Southernmost terminal point for Regional Railways trains

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me what were the southernmost terminal points for Regional Railways trains c1992?

 

I am interested in the answers for both Loco hauled and DMU trains.

 

Many thanks

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

Probably Penzance.

[Tallpaul69]

Thanks Mike,

I wasn't remembering that Regional went into the southwest!

So trying to be more specific:-

Were Regional trains in summer timetable, c1990-92 but not excursions, seen around Banbury or Oxford or anywhere further south (but east of Bristol) on the ex GWR or GW&GC lines?

 

Cheers

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks Mike,

I wasn't remembering that Regional went into the southwest!

So trying to be more specific:-

Were Regional trains in summer timetable, c1990-92 but not excursions, seen around Banbury or Oxford or anywhere further south (but east of Bristol) on the ex GWR or GW&GC lines?

 

Cheers

Paul

As far as I can remember the answer to that is 'no' - definitely the case for Oxford (purely NSE and IC) and more than likely the case for Banbury.  

 

However if you are looking for a nice modelling excuse that was exactly in that time frame the dates coincide with the period when RR at Swindon were proposing their Swindon - Peterborough hourly interval service.  It would have passed through Oxford on its way to Bletchley then Milton Keynes (reverse) before returning southwards to gain the Bletchley - Bedford line.   As the proposal coincided with the work I was doing on the Avonmouth - Didcot Power Station coal flow I needed to include it on my graph for my proposal to re-quadruple the line between Wantage Road and Challow including the proposed new station at Wantage Road (at that time its most likely name seemed to be Grove rather than Wantage Parkway as Inter-City weren't very keen on the idea of an additional station there).  So I graphed an hourly path in each direction which had to run on the new Relief Lines between Challow and Wantage Road as the station platforms would be on the site of the old ones.  I think my graph, apart from putative times at Swindon, was the only detail timing work ever done for these trains and the 1992 re-organisation completely killed the proposal.

[Mike_Walker]

I thought RR operated some services over the North Cotswold line to Oxford circa 1990 and wasn't the final Turbo, 166221, sponsored by RR although part of the NSE fleet?

[Tallpaul69]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

As far as I can remember the answer to that is 'no' - definitely the case for Oxford (purely NSE and IC) and more than likely the case for Banbury.  

 

However if you are looking for a nice modelling excuse that was exactly in that time frame the dates coincide with the period when RR at Swindon were proposing their Swindon - Peterborough hourly interval service.  It would have passed through Oxford on its way to Bletchley then Milton Keynes (reverse) before returning southwards to gain the Bletchley - Bedford line.   As the proposal coincided with the work I was doing on the Avonmouth - Didcot Power Station coal flow I needed to include it on my graph for my proposal to re-quadruple the line between Wantage Road and Challow including the proposed new station at Wantage Road (at that time its most likely name seemed to be Grove rather than Wantage Parkway as Inter-City weren't very keen on the idea of an additional station there).  So I graphed an hourly path in each direction which had to run on the new Relief Lines between Challow and Wantage Road as the station platforms would be on the site of the old ones.  I think my graph, apart from putative times at Swindon, was the only detail timing work ever done for these trains and the 1992 re-organisation completely killed the proposal.

Thanks Mike,

That's interesting!

Did RR ever get as far as proposing power/stock or DMUs?

Cheers

Paul

[Mike_Walker]

Right, I've consulted with an expert (and very senior person in the industry) and he confirms my above post.  It seems that Regional Railways did indeed operate into Oxford up until 1991 using Class 155s.  There were then a number of "swaps" between sectors which evened up resources between RR and NSE which included the latter assuming complete responsibility for the North Cotswold Line along with taking over the Leamington Spa - Birmingham Snow Hill locals from RR.  Units 166220/221 were added to the original order to provide additional resources for NSE to cover the additional NCL workings.  There were other changes which allowed RR to release 21 three-car 158s off the production line for transfer to NSE suitably modified to become Class 159.

 

155331 at Hereford ready to work to Oxford on 30 June 1990.

 

Returning to the original posting,  RR also operated the Bristol to Brighton service again with Class 155s or 156s.  These eventually passed to GWR and continued to operate until last Friday when the Portsmouth - Brighton section was withdrawn.  RR also operated to Weymouth as GWR still do.

 

PS  I should add that my "source" was, at the time, just starting his career with NSE at Reading but took a very close interest in such goings on and continues to do so today!

Edited May 15, 2022 by Mike_Walker
PS added

[andy stroud]

Oxford to Hereford train at Honeybourne. 27 April 1991

 

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

3 minutes ago, andy stroud said:

Oxford to Hereford train at Honeybourne. 27 April 1991

 

 

 

Or as it says on the blind: "Here ord".   Honeybourne looks better these days...

[john new]

21 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me what were the southernmost terminal points for Regional Railways trains c1992?

 

I am interested in the answers for both Loco hauled and DMU trains.

 

Many thanks

Paul.

Definitely to Weymouth at one time, can't remember the dates though. 

[The Pilotman]

22 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me what were the southernmost terminal points for Regional Railways trains c1992?

 

I am interested in the answers for both Loco hauled and DMU trains.

 

Many thanks

Paul.

Loco hauled: Weymouth

DMU: Penzance

[Mike_Walker]

22 minutes ago, The Pilotman said:

Loco hauled: Weymouth

DMU: Penzance

CF based 155s also worked to Weymouth around 1990.

[phil-b259]

17 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

I thought RR operated some services over the North Cotswold line to Oxford circa 1990 and wasn't the final Turbo, 166221, sponsored by RR although part of the NSE fleet?

 

Yes they did

 

Its all part of the complicated 159 story.

 

In a nutshell when Network SouthEast (NSE) were looking for options to get rid of the very unreliable loco hauled operation on the Waterloo - Exeter line it happened to coincide with the country entering a deep recession.

 

At the same time the Regional Railways (RR) business sector were taking delivery of their new 158 DMUs but they realised that with the recession dampening ridership and the demands of the government to cut costs they would be left with a surplus of 158 units.

 

These two problems did not go unnoticed at the higher levels of British Rail and so NSE started discussions to take on the unwanted 158 fleet from RR and deploy them on the Waterloo - Exeter route. However there was a problem in that the number of spare 158 units was not quite enough for NSEs needs  - particularly as NSE had long term ambitions to increase the service to hourly and needed to cope with significant peak time flows from Salisbury to London.

 

So what NSE did is offer to increase the number of Turbo units it had on order and transfer a small number to RR on paper to compensate. Those extra turbos would allow NSE to operate the Oxford - Worcester - Hereford runs on behalf of RR.

 

Note that contrary to what many may think, at no time during its existence did NSE officially operate west of Oxford! Just because the trains happened to be in NSE livery made no difference to who got the revenue (split between RR and IC) or to the fact that  NSE specific products like its Gold card were unable to be used on the service.

 

This setup remained the same until the run up to privatisation when such oddities were done away with and RR formerly handed over responsibility of the service to the newly created Thames Trains shadow franchise

 

Just to complete the story, the NSE 158 allocated units were delivered already in NSE livery but there were some further modifications NSE wanted done so the units were sent up to Rosyth and came back as 159s based at Salisbury.

Edited May 16, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

 

....along with taking over the Leamington Spa - Birmingham Snow Hill locals from RR.  

 

 

NSE involvement came about from through trains from London / Oxford - It never operated between Leamington and Birmingham in isolation*. As with the Oxford - Worcester - Hereford service, the use of Turbos north of Banbury was I believe to allow the release of the additional 158 units NSE wanted for their west of England route.

 

*It was similar to what happened on the WCML where some NSE London - Northampton services were extended to / from Birmingham after delivery of the 321 units (one or two of which may have been bought with case from WMPTE to facilitate it). These 'extensions' were operated 'on behalf' of RR and as such fare revenue went to RR plus NSE products were not valid either. 

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

Thanks for everyone's responses to my question.

Picking up on a number of comments about early 90s RR services being run with NSE labelled stock, I wonder if there were any instances of NSE services in the Banbury/Didcot/Paddington triangle being operated (e.g. as a loan due to low service availability!) by Regional Railways stock?  (or any other non NSE stock for that matter?)

Any thoughts, or even better pics, appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

[D6775]

Although it never made it as a regular service (I believe it was talked about on numerous occasions) but Regional Railways Loco hauled services did reach Paignton on a rare occasion before privatisation.

 

37407 on one such occasion, not the best picture I am affraid:

 

[phil-b259]

23 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

Thanks for everyone's responses to my question.

Picking up on a number of comments about early 90s RR services being run with NSE labelled stock, I wonder if there were any instances of NSE services in the Banbury/Didcot/Paddington triangle being operated (e.g. as a loan due to low service availability!) by Regional Railways stock?  (or any other non NSE stock for that matter?)

Any thoughts, or even better pics, appreciated.

Cheers

Paul

 

No

 

As NSE was mainly a London commuter operation it had larger rolling stock fleets than RR to operate longer trains at peak times. Stock shortages could therefore usually be covered by shortening formations to release units, which although undesirable, prevented services being cancelled.

 

If you really want to mix RR and NSE stock in the Banbury/Didcot/Paddington triangle then you need to invent an alternate reality where NSE didn't operate services on behalf of RR and / or imagine a new RR service was created which passed through the area - as the Stationmaster has mentioned up thread there is one proposal for such a service which never in the end happened.

 

On the other hand if you transfer you attention to the Salisbury area where NSE (Waterloo - Exeter,) and RR (Portsmouth - Bristol) stock mixed quite a bit in real life then it would fit the bill.

Edited May 17, 2022 by phil-b259

[Bittern]

On 15/05/2022 at 22:53, Mike_Walker said:

Returning to the original posting,  RR also operated the Bristol to Brighton service again with Class 155s or 156s. 

I may have misremembered (I was pretty young then) but I'm fairly sure I travelled on a RR 158 between Havant and Bath in 1995 or 1996. The bits I'm sure of was that it was the direct RR train to Bath, and a 158 on the way back, but there was disruption at Bristol that day  so we might have ended up catching a Southampton train and changing at Fareham.

 

EDIT: now that I think about it, it was probably 1996 (but definitely before July) - the disruption was a HST that had failed after leaving Bristol and the announcer at Bath said a Great Western shunter had been sent to rescue it. The 158 was definitely in RR Express Sprinter livery and the train to Bath had RR reservation labels (i've still got one I collected, though it wasn't for my seat), but I can't remember anything to be certain it wasn't operated by SWT.

Edited January 27 by Bittern
Added extra details