EM Hornby HST (3 Pole Ringfield) - Conversion to dual powered bogies, DCC Sound and cosmetic updates.

[NFWEM57]

Latest video uploaded! 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by NFWEM57
typo

[Cowley 47521]

What an interesting project. Really enjoyed reading through the thread and watching the videos. Great work.

[NFWEM57]

Dummy Car Conversion and 7 Coach  Conversion and Load Test

 

Finally finished the dummy car and re-wheeled 7 Mk 3 coaches.

 

The dummy car was fairly simple and complete in a few hours. 

 

 

 

 

Conversion of the seven Mk3 coaches was easier than expected.  I swapped out the generic Hornby wheels for Alan Gibson 12mm coach wheels with disc pads, they look far better.  And with a slight modification to the pin points they dropped in with just enough clearance inside the bogie frame and ran freely.   The Hornby axle is actually 24.9mm where as the Alan Gibson axle is 25.9mm. Instead of opening out the bogie bearing I just trimmed the pin point, worked very well.  It is not possible to use the original wheels as they are 2.5mm wide, the AG ones are 2.3mm.  The 0.4mm made all the difference.  

 

I tried Hunt couplings at first but after frequent derailing's, I switched back the Hornby close couplings.  My 34" radius EM test track a little too tight but my planned layout minimum radius (on the helix) will be 4ft or more so they will work there.

 

I have uploaded a video of two power cars and 7 Mk 3 coaches. 

 

 

During initial testing I took the weight out of the dummy car and I think a little more weight is needed in the power car to aid traction; there is room  for some additional weight where the motor is mounted.  Otherwise, project complete.  I will upload the 'how to' guide in the next few days.

 

Enjoy the video.  Peak speed in the video is 60mph.

 

 

 

Patrick

[NFWEM57]

Conversion Guidance Draft V0.1

 

As promised, the conversion guidance in pdf format. 

 

Constructive feedback welcome.

 

RMWeb Hornby Class 43 HST Conversion.pdf

 

Patrick

[NFWEM57]

Adding Weight for Traction

 

The newer Hornby HST has a cast chassis whilst this conversion has a plastic chassis.  During initial load testing I found there was some wheel slip and clearly additional weight is needed.  In a rather timely manner, McKinley Railway have put a new video on their website which is all about adding loco weight; Video No 60.  A very informative video and doing a bit of math I worked out that they add weight to their locos to achieve about 85~100 grams per axle up from the 70 grams per axle as manufactured.

 

The final weight for the power car in this conversion is around 275 grams which is 70 grams per axle.  So, I intend to add about 85 grams additional weight to bring the weight per axle up to 90 grams.  There are a number of options on how to do this and these include:

• Replacing the 2mm thick plastic insert underneath the motor with a lead insert - 20 grams
• Adding a 1.8mm lead square underneath the Carden shafts - 30 grams total
• Adding two 1.8mm thick lead rectangular sheets underneath the decoder raft  - 50 grams
• Add two layers of lead sheet to the top of the decoder raft - 30 grams
• Adding tyre balance weights (5  and 10 grams) to the top and bottom of the decoder raft - 85 grams, 20 to 40 on top, the remainder underneath.

Obviously, the steel tyre balance weights are preferable from a health and safety perspective but, where space is at a premium, lead might be the only choice.   If purchasing lead sheet I found that the 1.8mm thick variety is 20% of the cost of the 0.5mm variety...!

 

Given that the motor used in this conversion is the one used in the latest (heavier) Hornby HST, the additional weight should not be a problem.

 

Now moving to the next project, upgrading my test track (OO EM, N) to take the latest all rail turnout offerings from British Finescale;  N gauge C10, OO gauge B7,  EM gauge 1:7 Diamond and 1:7 Double Slip along with 3 B7s.  I will be using a new servo mount I discovered on the Bexhill West website which, in a neat little module, translates rotational motion of the servo into linear motion for moving the tie bar.   No involvement with product developer.

 

Patrick

[The Fatadder]

Out of interest what made you choose the old Hornby powercar as opposed to the Lima one as a basis?

 

I think while it has a couple of issues (notably the cab roof above the windscreen) it captures the look a lot better.

 

Interesting to see the approach to the chassis, I have quite a few spare Lima powercars that I’ve been improving.  The first pair have gained a full new Hornby chassis.  But I think I will be now starting to repower some more…

 

Something else that would certainly add a big improvement is to look at the underframe details, the crude Hornby box can be replaced with 3d printed parts from Midland Valenta (I think they trade through eBay and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MidlandValenta

[NFWEM57]

7 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Out of interest what made you choose the old Hornby powercar as opposed to the Lima one as a basis?

Hi,

 

Lack of knowledge..!!  Only returned to railway modelling after a 50 year gap a few years ago and to be honest 50 years ago I wasn't modelling, I was playing with train sets..! And I was not really aware that Lima made a HST.

 

On taking up the hobby again, I wanted to do two things, model a real location and use a more prototypical gauge.  The real location is actually on the west country main line and so for the most part, formations will be whizzing through at speed.  Whilst I will try to replicate the location as closely as possible, as most rolling stock will be travelling through at speed, I can compromise on that aspect.   And as Iain Rice states in the opening lines of his excellent book "Layout Design", it is about compromise and deception, the two aids without which the eternal circle of realistic railway modelling can never be squared.   So, my conversion is not perfect, but I achieved what I wanted to do.   The period for my planned layout is 1960~1975 so HSTs were really an after thought and, given they are in abundance for peanuts on eBay, I thought I would give one a go.  In addition, it is availability of parts.  New old style Hornby HST chassis' can be picked up for £3 and the latest bogies and motors are (usually) available.  This means I can sell on the old chassis and bogies complete.

 

And there is another factor in my choice of drive system, the ease in which it can be converted to EM gauge and pulling power.  Replacement wheel sets for Ringfield or similar drives are not cheap, circa £25, and you are still left with a rather noisy mechanism, CD motor conversions help (£15) but pulling power is not great.  A centrally mounted drive motor and driven bogies provides the required power and conversion to EM is simple, just longer 2mm axles.   And then you sell on the original bogies.  Nearly all my diesel conversions use Ultrascale but some older Hornby class 37s and Lima Class 47s use a similar approach to this.  My steam conversion are a little more complex, especially the split chassis variants.

 

But you have now sparked my interest interest and I might well try the same conversion using Hornby parts on a Lima Power and Dummy car; if I can pick up at a donor set at a reasonable price.  But, you may know this, is it possible to fit the Lima body shell on to a Hornby chassis?

 

Thank you for your interest.  Good luck with your conversion.  If I had a Lima one to hand now I would convert it an write up a second article.

 

Regards,

 

Patrick

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by NFWEM57
clarity and additional info

[APT Fan]

On 03/05/2022 at 20:39, NFWEM57 said:

As promised a video at the link and more detail of the conversion.  The loco 

 

I was not entirely happy with the raft arrangement so I redesigned and fitted to a new chassis, I have a few spares, hence the delay.  I also completed the lighting arrangement but, following discussions with Stephen at Black Cat, I will fit modified version of his product.   The glazing is not yet fitted as I am going to fit flush glaze but the loco is otherwise almost complete.  Next on the list is the unpowered car.  I stay alive will be required as the TTS decoder fitted restarts at very opportunity..!  A few images of the final conversion.

 

 

 

Have you now resolved all of the TTS restart issues? I had a go at converting one of these to DCC using TTS decoders myself recently. I gave up mainly because of this issue, fitting a stay alive didn't completely fix it, the only solution was a second decoder for the motor. Then I wasn't happy with the pulling peformance, so I sold up and replaced it with an R3957.

[NFWEM57]

Hi APT Fan,

 

Yes. all resolved. j Jst need to add a little extra weight to overcome very slight wheel slip with 7 coaches plus dummy car on quite a punishing  EM gauge test track.  The issue was a pickup inside a bogie had become detached on one side so no picks up apart from one bogie.   I designed the stay alive which provides up to 1.5 seconds of run on without track power at speed with sound.   The Ringfield would not have coped, nor a CD replacement, central motor and both bogies driven the only solution, which is what Hornby did.  I just did not want to pay £500 for the privilege when I achieved my aim for far less.  it is not as detailed as the latest version but on my layout it will simply be whizzing through a main line junction station...!

 

Give it another go, the note explains all.

 

Regards,

 

Patrick

[MJI]

Lima power cars are NESW (later version) and the Hornby GWML and ECML.

 

Mine are all Hornby as they all match and no repainting required.

 

My Joueffs will hang behind an 87

[NFWEM57]

I am just trying to obtain a Lima variant to see the art of the possible...

[NFWEM57]

On 20/05/2022 at 10:16, APT Fan said:

replaced it with an R3957

Out of interest, what does the power car weigh on the kitchen scales?

[NFWEM57]

On 23/05/2022 at 10:20, NFWEM57 said:

Out of interest, what does the power car weigh on the kitchen scales?

No matter, another source told me..!

 

Power Car on latest model is 520 grams so my conversion some 275 grams light...!   Don't think I will require that much more weight for good adhesion but good to have a reference as to what the motor can handle.

 

Patrick 

Edited May 28, 2022 by NFWEM57
added additional info

[Downendian]

What a fantastic project. Well done indeed Patrick, I’ve accrued multiple Lima Power cars over the years, I may well be doing similar in the next few years. 
Neil 

[NFWEM57]

1 hour ago, Downendian said:

What a fantastic project. Well done indeed Patrick, I’ve accrued multiple Lima Power cars over the years, I may well be doing similar in the next few years. 
Neil 

If i can get my hands on a lima set I'll undertake a conversion and write it up.

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

Patrick

[APT Fan]

3 hours ago, NFWEM57 said:

No matter, another source told me..!

 

Power Car on latest model is 520 grams so my conversion some 275 grams light...!   Don't think I will require that much more weight for good adhesion but good to have a reference.

 

Patrick 

 

Hi,

After your post, I went into the kitchen to look for the scales which are kept in a 'magic' corner kitchen cabinet. Unfortunately as I opened the cabinet it failed and the bearings exploded all over the place. The strip down and replacement turned into quite a big job which I've literally only just finished tonight, so forgive me if I got a little bit distracted!

 

So I didn't get around to checking the weight but it feels very heavy even campared to my Hornby 56. Got it a couple of weeks ago from a European retailer who still has them in stock for around £235 + the duties, so about £290 delivered.

 

I actually had two of those models of the same type that you've converted but I sold both of them this week! So it seems like they are still popular but I think the original Inter City 125 livery is still the best.

👍  

[NFWEM57]

12 hours ago, APT Fan said:

After your post, I went into the kitchen to look for the scales which are kept in a 'magic' corner kitchen cabinet. Unfortunately as I opened the cabinet it failed and the bearings exploded all over the place. The strip down and replacement turned into quite a big job which I've literally only just finished tonight, so forgive me if I got a little bit distracted!

 

Hi,

 

Sorry to hear about the Kitchen cupboard and thank you for trying to measure.   Not good but glad you have resolved.  Sounds like you got a bargain for your HST.   I prefer the original livery, which I have memories of from my teen years in the west country, and the latest GWR green. My planned layout 1960~1975 and western mainline through Norton Fitzwarren which had branches to Minehead and Barnstable.   So last of the steam through to start of HST.

 

Yes, the older HST models are still popular.  But my goal was for realistic length rakes without the Ringfield noise..!  CD motor would probably not cope with the load and you still need EM wheels sets at £25 a go on top of the £15 CD motor conversion kit.  So, for just a little extra you can buy the new bogies and motor and simply fit new EM length axles (22.5mm).  There is a market for the old bogies as well. so you can recoup a lot of the outlay.   I am doing a similar conversion to old Hornby Class 37s and Lima Class 47s. Once again, just need new axles.

 

Enjoy your new HST.

 

Patrick 

[APT Fan]

1 hour ago, NFWEM57 said:

 

Hi,

 

Sorry to hear about the Kitchen cupboard and thank you for trying to measure.   Not good but glad you have resolved.  Sounds like you got a bargain for your HST.   I prefer the original livery, which I have memories of from my teen years in the west country, and the latest GWR green. My planned layout 1960~1975 and western mainline through Norton Fitzwarren which had branches to Minehead and Barnstable.   So last of the steam through to start of HST.

 

Yes, the older HST models are still popular.  But my goal was for realistic length rakes without the Ringfield noise..!  CD motor would probably not cope with the load and you still need EM wheels sets at £25 a go on top of the £15 CD motor conversion kit.  So, for just a little extra you can buy the new bogies and motor and simply fit new EM length axles (22.5mm).  There is a market for the old bogies as well. so you can recoup a lot of the outlay.   I am doing a similar conversion to old Hornby Class 37s and Lima Class 47s. Once again, just need new axles.

 

Enjoy your new HST.

 

Patrick 

 

Thanks,

 

Replacement cupboard is in now and very nice it is too. In fact I don't think it has ever operated as well, perhaps it wasn't fitted as well as it should have been in the first place, all sorted now though. The day after the cupboard failed, the fan element in the oven exploded and caught fire, looked like a Catherine wheel as the fan was still operating. Smoke everywhere and the RCD tripped. The replacement element arrived this morning, so that's now been fitted and the oven has been returned to service. All of this is distracting me from the loft conversion I'm carrying out in which I intend to have a large enough layout to do justice for both my HST for which I've got at least 7 coaches and my 9 car APT. WCML is what I'm thinking about so I'm applying a bit of artistic license with the HST, right era though!

 

I've carried out quite a lot of DCC conversions of older loco's and really enjoyed the process. However because I'm into updating the lighting to LED at the same time I'm finding it hasn't been the cheapest way to get there. For example a Class 56 requires 12 leds plus wiring, fibre optics and connectors etc. I bought a new Hornby 56 for £99 and recently a new 87 for £130, I notice the R3957 is returning to stock and some deals are available. I've also seen deals for the Hornby Railroad Class 43 HST Pack BR Blue R3608, not necessarily new. It's a relatively recent model with reasonable detail, I have a feeling that it uses the Lima tooling but I think it would be absolutely perfect for this project.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by APT Fan

[NFWEM57]

10 hours ago, APT Fan said:

However because I'm into updating the lighting to LED at the same time I'm finding it hasn't been the cheapest way to get there.

Yes, I have been doing this on old stock before selling on.  I bought in bulk which brings the cost down quite a bit.  I also have a bespoke circuit which allows the red running lights to be switched on or off (when lighting is selected) using just one aux output.  Using an 8 pin decoder with just 2 aux connections I can get directional running lights and directional cab lights (Aux 2) with switchable red (Aux 1).  And all the lights are adjustable independent of the decoder.   Similar circuit used in the HST but no need for switchable red.  Circuit is in the download. 

 

Black Cat and other do a range of small PCBs with SMD LEDs which might make the process simpler but not necessarily cheaper.  I am going to try a bespoke home made PCB with SMD LEDS in future which cost around £1 per PCB.  For cab lights I use a 5cm section of the 12V LED strips which cost 10p a section; bought a few 5 metre reels to light all my coaching stock.

Edited May 28, 2022 by NFWEM57
typo

[NFWEM57]

I have just acquired a Lima HST set and will attempt conversion after I have undertaken 2 long overdue tasks on my lengthy project list, updating my test track to fit the British Finescale EM gauge B7 double slip and B7 crossing and swapping out all the point motors for Make It Miniature linear turnout actuators.  Second task is to finish off 5MT conversion to EM to test the new track.  Then on to the Lima HST conversion.  Only have one shot as spare chassis for Lima HSTs re not freely available as they were for the old Hornby HST; no way i am paying £20 wanted by some vendors...!

 

I will write up as I did for the Hornby conversion.

 

Patrick

Edited June 11, 2022 by NFWEM57
added additional info

[NFWEM57]

Hi, 

 

I will start a new thread for the Lima HST Conversion.

 

Regards,

 

Patrick