples one of which is very active on the mainline and preserved lines.

[Ian Hargrave]

The seam that irritates many is by no means confined to the Duchess.The A3 has offended many in this respect.....apart from the now infamous ski-slope . I think perhaps we have to learn to live with it ....or not as the case may be.As an aside,the positive comment regarding the LMR maroon livery interests me in complete contrast to their rendering of BR green which is contentious to say the least.You win some......you etc.etc.

[No Decorum]

Not learning to live with it, in my case. I have long avoided Hornby LNER pacifics because of the flangeless trailing wheels. Now that I have worked out a fix for them, the reports of warped chassis sends my spend elsewhere. I agree with you about the about the BR green. It lets the Britannia, an otherwise fine model, down a bucketful. In contrast, it’s only an empty wallet which stops me getting a Bachmann green Standard 2-6-4T. Beautiful model, beautiful finish. Only ever carried in preservation? I’d ignore that!

[Ian_H]

Hi and thank you for all your responses, I appreciate the time you've taken to give me your thoughts.

 

All the models I have purchased in recent years have all been purchased online and I've been happy with the quality of all of them, clearly in those circumstances it wasn't possible to inspect the item before purchase and with the current purchase, from a toy shop as opposed to a model shop, there wasn't the room to open the packaging and it was quite chaotic with people buying Halloween items and besides that I never thought to inspect it … my bad.

 

It is interesting to learn that the real Coronation class had a seam down the length of the boiler, I genuinely thought it was a manufacturing error. That knowledge has caused me to pause and think about what to do although, if I keep the loco, I don’t feel confident to clean up the dome and repaint but nevertheless the seam on the rest of the boiler is very large, I assume well over scale almost a fin!

 

If I return the model, it would seem (seam )there is little point in asking the toy shop to source another model of CoB the general opinion seems to indicate that it would be the same. Perhaps exchange for a different Hornby model, perhaps a black 5 (R3453) or the Duke of Gloucester (there are many .. but which one R3192?),  or just completely abandon Hornby, again your thoughts would be most welcomed.

 

Thanks

Ian

[MatthewCarty]

Hi and thank you for all your responses, I appreciate the time you've taken to give me your thoughts.

 

All the models I have purchased in recent years have all been purchased online and I've been happy with the quality of all of them, clearly in those circumstances it wasn't possible to inspect the item before purchase and with the current purchase, from a toy shop as opposed to a model shop, there wasn't the room to open the packaging and it was quite chaotic with people buying Halloween items and besides that I never thought to inspect it … my bad.

 

It is interesting to learn that the real Coronation class had a seam down the length of the boiler, I genuinely thought it was a manufacturing error. That knowledge has caused me to pause and think about what to do although, if I keep the loco, I don’t feel confident to clean up the dome and repaint but nevertheless the seam on the rest of the boiler is very large, I assume well over scale almost a fin!

 

If I return the model, it would seem (seam )there is little point in asking the toy shop to source another model of CoB the general opinion seems to indicate that it would be the same. Perhaps exchange for a different Hornby model, perhaps a black 5 (R3453) or the Duke of Gloucester (there are many .. but which one R3192?),  or just completely abandon Hornby, again your thoughts would be most welcomed.

 

Thanks

Ian

I couldn't comment on D of G, but the Black 5 is a slightly older model like the Duchess. It does have a slight visible seam along the top, but it is not as bad as the Duchess.Having said that, it still stands up remarkably well against some newer releases and is a brilliant runner!

[Ian Hargrave]

I couldn't comment on D of G, but the Black 5 is a slightly older model like the Duchess. It does have a slight visible seam along the top, but it is not as bad as the Duchess.Having said that, it still stands up remarkably well against some newer releases and is a brilliant runner!

Agree with this comment on the latest Black 5. It really is a fine runner and IMHO the best to date.However CAUTION here.Some are assembled with the dome wrong way round. Mine is OK but please this time if you do opt for one get the retailer to open the box for you just to make sure it's not 'one of those'.

[Ian Hargrave]

Of course,the Britannia has been recommended here too.I wholeheartedly support that .It is arguably if not the best then certainly up there with the best.It is accurate,well detailed and its haulage capacity is outstanding....in fact of the very best.

At the moment,you will find 70034/43/44 recently released by Hornby at excellent prices.All ran on the LMR ,though 70034 soon departed to Stratford after a spell at Longsight.. You may well negotiate a good deal as there seem plenty around.

[coachmann]

 If it has to be a Hornby Stanier loco model, I'd nominate the 4P 2-6-4T as the pick of the crop.

Fowler driving wheels. Should be bevel rim.

[MikeParkin65]

Of course,the Britannia has been recommended here too.I wholeheartedly support that .It is arguably if not the best then certainly up there with the best.It is accurate,well detailed and its haulage capacity is outstanding....in fact of the very best.

At the moment,you will find 70034/43/44 recently released by Hornby at excellent prices.All ran on the LMR ,though 70034 soon departed to Stratford after a spell at Longsight.. You may well negotiate a good deal as there seem plenty around.

The Britannia is a superb runner and will (unlike the prototype) haul far more than the Duchess. If you want the best of Hornby this is it. Royal Scot and Rebuilt Patriot also excellent if you can find one. If it's running quality you want though the best runners are the diesels, anything in a blue box for me.

[No Decorum]

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is to steer clear of the Duke of Gloucester. It was produced at a time when Hornby was trying to produce models as cheaply as possible. There are lots of features which compare unfavourably to the Britannias and it shares the Britannias’ muddy green colour. When it comes to running qualities, you might be lucky or you might not. The motors were inconsistent. Hornby has produced different versions of the Duke: some with simplified lining, some with tender pickups, some without. You would need to study the models carefully to be sure of what you were getting.

 

EDIT: I agree with the comments about the Black 5. Nice, if slightly dated model. Sometimes with its “hat” on crooked!

[Ian Hargrave]

On the plus side 46236 has by far the best rendition of the BR maroon that Hornby have offered and much finer lining than the last offering (46243). Whilst the seam has been present on all since the first release it is MUCH less prominent on earlier models - just checked my 46245 and 46232. I'm surprised neither Hornby nor Bachmann have seized the chance to replace this model - multiple name and livery combinations for the collectors market,  3 preserved examples one of which is very active on the mainline and preserved lines.

Just checked my two BR maroon examples....both weathered.The seams are not too bad .

46251 is a factory weathered version from about 2004.46226 is a reworked and weathered example from eBay some years ago and the seam is very effectively masked on that.

 

In contrast,I have just track tested a Bachmann A2. The seam is imperceptible.

[Ian_H]

Thank you for all the advice and info that you guys have provided. I took the City of Bradford back to the toy shop today, they also had the City of Liverpool waiting for me, I had ordered it at the weekend. Having explained my reason for returning the CoB they had a look at the problem for themselves and agreed that it was unacceptable, they also checked the City of Liverpool which they found to be same. The shop assistant then telephoned the Hornby Rep to enquire if he had any CoBs or CoLs that he could check the quality of with regard the seam. Apparently, the Rep was quite shocked by the size of the seam on his own samples. The toy shop had absolutely no problem in offering me my money back but I have declined this and asked them to order me a R3295 Earl Haig 70044 Britannia @ £130.00 less 20% because their sale has been extended. I'm very happy with this outcome, I was a little bit worried that the sales staff wouldn't understand the problem but they were great, couldn't ask for more and I think they deserve a mention; The toy shop was Toyland of Keighley and they also have branches in Halifax, Huddersfield and Blackpool and perhaps a few other stores.

[Ian Hargrave]

Thank you for all the advice and info that you guys have provided. I took the City of Bradford back to the toy shop today, they also had the City of Liverpool waiting for me, I had ordered it at the weekend. Having explained my reason for returning the CoB they had a look at the problem for themselves and agreed that it was unacceptable, they also checked the City of Liverpool which they found to be same. The shop assistant then telephoned the Hornby Rep to enquire if he had any CoBs or CoLs that he could check the quality of with regard the seam. Apparently, the Rep was quite shocked by the size of the seam on his own samples. The toy shop had absolutely no problem in offering me my money back but I have declined this and asked them to order me a R3295 Earl Haig 70044 Britannia @ £130.00 less 20% because their sale has been extended. I'm very happy with this outcome, I was a little bit worried that the sales staff wouldn't understand the problem but they were great, couldn't ask for more and I think they deserve a mention; The toy shop was Toyland of Keighley and they also have branches in Halifax, Huddersfield and Blackpool and perhaps a few other stores.

So very pleased you are happy with this outcome.As I posted yesterday,you have in fact managed a truly excellent price on 70044.Good choice!

I feel that in raising this issue you have done us all a service