Some Very Basic turnout building.

[Dad-1]

I'm daring to tread in here and start a thread after reading through several posts of highly technical construction

processes. I was looking for some very basic knowledge to help me make the occasional turnout without Templot,

or any other IT type of support. Certainly not EM, or P4, or even '00'FS, just bog standard '00' that may work acceptably.

 

I suppose I should answer the "Why" question, because most of what anyone wants can be obtained from the Peco

range and that would save a lot of effort. Then I've read many times how easy it is to make points and they work out

quite inexpensive and you can make components to fit a track plan that can't be achieved from standard geometry.

To help me on my way I inherited a load of Scaleway copper-clad sleepering, VERY old as the address was Cleethorpes.

There is also some C&L plastic components, but I'm not experimenting with that yet.

 

My first little play was to make a copy of a short Peco streamline point, but in EM. My EM shunting layout was a non-starter

when I found it was too difficult to convert the locomotive I intended using to EM standards. Following that decision I re-gauged

the point back to '00' and although I don't have a use for it it's been tested using a frog juicer with my little Ruston DS48.

So what next - all this stuff and no objective ?

 

In the 'stuff' there was a Scaleway scissors crossing plan. MMmm Perhaps the best way to learn more is to jump in and make

one.

 

 

With a couple of code 75 rollers, some side cutter pliers and an assortment of mongrel files I decided to plunge in !! That's been me all my life !!

 

A couple of sheets of very thin acetate were pinned over the plan so as not to destroy it. Copper-clad sleeper lengths were cut and with a dab of cyno glue

each end were stuck into position.

 

 

In that picture you also  see the EM test point and a very early play making a curved copy of a code 100 point using some spare (scrap) code 100 track.

 

Making up of common crossings was the previous bugbear, so this time a measured up and carefully made jig for the two standards of common crossing

required was knocked up using matchsticks glued to a solid piece of ply (layout leveller packing). I don't know if this is common practice or not, but I lightly

tinned the filed edges before wedging into the 'V', adding a little more liquid flux with a small amount of extra solder on the tip. It's worked surprisingly

well.

 

 

More to follow, this is enough for one sitting. Just to add that it does work

 

Geoff T.

 

[Ian Smeeton]

Well done for starting out in point building.

 

@hayfield's thread is well worth wading through with lots of good tips.

 

It looks from the photos that you have only filed one side of the crossing rails at the 'nose'

 

You may find that this is a problem (you may not!)

 

Although working in 2 mm scale, I was taught that both sides of the rail should be filed so that the strength is kept, and a 'sharper' nose can be produced.

 

After filing one side of the rail, 'tweak' it with pliers so that the filed side is now parallel with the rail edge, then file the second side to get the 'point'

 

I may be trying to teach you to suck eggs, but best of luck with the project.

 

REgards

 

Ian

 

 

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Ian Smeeton said:

Well done for starting out in point building.

 

@hayfield's thread is well worth wading through with lots of good tips.

 

It looks from the photos that you have only filed one side of the crossing rails at the 'nose'

 

You may find that this is a problem (you may not!)

 

Although working in 2 mm scale, I was taught that both sides of the rail should be filed so that the strength is kept, and a 'sharper' nose can be produced.

 

After filing one side of the rail, 'tweak' it with pliers so that the filed side is now parallel with the rail edge, then file the second side to get the 'point'

 

I may be trying to teach you to suck eggs, but best of luck with the project.

 

REgards

 

Ian

 

 

 

Ian

 

You are quite right, even the best modellers do make a few compromises, this is one I make as I rather concentrate on what I can see 

 

Firstly the nose should be blunt, not pointed, secondly in model terms there is not the weight mass to damage the rail, thirdly its not visible at normal viewing distances. If you wish to replicate it that's fine, but a sharper point on the vee is also non prototypical, 

 

I do know modellers who add parts that cannot be seen, and that's their choice. Many modellers claim track building is too difficult. Let's face it the most popular scale is not prototypical in gauge, but its accepted!!

[Ian Smeeton]

Thanks for pointing out my errors, @hayfield

 

In my defence, I should have said 'sharper'.

 

As you say, the nose will still be 'blunt'

 

I hope that pointing the OP in the direction of your topic will be helpful, though.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[hayfield]

Ian

 

No problems, I don't mind anyone contributing to the thread and ask questions why I do certain things, many others may have the same thoughts and fail to ask why

 

On the other hand I feel its important to dispel the myths that track building is very hard, simply its not

 

I accept my basic version of a Vee is not quite right, on the other hand I feel its far more important to start using the correct chairs where they are available, far too many still use standard chairs in positions where they should not be and where there is an alternative

 

There is a whole range of special chairs available from Exactoscale, C&L are also making a start on special chairs, L1 (bridge & J (joint) chairs are now available in 2 & 3 bolt versions, Phil is looking at a basic/simplified sprue(s) of basic special chairs for a turnout. The stumbling bloc is the cost of tools and demand. In my opinion too little encouragement is being made to educate modellers

 

All publicity is good thank you for taking the time to bring up this topic

[Dad-1]

First thank you Guys for adding useful information without getting too technical.

 

I will also apologise for the funny spacing, obviously I mustn't take a line too far

or the 'system' splits my text in inconvenient places.

 

This is Basic with a capital B, my tools are minimal and I've been doing too much by

eye rather than carefully taken measurements. In addition we're looking at tracks

soldered on to copper-clad sleepering, so no fancy chairs.

 

I've also decided that just a couple of track roller gauges is not really adequate and

experience has shown that a spare bogie is not really a good enough tool for the job.

 

 

I suppose the complexity of a scissors is not the best starting point, but at least you get

plenty of practice. I'm still just a little anxious as to the best soldering practice. I've been

using Carr's red flux and a small amount of solder on the Iron, which in theory should be

drawn well under the rail for a secure fix. It's not been 100% successful, but no dry joint

has caused problems electrically and with so many stitches along the sleepers seems

solid enough

 

 

Proof that it functions, here seen on a live test to confirm that 4 frog juicers will be

adequate to operate this with fully live DCC tracks.

 

 

For anyone who wants to try, go for it.

 

Now my friend who has a small layout in mind pointed out that it should be a slightly

curved scissors crossing !! MMmm Why Not ???

The worst thing that can happen to you is for it to fail. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Although not a Draughtsman, never an engineer, I've drawn out what I think may be an

acceptable plan.

 

 

Life should always be an adventure, so say's this old guy who's 80 next month !!

 

 

More to follow from me on the curved version - fingers crossed

 

Geoff T.

 

 

[hayfield]

Geoff

 

What a great attempt, and its a bit of jumping in at the deep end, as well as the common crossings you have also built 2 obtuse crossings!!

 

One never has enough track gauges. As well as roller gauges, in 00 gauge wing rail gauges are very useful, they are a flat bar usually 2" long by 1/2" but 1.25mm thick (the older SMP kits came with flat ali bars, 16.5mm wide but the magic 1.25mm wide, rubbish track gauges but great wing rail gauges) these can be put against the Vee and the wing rail can be soldered in place. Whilst technically wrong, they can also be used to fit  the check rails

 

The only tip I can give you about a curved scissors is to start in the middle and work outwards, but curved obtuse crossings are notoriously difficult to build in 00 gauge owing to inertia wanting to make the wheels go through the gap rather than follow the curve. Don't ask how I found out !!

[Dad-1]

Hi Hayfield,

 

I've always plunged in, sometimes the most memorable lessons are those learnt the

hard way, hence me smiling at you comment " Don't ask how I found out !! "

 

I've made a couple of spacing gauges out of 1 mm plastic card 16.5 wide and about

35 mm long. The other useful tip I've already picked up from having started this thread

is the 20 pence piece spacer !!

 

The obtuse crossings are err, interesting, and I've just tacked one in, curved one side

almost straight on the other. I am finding it rather a strain on my eyes, damn age I suppose.

I swear the Peco 13 ton hopper wagon kits got harder as progressed through the 10 that I

was making. I always thought they should get easier !!

 

Thanks for the tips, nothing extra to show from today and I'm out this weekend.

 

Geoff T.

[ikcdab]

i very much support the "plunge in" and have a go school of thought. My very first handbuilt turnout was a 3-way tandem in P4....the rest of the layout never appeared but i still have the turnout in my drawer 30-odd years later.

FGor making crossing vees, i follow the Brian Harrap method of folding a length of rail in half.  if you search on here you will find it. Works perfectly every time and no need for jigs....and you can have any angle you want.

Also please please use templot for your templates. They are highly accurate and will make the job so much easier.

Ian

[Dad-1]

Back after a short break. First exhibiting aircraft models at the Yeovil show on 10th April.

Then my middle son and his wife spent the last week down with us in Dorset.

 

Right to ikcdab, or Ian, that's shorter !!

I'm really NOT into computers and have no interest in getting and trying to learn tomplot. I will

prefer to the best on my abilities to draw out what I want. Perhaps these will be non-standard

sharper 'yard' turnouts made to fit the space available. I'm quite enjoying the idea of very little

support, just my ingenuity, or perhaps lack of same !!

 

The curved scissors has come on a bit today :-

 

 

 

You end up with some slightly funny angles, but so far it's looking better than the straight crossing.

I still have several check rails to add and many of the sleepers are not yet fully soldered in, just tacked

every so often. Being on a curve and made to pretty much the length of a straight scissors a couple

of curves are sharper than perfection, however this should be fine for 0-6-0's

 

I have one or two minor adjustments to make, but considering this is on a curve it's looking quite

good. With the curve I need to be very careful as to where my link wires go, but at least I know that

4 frog Juicers will work for a fully live DCC track.

 

Geoff T.

[hayfield]

Geoff

 

More importantly, how well is the crossing working ?

[Happy Hippo]

A nice scissors coming along there.  I'll admit to not wanting to make one myself!

 

However, I think it might have made your life a bit easier if you had cut most, if not all,  the very necessary insulation gaps in the copper paxolin sleepers prior to soldering it all together.

[Dad-1]

Hi Hayfield,

 

At least I can slide a 42XX (2-8-0) through all the possible routes without snagging, or even

noticeable resistance at any specific place.

 

Ahh Happy Hippo, I'd not even thought about doing that. So for yourself and Hayfield it will

be a while before I can make live run to truly test running qualities. Insulating before making ???

For the possible layout I need a double point for the other end of a loop, must try that idea !!!

 

The one advantage of trackwork like this is that it's equal to making 4 points and a diamond,

giving lots of practice.

 

Today I hope to get the last check rails in and solder all the non secured sleeper locations. Then

working out all the wiring needed for the fixed DCC live tracks, plus the 4 frog juicers. Only

then will I be able to give Hayfield the truth as to how it works !!

 

Geoff T.

[hayfield]

5 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

A nice scissors coming along there.  I'll admit to not wanting to make one myself!

 

However, I think it might have made your life a bit easier if you had cut most, if not all,  the very necessary insulation gaps in the copper paxolin sleepers prior to soldering it all together.

 

 

Richard

 

That is one thing I always do and for several reasons.

 

Firstly it looks a lot neater, if its on the layout rather than in a fiddle yard I fill the gaps then sand the gaps flat

More importantly I can check for short circuits which can save a lot of time, but also it allows testing as you go under power

 

With a complex like this it may seem a bit of a fag doing this, but fault finding once the rails are in place can be very frustrating.

 

But there is nothing wrong in what Geoff is doing and I guess nearly all make the electrical gaps after the rails are soldered in place

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, Dad-1 said:

Hi Hayfield,

 

At least I can slide a 42XX (2-8-0) through all the possible routes without snagging, or even

noticeable resistance at any specific place.

 

Ahh Happy Hippo, I'd not even thought about doing that. So for yourself and Hayfield it will

be a while before I can make live run to truly test running qualities. Insulating before making ???

For the possible layout I need a double point for the other end of a loop, must try that idea !!!

 

The one advantage of trackwork like this is that it's equal to making 4 points and a diamond,

giving lots of practice.

 

Today I hope to get the last check rails in and solder all the non secured sleeper locations. Then

working out all the wiring needed for the fixed DCC live tracks, plus the 4 frog juicers. Only

then will I be able to give Hayfield the truth as to how it works !!

 

Geoff T.

 

Geoff,

 

If you have a Dremel you can gently grind the copper off the timbers with a cut-off wheel to create the isolation gaps. If you only remove the copper and make the gaps quite wide they will be barely visible under a coat of paint.

 

It looks like you also need to cut some rails to isolate the frogs. Are you familiar with where the cuts have to be made?

 

Andy

[Dad-1]

Been rather occupied with other things recently.

All the rail cuts have now been done, using the dreaded Dremel, it's only 22 of them.

However I'm still doing the sleeper cuts and double checking they will be correct for fully

live DCC trackwork with frog juicer frog polarity switching. Well over 120 of them tp do !!

 

As the straight scissors worked O.K I'm not really expecting trouble, but will test sections

before it's fully powered up.

 

My one problem, that I will admit I've not searched around for answers yet, is switch rail to

stock rail fit. I have a small gap that I don't want. I can't be certain if it's solder that's crept

under the switch rail. I'm wondering if I should have filed at an angle under the stock rail for

such an eventuality ?

I have hand run stock and it doesn't catch, but reversing a train usually brings flanges tight

against rails and the natural movement pushing a load is for wagons to try and jack-knife.

The switch blade ends are filed very thin, perhaps I should have taken my cut-outs deeper

into the stock rail ??

I also have to make and fit my over-centre springs, not 100% necessary if this is used with

wire-in-tube, but I think I need to do for testing purposes.

 

Geoff T.

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, Dad-1 said:

 

 

My one problem, that I will admit I've not searched around for answers yet, is switch rail to

stock rail fit. I have a small gap that I don't want. I can't be certain if it's solder that's crept

under the switch rail. I'm wondering if I should have filed at an angle under the stock rail for

such an eventuality ?

 

Geoff T.

 

 

Geoff

 

Just slightly round the top of the tip of the switch rail very slightly, the cone shape of the wheels will do the rest

[Dad-1]

Wow it's been a long time since I visited.

Thanks to hayfield & others I'm no longer concerned about making turnouts, even

with almost no special tools.

A controversial element now - Most people who make track do so for technical and

scenis to thec reasons and they tend to look at BR standard turnouts where space becomes 

a problem. At my age I no longer want to make a large layout, been there with commercial

track and I no longer have the energy to even exhibit a big layout. What I want is 'compact'

with a capital 'C' shunting layout.

Well I made one using inherited Peco Set-track points. The loop idea is fine and driving the

puzzles can be a brain tester with many track limits coming into play. However all the small

locomotives can't work reliably at slow speed over the points. In fact some don't like crossing

once let alone multiple times.

Answer - Make your own live frog turnouts in code 75, but use the set-track geometry. Easy

to ink a points rails, press onto paper to make a plan. This particular crossover is to be used

in a 48" long puzzle layout.

 

 

The result is quite pleasing :-

 

 

 

My thanks to all on here who give help and advice to help at so many levels.

 

Geoff T.

[brossard]

Nice to see Geoff.  I've been making turnouts for quite a while, starting with copper clad for the club layout.  I rebuilt a number of old Peco turnouts by replacing the timbers with CC strip and reused the rail.  Crossings and blades had to be made from scratch though, but it was a gateway.

 

Great to see someone venturing into this field.

 

John

[Captain_Mumbles]

Lovely