Trends in Pre-Grouping Coach Livery

[Michael Hodgson]

On 19/05/2022 at 13:03, Compound2632 said:

Railways Archive has a pdf of the Requirements etc. Board of Trade in regard to the Opening of Railways, the 1885 version (1892 imprint) marked up with changes for the 1902 version - looking very like Word's "track changes" but all done in type! The phase "to be" is used where now one would write "must be" to indicate a legal requirement, though there are some instances of "must". There is also much use of "should be" to indicate a legal requirement, though many of these have been crossed out in favour of "to be". 

 

Section D, Recommendations as to the Working of Railways, is relevant to the present discussion. One notes the use of the word "recommendations" rather than "requirements", i.e. the items in this section are not legally enforceable but the Board of Trade's view of best practice. (Though this section includes communication, which as seen could be enforced by the Board of Trade under the 1868 Act; the words "as required by the Legislature" have been struck out - did the 1889 Act modify this? The paragraph on continuous brakes has been struck out in its entirety, as being superseded by the 1889 Act.)

The BoT were essentially engineers and civil servants rather than lawyers, so they probably weren't quite as picky about wording as is the case today.  I suspect the contemporary interpretation of "should be" in such documents would be tantamount to a requirement, and non-compliance would justify an inspecting officer refusal of permission to open a new line or at least only to grant permission subject to it being put right.

 

Having said that, I have always understood the BoT's "Requirements and Recommendations" to be drawing a deliberate distinction between mandatory and non-mandatory good practice.  The recommendations for freight working were clearly not legally enforced, as goods only lines lacked such things as Absolute Block, FPLs etc.  However in a civil case, I would imagine a good lawyer could argue their absence as evidence in support an of allegation of negligence in a case where it was directly relevant to damage caused whilst the company would have to rely on the small print in their Terms of Carriage.

[Caley Jim]

21 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Caledonian Railway, c.1890-1922, purple lake & white

One of those companies that in the early years had different colours for different classes.  This included possibly white upper panels to Second Class and this may have become common practice before ceasing in 1869 in favour of all-over lake. The re-introduction of white upper panels in the ‘modern’ CR livery dates from c.1890. 

The majority of 'older' (specifically 4-wheeled) CR coaches retained an all over lined purple brown livery throughout their lives, especially those used on the Cathcart Circle and Balerno Branch services.

 

Jim

[Regularity]

On 20/05/2022 at 17:41, Michael Hodgson said:

Having said that, I have always understood the BoT's "Requirements and Recommendations" to be drawing a deliberate distinction between mandatory and non-mandatory good practice.

Still around today, but more likely to be seen as “Rules” and “Guidance”. The former is mandatory, the latter isn’t.

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Still around today, but more likely to be seen as “Rules” and “Guidance”. The former is mandatory, the latter isn’t.

 

But if you don't follow the Guidance and something goes wrong, you're on a sticky wicket when it comes to court.

[Edwardian]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But if you don't follow the Guidance and something goes wrong, you're on a sticky wicket when it comes to court.

 

Yes, potential civil liability and reputational damage resulting from not following a safe practice recommended by the BoT as identified by a BoT inspector in an accident report is not what the Directors want to contemplate over breakfast eggs and toast. 

[Compound2632]

43 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Yes, potential civil liability and reputational damage resulting from not following a safe practice recommended by the BoT as identified by a BoT inspector in an accident report is not what the Directors want to contemplate over breakfast eggs and toast. 

 

Ha! We all know that many a railway company director ate a hearty breakfast, the only ill effect being indigestion brought on by another circular from the Board of Trade recommending expenditure on lock, block, and brake!

Edited May 22, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[corneliuslundie]

Certainly for the companies which used mahogany or teak, panelling, painting was not an easy option.

The Brighton incidentally at one stage had a different s,ingle colour (green if I remember) for some of its third class "suburban" carriages though I am not sure how long that lasted without referring to the relevant Southern Style volume (which I should know by heart as I produced it for the HMRS).

The Cambrian started out with a single all-over colour, probably brown, apparently had a period of brown and "cream", then went to the green and  "cream" and then to all-over green. The latter was certainly to save money and happened when the GWR went to a single colour for the same reason even though at the time the Cambrian was trying hard to attract holiday business. In the green and cream period ends were vermilion (GWW). GWW does not mention the colour of ends for the all-green period.

Of course, once carriages started to have corridor connections on the ends, painting them red would not have been very effective anyway. 

Jonathan

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Certainly for the companies which used mahogany or teak, panelling, painting was not an easy option.

 

Coaches built of mahogany were almost always painted, at least after c1889, teak built coaches were varnished. 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Coaches built of mahogany were almost always painted, at least after c1889, teak built coaches were varnished. 

 

In the 1870s, mahogany was the material used for panelling of Midland carriages; I've not seen anything to suggest that changed, at least up to the Great War.

[Andy Hayter]

I think the point Bill is making is that mahogany can take paint and is protected by it.  Teak, by virtue of the natural oils it contains, does not hold paint well.  Painting teak can actually shorten its life if delaminating paint holds water semi-permanently behind it.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Andy Hayter

[CKPR]

Re. going from a varnished to a two-tone livery, the M&CR did just this, which raises the issue about painting over teak - perhaps the M&CR's 4w and 6w  coaches were made of mahogany, rather than teak? 

[Edwardian]

59 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Re. going from a varnished to a two-tone livery, the M&CR did just this, which raises the issue about painting over teak - perhaps the M&CR's 4w and 6w  coaches were made of mahogany, rather than teak? 

-

GER was teak. When due to age a satisfactory varnished finish could no longer be obtained, the coaches were painted brown. The LNER continued the practice.

[billbedford]

21 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

-

GER was teak. When due to age a satisfactory varnished finish could no longer be obtained, the coaches were painted brown. The LNER continued the practice.

Not quite

GER was teak until c1920, then Lake, then after the grouping teak. Plain brown paint on old coaches was common on all railways with teak coaches 

[Edwardian]

7 hours ago, billbedford said:

Not quite

GER was teak until c1920, then Lake, then after the grouping teak. Plain brown paint on old coaches was common on all railways with teak coaches 

 

Well, not 'not quite' right, Bill, completely right! I was referring to the practice on the GER as regards its teak stock. The specific point under discussion was whether one could successfully over-paint teak. This in turn stemmed from an earlier comment that apparently LCDR teak was difficult to over-paint as it was quite oily.

 

The GER livery change in 1919 was an example of a livery change from a varnished wood to a painted livery, so worth mentioning, though it doesn't qualify or negate the point made.

 

Other companies may well have had a similar practice regarding worn varnished finishes as they would presumably have encountered the same issues as the GER. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2022 by Edwardian
drawing upon reserves of patience

[Edwardian]

I suspect in many cases two-tone carriage liveries were the front line in the perpetual battle between the grandiosity of locomotive and carriage superintendents and burgeoning publicity departments on the one hand and practicality and parsimony of Directors on the other.

 

Fortunately on the whole the forces are kept in balance until a Churchward or a Maunsell comes along to unleash a puritanical zealotry against extravagant liveries!    

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Edwardian said:

Fortunately on the whole the forces are kept in balance until a Churchward or a Maunsell comes along to unleash a puritanical zealotry against extravagant liveries!    

 

The impression I get is that Churchward simply wasn't interested in what colour the rolling stock under his superintendency was. As for Maunsell, he came from the Emerald Isle...

 

But this does beg the question of how much independence a Superintendent or CME had in the question of livery - such a public-facing aspect of design would surely need approval at Board level?

 

As an aside, when T.G. Clayton was appointed Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the Midland in 1873, he came from a similar position on the Great Western, yet one never hears of his successors. 

[Edwardian]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The impression I get is that Churchward simply wasn't interested in what colour the rolling stock under his superintendency was. As for Maunsell, he came from the Emerald Isle...

 

But this does beg the question of how much independence a Superintendent or CME had in the question of livery - such a public-facing aspect of design would surely need approval at Board level?

 

As an aside, when T.G. Clayton was appointed Carriage & Wagon Superintendent of the Midland in 1873, he came from a similar position on the Great Western, yet one never hears of his successors. 

 

Yes, but I think in many cases it was the superintendent pushing the bean counters on the Board to do something splendid. Wainwright got his way only to have to scale back under pressure from his Board after a decade or so of one of the most opulent loco liveries we've seen. 

 

Also, some superintendents were able to exert more forceful personalities than others. 

[corneliuslundie]

This sounds like a prequel to the complaints of the Southern Region about the cost of the BR two colour livery, which ended with the Southern Region using green. See "Southern Style After Nationalisation", HMRS, by John Harvey.

Jonathan

[webbcompound]

Re loco buffer beams the WM&CQR moved from vermillion to black towards the end of its independent existence, apparently as a measure of economy. Going back to the colour of carriages it is interesting to compare the US experience. At first carriages were multicoloured and downright gaudy (the Pennsylvania's decision to paint a train in red, white and green being an example), but under the influence of the Pullman company almost everyone moved to a version of dark pullman green (exceptions being the Alton, the Milwaukee and the Pennsylvania which all had variants on claret, and the multicoloured trains of the streamliner era which fall outside our pre-grouping timeslot). If the Pullman company had been more succesful in expanding in Britain we might well perhaps have seen more Umber and Cream here.

Edited May 28, 2022 by webbcompound

[Dana Ashdown]

On 28/05/2022 at 12:36, webbcompound said:

it is interesting to compare the US experience. At first carriages were multicoloured and downright gaudy

Some actually had scenes painted on the sides, but this seems to have ended by the 1860s.

[Caledonian]

Anent painting teak, it's worth noting British Railways' unhappy experience with painting Gresley stock in red and cream. Looked quite magnificent when first applied but soon turned very scabby

 

The all red [maroon] which followed seems to have lasted much better, which again seems consonant with earlier experience.

[corneliuslundie]

I was browsing through "Our Home Railways" the other day - published in 1910. In the chapter on the Midland Railway it describes how the carriages were then painted.

 

I hope that helps. Note the reference to gold-size. That seems to be the crucial bit.

Jonathan