Mansfield - a slow burner…

[Andy_C]

Hi all,

Rather than keep adding posts to the 'welcome' thread, I thought I'd start a new 'slow burner' on here. I've just spent an hour in the local library, with their OS maps from 1911/17, and also numerous photos from that era, and before/after. The photo's were simply amazing! I recall my grandfather telling me of 2-6-4's and 2-6-0's operating at Mansfield GCR station, but I also discovered Mansfield had a separate LNER station!

I also had a thought that the Steam TMD faced towards the central railway station, when in fact it faced away. How strange. The OS maps were very useful for visualising track layout, and also that next to the station was a goods building/yard, and a cattle yard. Instant idea!

One thing I did realise is the track will take further planning to bring in undulations and also some bridges/viaducts of some kind. I also came to the conclusion I could not do it justice in OO, as I don't have the space(board size is 10ft by 8 1/2 feet chaser, with a centre working area), so I'll further explore N gauge. I'm looking at cheating a little, in doing era 5 and 6, as when the sidings for goods were taken out, the main station was still in use for passengers but the line was heavily used for freight. Examples of the kind of freight is evident from the very large and excellent Shirebrook N Gauge Railway (an internet search will find photos).

I'm a month or two from breaking ground, but when the time is right, I'll start adding photos. There will be some artistic licence, but provided I can get the stock I'm thinking of...

I've also obtained Rail Modeller Pro for Mac. Seems very easy to use, so will give me chance to at least visualise what I'm trying to achieve.

Finally, a big thanks to those suggestions re local library and OS maps - it's not all on the internet!

Cheers for now,

Andy.

[t-b-g]

Very interest and right in my part of the world.

 

I have built a few layouts based on fictional "e=what ifs" based on the Mansfield area, giving both the LD&ECR and the GNR their own branch lines to the town.

 

Which of the stations will you be basing your model on?

 

My late father took a few photos at Mansfield, mainly at the Midland station but a couple at Mansfield Central.

 

I am attaching the ones that I have found and scanned in case they are of any interest.

[RedgateModels]

Hi Andy,

 

welcome

 

just to clarify, the lner station was the ex-gcr station. Just ask if you need any info, I have a bit of an archive, mainly gcr as I live right next to the old alignment just before the location of crown colliery

[t-b-g]

19 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Hi Andy,

 

welcome

 

just to clarify, the lner station was the ex-gcr station. Just ask if you need any info, I have a bit of an archive, mainly gcr as I live right next to the old alignment just before the location of crown colliery

 

I have often wondered about visiting Mansfield to have a search for remains of the GCR line but looking on Google Earth suggests that there is very little left to see. If you are local to the area, can you say if there is anything worth the trip?

 

I have been to have a look at the Midland bits, including the old loco shed. 

[RedgateModels]

Just now, t-b-g said:

 

I have often wondered about visiting Mansfield to have a search for remains of the GCR line but looking on Google Earth suggests that there is very little left to see. If you are local to the area, can you say if there is anything worth the trip?

 

I have been to have a look at the Midland bits, including the old loco shed. 

you are right, most of the gcr in town has all gone, there are small remnants here and there. If you move away from the centre more remains. Where we are the embankment is still there as it was in use until the 1980’s as a headshunt into the colliery for example. 

[Andy_C]

The station and goods yards I remember are those that used to be not far from the site of the current Robin Hood Line station. The OS maps I’ve retrieved show this well, and give me really good scope for a layout. My perspective on scale needs some enhancing ie I need to get engrained how long coaches in N are. I sense a visit to a couple of local’ish shops on the cards. (Rails of Sheffield and Digitrains at Lincoln). 
 

I also need to start understanding the board layout considerations better. Immediately north/east of the station is the viaduct. There was a goods yard and cattle area immediately south of platform 2, with sidings servicing that area. The TMD for steam was further west, so there may need to be some artistic licence to incorporate that. No diesels we’re maintained there from what I can see - all that was done at Shirebrook/Toton etc?

 

As for visiting, there is very little left. I’ve biked a lot of the pit railways, and walked next to the line up near Thoresby pit. There is a really good example of a signal box up there. There is some talk of the line being considered for passenger traffic again, but that looks a way off.

[Flying Pig]

I can't link it directly, but the signal diagram for Mansfield Central is on this page:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/LNERDiagrams.htm

 

You might also find this page interesting if you haven't already seen it:

 

https://www.lner.info/co/GCR/mansfield/mansfield.php

[Kris]

On 27/01/2022 at 12:57, Andy_C said:

I've also obtained Rail Modeller Pro for Mac. Seems very easy to use, so will give me chance to at least visualise what I'm trying to achieve.
 

You can drop images onto the base to enable you to get a more accurate layout. 

[Andy_C]

On 27/01/2022 at 20:49, Flying Pig said:

I can't link it directly, but the signal diagram for Mansfield Central is on this page:

 

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/LNERDiagrams.htm

That is excellent. It helps me with the points needed, too. Thank you very much for taking the time to share the link.

 

[t-b-g]

On 27/01/2022 at 18:13, Andy_C said:

The station and goods yards I remember are those that used to be not far from the site of the current Robin Hood Line station. The OS maps I’ve retrieved show this well, and give me really good scope for a layout. My perspective on scale needs some enhancing ie I need to get engrained how long coaches in N are. I sense a visit to a couple of local’ish shops on the cards. (Rails of Sheffield and Digitrains at Lincoln). 
 

I also need to start understanding the board layout considerations better. Immediately north/east of the station is the viaduct. There was a goods yard and cattle area immediately south of platform 2, with sidings servicing that area. The TMD for steam was further west, so there may need to be some artistic licence to incorporate that. No diesels we’re maintained there from what I can see - all that was done at Shirebrook/Toton etc?

 

As for visiting, there is very little left. I’ve biked a lot of the pit railways, and walked next to the line up near Thoresby pit. There is a really good example of a signal box up there. There is some talk of the line being considered for passenger traffic again, but that looks a way off.

 

If the station being considered is off the end of a viaduct and near the site of the present Robin Hood station, might it be the Midland one rather than the Central station that is being remembered? The Midland had a loco shed in Mansfield, facing away from the station just as described (Last time I visited the shed was still standing but surrounded by modern buildings and tricky to see) but I don't recall any loco shed on the GCR line.

 

So I am just wondering if there is a bit of confusion over the two stations and that you are recalling the Midland line rather than the GCR/LNER one.

Edited January 29, 2022 by t-b-g
typo

[Andy_C]

19 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

If the station being considered is off the end of a viaduct and near the site of the present Robin Hood station, might it be the Midland one rather than the Central station that is being remembered? The Midland had a loco shed in Mansfield, facing away from the station just as described (Last time I visited the shed was still standing but surrounded by modern buildings and tricky to see) but I don't recall any loco shed on the GCR line.

Hi there. You are quite right. I’m considering a 50’s - 60’s era version of the station you describe. The images show the station front, and the viaduct. I’ll post another image of the station with the glass canopy.

 

https://www.ourmansfieldandarea.org.uk/content/topics/transport/mansfield-town-station

 

This shows under the canopy.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Andy_C

[Andy_C]

As above…

 

Bottom left is the single track that looks round that side of the station Feeding a goods building, and also further round a cattle siding. Lots of scope for a layout. I will struggle to achieve the standards of some layouts on here, but it will be a fun time trying. All photos courtesy of Mansfield library  and can be reproduced. This train is going north, towards Worksop. 
 

Something else occurred to me - I also have the choice to model in effect from the station when going towards Sutton, and not do the viaduct. This would then clearly include all the sidings, and the steam shed. The configuration of the shed puzzled me until I saw the wider os plans. Then it made sense, so rt of - no turntable as there was a triangle/loop where the trains could be turned round if needed? I don’t have room to model that aspect. 
 

I’ll continue with my research and once the room is ready I’ll decide. I’m settled on the era.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Andy_C

[Willie Whizz]

Just found this thread, and sorry but it does indeed appear confusing to readers (well, certainly to me!) what it is you're actually proposing to model.

 

The pictures you posted on 29 January are of what was in BR days 'Mansfield Town' Station - the ex-Midland/ex-LMS/BR London Midland Region station on which the main (but not all) passenger traffic ran from Nottingham Midland to Worksop, along much (but not all) of the route opened in the 1940s and 1860s which is now the Robin Hood Line,   There was a small overall roof, fairly extensive sidings and a medium-sized loco depot.

 

The ex-Great Central/ex-LNER/BR Eastern Region station was/is usually known as 'Mansfield Central' (although curiously it appeared in many timetables and on the station running-in boards only as 'Mansfield' for much of its life).  This was completed during the First World War as part of the 'Mansfield Railway', developed by an independent company with considerable support from the local coal-owners - who had been hoping in vain for about two decades that another railway company would break the inefficient Midland monopoly.  The GC worked it in return for a cut of the profits.  The line ran from Kirkby South Junction on the GC to Clipstone on the former LD & EC and the main passenger traffic ran from Nottingham Victoria to Mansfield, sometimes onward to Edwinstowe, or Ollerton, ceasing in 1956, though the line remained fully open till the late 60s and colliery traffic continued at the eastern end until early in the present century..  There were two small interim stations at Kirkby and Sutton, both of which, confusingly, do always seem to have been called 'Central'!  Mansfield Central station buildings were on a high embankment near where the main local Police Station now stands; it had a bay platform, spacious single-story goods shed and several sidings, but no loco depot.  The colliery traffic was mostly handled elsewhere, at concentration sidings towards Clipstone.

 

If you want big express engines hauling lengthy expresses this is not the real-life location for you, but there was still a lot of interesting traffic, including long smelly fish trains.  Even towards their ends, neither line ever saw much of DMUs.  For rolling stock and locos, in R-T-R terms Central is probably the easier proposition currently.

 

I myself am modelling (painfully slowly it seems at times) something broadly based on one of the "Might Have Been" proposals for Central from the early 1900s, though space constraints are having to make it a terminus.  I wish you success.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Willie Whizz

[Andy_C]

On 05/02/2022 at 13:37, Willie Whizz said:

Just found this thread, and sorry but it does indeed appear confusing to readers (well, certainly to me!) what it is you're actually proposing to model.

 

The pictures you posted on 29 January are of what was in BR days 'Mansfield Town' Station - the ex-Midland/ex-LMS/BR London Midland Region station on which the main (but not all) passenger traffic ran from Nottingham Midland to Worksop, along much (but not all) of the route opened in the 1940s and 1860s which is now the Robin Hood Line,   There was a small overall roof, fairly extensive sidings and a medium-sized loco depot.

 

The ex-Great Central/ex-LNER/BR Eastern Region station was/is usually known as 'Mansfield Central' (although curiously it appeared in many timetables and on the station running-in boards only as 'Mansfield' for much of its life).  This was completed during the First World War as part of the 'Mansfield Railway', developed by an independent company with considerable support from the local coal-owners - who had been hoping in vain for about two decades that another railway company would break the inefficient Midland monopoly.  The GC worked it in return for a cut of the profits.  The line ran from Kirkby South Junction on the GC to Clipstone on the former LD & EC and the main passenger traffic ran from Nottingham Victoria to Mansfield, sometimes onward to Edwinstowe, or Ollerton, ceasing in 1956, though the line remained fully open till the late 60s and colliery traffic continued at the eastern end until early in the present century..  There were two small interim stations at Kirkby and Sutton, both of which, confusingly, do always seem to have been called 'Central'!  Mansfield Central station buildings were on a high embankment near where the main local Police Station now stands; it had a bay platform, spacious single-story goods shed and several sidings, but no loco depot.  The colliery traffic was mostly handled elsewhere, at concentration sidings towards Clipstone.

 

If you want big express engines hauling lengthy expresses this is not the real-life location for you, but there was still a lot of interesting traffic, including long smelly fish trains.  Even towards their ends, neither line ever saw much of DMUs.  For rolling stock and locos, in R-T-R terms Central is probably the easier proposition currently.

 

I myself am modelling (painfully slowly it seems at times) something broadly based on one of the "Might Have Been" proposals for Central from the early 1900s, though space constraints are having to make it a terminus.  I wish you success.

Hi there,

 

your summary is spot on. I have photos of various passenger trains at the Mansfield Town station at least 8 coaches long, from the era in question. I won’t be running rakes longer than 8 coaches. More likely 4-6 and being pulled by 3MT’s and similar. There was plenty of freight going thru there, which was pulled by all sorts of early (Era5) Diesels. So, plenty of scope for interpretation on my layout. The viaduct will be partially represented to the north, but will need to curve due to the 10 x 8.5ft I have available. To the south I’ll incorporate the Southwell part of the line, again to facilitate a loop. The other side of the board have a TMS and sidings. I may fully cheat and model the siding on an interpretation of Kirkby Summit. 

[Andy_C]

For clarity, here is a rare shot of the Mansfield Town Stn, looking south towards Nottingham.

 

The actual size of the sidings and goods shed to the left on the 1st image is staggering, imv. 
 

Plenty of scope for interpretation. I’ll need to judge the platform lengths(they were stone, as were the buildings, btw), will take some thought and further research…

 

The other 2 show the TMS.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Andy_C

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Andy_C said:

The actual size of the sidings and goods shed to the left on the 1st image is staggering, imv.

 

Not unusual for an mid-sized town in the steam era.  We forget how much was conveyed by rail and how much land consequently disappeared under sidings.

 

If you were really short for space, the north end of the station would make a good 'bitsa', constrained by the train shed and the goods shed at one end, though you'd need to find a view blocker for the viaduct at the other.  

[Andy_C]

19 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Not unusual for an mid-sized town in the steam era.  We forget how much was conveyed by rail and how much land consequently disappeared under sidings.

 

If you were really short for space, the north end of the station would make a good 'bitsa', constrained by the train shed and the goods shed at one end, though you'd need to find a view blocker for the viaduct at the other.  

True. I’m going to use a bit of artistic licence, tho. This layout isn’t for exhibitions. It’s for my own use, so I may do the viaduct as a curve from the north of the station. The sidings will hopefully be more authentic. The TmS and the other side of the layout is still being thought about.

 

The adage of the track plan never bring fully settled is very apt. 
 

I have 10ft to play with, in N gauge, so I reckon I can do the station, and then the Southwell curve straight after it. Whether my modelling capabilities match my planning is another matter! 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Andy_C

[Andy_C]

Here is a track plan that is a few weeks old. It’s evolved a bit more since this version, but you’ll get the idea.

 

The plan doesnt show the baseboard levels. They will take some thinking out. The yard will be one level. Going clockwise the left side track will be on a higher level than the space next to it, on the top of a banking. The points and the left stride of the station need to be higher to allow a Road to go under them (I know about point motor access etc), and then the right hand side track will be higher to accommodate a viaduct as that curve straightens out. 
 

So, thoughts?

 

Any hints and tips re baseboard construction welcome. The max size board I can get in my motor is 5x3 ft.

 

I’ll publish the latest plan once I’ve tinkered with it a bit more.

[t-b-g]

One thing to think about is whether or not you wish to operate your layout like the real Mansfield.

 

In the photo taken from the air, you can see to the top right, a set of sidings which you have not got on your plan. These were carriage sidings. Many trains either started or terminated at mansfield, which is why what looks like a through station had a loco shed and carriage sidings.

 

If your intention is to run your trains from the fiddle yard round and back to the fiddle yard, then you will have an operating pattern quite unlike the real place. That may or may not matter to you at all but I thought I would mention it in case you were not aware.

 

In pre-grouping days, I am sure I remember reading that there were 7 different routes to and from Mansfield and that the station had something like 150 arrivals and departures every day (which was more than St Pancras!) but that only 4 of these actually went through and didn't terminate or start there.

 

Some of these services were not very well used and were withdrawn very early, some as early as the 1920s.

 

In later days there was a through Nottingham to Worksop service, usually a tank loco and 3 or 4 carriages.

 

All regular trains were local and of around 3 carriages with a tank loco or perhaps a 4-4-0 tender loco and any longer trains seen would have been excursions. There were not, to my knowledge, any regular express services that ran either to, or through, Mansfield Midland station.

 

There have been a few articles on Mansfield such as one in the Jan 1995 "Backtrack" Vol 9, No. 1 wjch have further details and some photos. 

[Andy_C]

13 hours ago, t-b-g said:

One thing to think about is whether or not you wish to operate your layout like the real Mansfield.

 

In the photo taken from the air, you can see to the top right, a set of sidings which you have not got on your plan. These were carriage sidings. Many trains either started or terminated at mansfield, which is why what looks like a through station had a loco shed and carriage sidings.

 

If your intention is to run your trains from the fiddle yard round and back to the fiddle yard, then you will have an operating pattern quite unlike the real place. That may or may not matter to you at all but I thought I would mention it in case you were not aware.

 

In pre-grouping days, I am sure I remember reading that there were 7 different routes to and from Mansfield and that the station had something like 150 arrivals and departures every day (which was more than St Pancras!) but that only 4 of these actually went through and didn't terminate or start there.

 

Some of these services were not very well used and were withdrawn very early, some as early as the 1920s.

 

In later days there was a through Nottingham to Worksop service, usually a tank loco and 3 or 4 carriages.

 

All regular trains were local and of around 3 carriages with a tank loco or perhaps a 4-4-0 tender loco and any longer trains seen would have been excursions. There were not, to my knowledge, any regular express services that ran either to, or through, Mansfield Midland station.

 

There have been a few articles on Mansfield such as one in the Jan 1995 "Backtrack" Vol 9, No. 1 wjch have further details and some photos. 

Hi,

 

Thanks for your response. You make a good point re the carriage sidings, but I can’t fit it all in! I fully accept my plan is a compromise re authenticity, but I also have lots of photos from the era I’m aiming at,  showing all sorts going thru/terminating there. 
 

The sidings immediately below the station are for goods. The fiddle yard at the bottom of the plan is for obvious reasons, but will also be weathered and lit as such. Plenty of freight.

[Andy_C]

13 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

[Harlequin]

15 hours ago, Andy_C said:

Here is a track plan that is a few weeks old. It’s evolved a bit more since this version, but you’ll get the idea.

 

The plan doesnt show the baseboard levels. They will take some thinking out. The yard will be one level. Going clockwise the left side track will be on a higher level than the space next to it, on the top of a banking. The points and the left stride of the station need to be higher to allow a Road to go under them (I know about point motor access etc), and then the right hand side track will be higher to accommodate a viaduct as that curve straightens out. 
 

So, thoughts?

 

Any hints and tips re baseboard construction welcome. The max size board I can get in my motor is 5x3 ft.

 

I’ll publish the latest plan once I’ve tinkered with it a bit more.

 

The boards might be too big to handle comfortably, especially if some of them are multi-level. The 3ft wide boards probably slightly too big to reach across when/if up again a wall.

 

Are the facing crossovers on the left of the station prototypical? Sorry, I don't know Mansfield at all.

 

There is no crossover on the left side of the fiddle yard and without it, it's not possible for a train that entered the yard in the anti-clockwise direction to appear later running clockwise.

 

The fiddle yard loop sizes vary a lot and you could probably make a parallelogram yard with slightly longer and more equal loop lengths if you wanted.

 

Edit: There isn't very much track length to get a significant height difference between the goods yard and the station. At 1in 30, the absolute steepest you'd ever want to use, you'd probably get less that 10mm elevation change, taking transitions into account.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Harlequin

[Andy_C]

Harlequin.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Here is a more recent plan. 
 

There are crossover points on the original plans. I’ve added the crossover etc to access the good yard. You were right re your comment re trains in/out - I’d missed a couple of points on the plan. 
 

The 2nd/3rd loop platform is actually scale width at its widest point. I have photos that corroborate how wide that platform was. When I started my research with an ideal to try doing the station, I had no idea how much railway there was around, and I live here!

[Harlequin]

Hi Andy,

 

I just looked at Mansfield on the NLS website and on the 1917 map (the only map showing the station with enough resolution to see the track layout) the crossovers to the west are indeed all trailing as I'd expect, not facing as you have them.

 

You really need to find a signalling diagram to see the technicalities of the station plan.

 

 

[Andy_C]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Andy,

 

I just looked at Mansfield on the NLS website and on the 1917 map (the only map showing the station with enough resolution to see the track layout) the crossovers to the west are indeed all trailing as I'd expect, not facing as you have them.

 

You really need to find a signalling diagram to see the technicalities of the station plan.

 

 

I have. Can you expand on what you mean by trailing v facing?