Engineers train

[GONK43]

Evening all

 

Phew, hot one today. I love the sunshine.

Anway, can I request some help please. Have been poppin around google, but havin trouble finding info on BR Blue days, engineering train formations.

Have the Express Modeller Train Formation Handbook, which is a great bit of publication. Sadly, no info on engineering trains.

So, can anyone suggest some train formations, and which wagons to use. I am looking at accurascale 21T wagons as a basis for spoil etc.

Apologies if covered before.

Regards

 

[woodyfox]

There's a lot of different types of engineering trains. 

Spoil empties or loaded - spent ballast. 

Stone loaded or empty - new ballast. 

A crane/track relayer with a couple of wagons - with materials on for unloading or empty for collecting used stuff. 

Track panel train. 

LWR train. 

Weekend material trains, some with a mess and tool van. 

The list goes in and on. 

[MyRule1]

As I mentioned in Bargain Hunters

Key publishing are have a clearance of various Bookagzines

 

https://shop.keypublishing.com/collections/bookazines-clearance?utm_campaign=Aviation Bookazines sale&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=217311160&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_vOp31u3QF9saxGnSjkZuRfs73qxLoNmYkx779_m2HPHzjxJT27bLWD3n2AnMcnfl2Lrv-lxYcb7WiZFmdFLCXT_sd7u5roSc5z-jyIILPz373yzI&utm_content=217311160&utm_source=hs_email

 

One of which is about Engineers Trains, sorry the link did not cut and paste but you should be able to locate the page

[GONK43]

Thanks very much for replies.

Yep woodyfox, these are the formations I am on about, but looking for more detail on :

a.  the formation of wagons. i.e 4x21t open, 1x brake van for example

b. the type of wagon or van i.e haddock, turbot etc.

I am not rivet counting, but trying to represent something that would have been possible.

MyRule1. Looked at the list of books, but could not see one titled engineers trains.

Ta

 

 

[GONK43]

Actually, just come across David Larkin civil engineers wagons. Might be what I am looking for.

 

[woodyfox]

43 minutes ago, GONK43 said:

Thanks very much for replies.

Yep woodyfox, these are the formations I am on about, but looking for more detail on :

a.  the formation of wagons. i.e 4x21t open, 1x brake van for example

b. the type of wagon or van i.e haddock, turbot etc.

I am not rivet counting, but trying to represent something that would have been possible.

MyRule1. Looked at the list of books, but could not see one titled engineers trains.

Ta

 

 

I drove engineering trains in the 80s on the SWD of BR and there were no hard and fast rules. I do remember turbot spoil wagons tended to run in rakes of 20 to 25. 

There were a variety of wagons with differing brake systems and so marshalling was important (vac or air piped were common). Wagon sequences were also carefully planned so that lowmacs with plant was in the right place on a site etc... 

 

Also remember, BR ran a network of timetabled trains m-f dedicated to CMEE trains between yards so that trains could be made up for weekend engineering jobs. 

These could have lots of variety of vehicles... 

[hmrspaul]

What do you mean by BR blue period? That goes from steam days for, what 25  years. The entire freight/engineers rolling stock changed in that period. Most would have been unfitted at the beginning except some of the specialised wagons, more vacuum brake came along in the 1970s, although some had the VB out of use. Some specialist rakes of bogie hoppers were air braked in the 1980s but there were few AB wagons used by the engineers - the enormous replacement by Turbot were all VB. As a generality AB for engineers is later than your period.

The one wagon that was rarely used by engineers is an HTO and even less an HTV. After the end of the blue period they did use ex HTVs, but cut them down.  In the 1970s - which to me is the Blue period - the engineers got hold of thousands of redundant revenue open wagons - they already had the 3 plank Med(Fits) but were joined by 5/6 plank steel and wooden opens. The shock opens were very common at Hitchin but whether that was true elsewhere I am less certain. And of course the earlier standard steel minerals - only at the end of your period did they get VB ones and cut holes in the side in attempt to prevent overloading. 

 

Thousands of engineers wagons in the blue period in https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com  Every photo dated.

 

Paul

Edited June 23, 2022 by hmrspaul

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, GONK43 said:

So, can anyone suggest some train formations, and which wagons to use. I am looking at accurascale 21T wagons as a basis for spoil etc.

 

Waste ballast etc tended to be moved in low sided wagons, typically redundant revenue earning wagons, because that's easier to load at the line side - especially in the days when most of the work was done by hand with shovels.

 

New ballast was often carried in wagons specially built for the purpose, eg Dogfish, because they were designed to discharge to the places you wanted it.

 

You would often need an old carriage to transport the gang to the work site.  Not all engineering trains were PWay oriented.  Other engineering functions, notably S&T would need to bring materials (new signals, pre-cast concrete troughing etc) onto site, and would sometimes use cranes to plant them (though that work could be done by hand using a few ropes).  A wagon might ne needed to carry a compressor or concrete mixer to site.  Electrification of a line required special trains to dig holes for the masts, to erect them, to fit the wiring.

[MyRule1]

15 hours ago, GONK43 said:

Thanks very much for replies.

Yep woodyfox, these are the formations I am on about, but looking for more detail on :

a.  the formation of wagons. i.e 4x21t open, 1x brake van for example

b. the type of wagon or van i.e haddock, turbot etc.

I am not rivet counting, but trying to represent something that would have been possible.

MyRule1. Looked at the list of books, but could not see one titled engineers trains.

Ta

 

 

The Engineers book is here

 

https://shop.keypublishing.com/collections/bookazines-clearance/products/modelling-british-railways-engineers-wagons-2

[Steven B]

Flickr's date filter function on their search can be very useful. Setting it from1/1/1970 to 1/1/1980 gives plenty of results:

 

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=engineers train&min_taken_date=-3600&max_taken_date=315619199

 

Steven B

[woodyfox]

13 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

What do you mean by BR blue period? That goes from steam days for, what 25  years. The entire freight/engineers rolling stock changed in that period. Most would have been unfitted at the beginning except some of the specialised wagons, more vacuum brake came along in the 1970s, although some had the VB out of use. Some specialist rakes of bogie hoppers were air braked in the 1980s but there were few AB wagons used by the engineers - the enormous replacement by Turbot were all VB. As a generality AB for engineers is later than your period.

The one wagon that was rarely used by engineers is an HTO and even less an HTV. After the end of the blue period they did use ex HTVs, but cut them down.  In the 1970s - which to me is the Blue period - the engineers got hold of thousands of redundant revenue open wagons - they already had the 3 plank Med(Fits) but were joined by 5/6 plank steel and wooden opens. The shock opens were very common at Hitchin but whether that was true elsewhere I am less certain. And of course the earlier standard steel minerals - only at the end of your period did they get VB ones and cut holes in the side in attempt to prevent overloading. 

 

Thousands of engineers wagons in the blue period in https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com  Every photo dated.

 

Paul

On the South Western of the Southern we ran fresh ballast in vac mixed rakes of crab and dace steel bodied wagons - usually 30 to 40 a rake. Also sealions, seacows and (a bit earlier) whale hoppers. These usually were in a rake of 10 to 15. We also had some old WR based MDV types for grit and spoil with holes cut in the sides to prevent overfilling. 

[Rivercider]

Engineering trains is a huge subject, and it has already been mentioned that

the wagon types in use changed significantly during the blue era.

 

In the late 1960s and early 1970s there would have still been a lot of unfitted wagons in the civil engineers fleet,

particularly opens for carrying spoil and bogie rail carriers, though I think all ballast hoppers would have been vacuum braked by then (the sealions were dual braked). By the early 1980s the engineers fleet was supplemented by a variety of rebuilds of former  vacuum braked revenue earning wagons, (eg turbots, tope, and clam), also large numbers of former iron ore tipplers (TOPS code MSV became ZKVs). Some of the 16t mineral wagons (TOPS code MCV or MXV) also went into engineers use (as TOPS code ZHV) but were next to useless as they were easily overloaded, so had holes cut in the side to prevent this, the bodies were easily damaged by mechanical grabs, so they did not last very long.

The BR network progressively became a fully fitted railway with the Southern Region first to eliminate unfitted wagons with a brake van at the rear in the mid 1970s. By the late 1980s trains were either formed of vacuum braked stock, or air braked stock (with the odd piped only vehicle marshalled in the middle).

There were also regional variations of the civil engineers wagon fleets. On the WR both ballast and spoil trains tended to be formed of a single type of wagon, whereas I think some other areas operated far more mixed train formations. 

If you are meaning the Accurascale 21t mineral wagons (type MDV or MDO) then they were not used for either ballast or spoil on the WR, and not common in engineers use elsewhere.  

 

cheers

[GONK43]

Excellent replies. This is good detail. Can see there are alot of options, and has been said, there were no hard fast rules. Did BR run flat wagons with a slew excavator onboard at any time?

hmrspaul: Br Blue, mid to late 70`s, TOPS.

myrule1: Righto thanks for that.

[Fat Controller]

In early 1980, I worked at a place overlooking Alsager tip, near Crewe, which dealt with several trains of spoil each day. Virtually none of the wagons was purpose-built. There were former Shock opens, Medfits (both steel and 3-plank) and Highfits (either 5-plank or steel types) . All had been fitted, but the vac-pipes were usually absent.

In contrast, on passing the WR tips at Patchway and Maesglas, I noticed the trains were normally composed of purpose-built, steel-bodied, opens; these were a mixture of GWR and BR builds. 

Both angledozers and tracked 360-degree excavators were transported to site, normally on Flatrol/Loriot . These could be unloaded over the side of the wagon. Drott 'dozers and Hymac diggers were the most common types on the WR; the Hymacs were manufactured in the Cardiff area .

[Rivercider]

For mid-late 1970s in the Bristol area the ballast trains would normally be formed of either dogfish (ZFV) or sealions (YGH) very rarely mixed together, sometimes a train of mermaids (ZJV and ZJO with a brake van). The spoil trains would normally be grampus, perhaps five or 10 fitted (ZBV) behind the loco for brake force and 15-20 unfitted (ZBO) with a brake van. On my travels elsewhere around BR I was surprised to see so many former traffic wagons in use for spoil trains as mentioned by Brian. Sometimes the smaller engineering jobs down in the West Country might use a spoil train of mixed types, but they were usually older purpose built engineers wagons types like starfish, tunny and ling.

The book 'BR Departmental Rolling Stock' by David Larkin shows many of the types in use,

 

 

 

 

 

A good selection of wagons including former revenue earning types seen here on the LMR at Banbury behind 25110, 28/3/80.

 

cheers

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, woodyfox said:

On the South Western of the Southern we ran fresh ballast in vac mixed rakes of crab and dace steel bodied wagons - usually 30 to 40 a rake. Also sealions, seacows and (a bit earlier) whale hoppers. These usually were in a rake of 10 to 15. We also had some old WR based MDV types for grit and spoil with holes cut in the sides to prevent overfilling. 

Another reason why a generalised question is so difficult to answer adequately. The Southern Railway (and LSWR) recognised VB was very useful for the long distance trains from Meldon quarry so had both bogie ballast hoppers, and some dropside opens and associated ballast brake vans, with VB, donkeys years before other railways. And then, with the Highlands, were the first region to vanquish non power braked rolling stock on all trains. Useful as their more unusual wagons turned up all over the place  - we've discussed this recently. Other regions took years to follow that example. 

 

Paul

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

 

If you are meaning the Accurascale 21t mineral wagons (type MDV or MDO) then they were not used for either ballast or spoil on the WR, and not common in engineers use elsewhere.  

 

cheers

 

I'd not considered that before, but looking through my MDO and MDV photo collections there is not one that is in engineers use!

 

Paul

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

 

I'd not considered that before, but looking through my MDO and MDV photo collections there is not one that is in engineers use!

 

Paul

There were a handful of MDO that worked out of Tees Yard in the 1980s for the Civil Engineers. I've seen a published photo, but can't remember where.

[GONK43]

Fat Controller

When you say WR tip at Patchway, is this the Patchway  north of bristol?

gonk43

[Fat Controller]

25 minutes ago, GONK43 said:

Fat Controller

When you say WR tip at Patchway, is this the Patchway  north of bristol?

gonk43

That's the one; it's under the Hitachi depot. It was the tip for Bristol Division for many years.

[GONK43]

I spent most of my childhood in  Patchway. Was not in to locomotives in my early days.

Moved to station road, with the lines to and from wales.

Still remember the scream of the hst`s when they came out

[Fat Controller]

7 minutes ago, GONK43 said:

I spent most of my childhood in  Patchway. Was not in to locomotives in my early days.

Moved to station road, with the lines to and from wales.

Still remember the scream of the hst`s when they came out

And if the trains weren't noisy enough, there was the sound of the Rolls Royce engine load-banks. All this was almost silent when compared with the Vulcan used as a test bed for the Olympus engine for Concorde; I was working on Smoke Lane in Avonmouth when that was about.

[Rivercider]

59 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

That's the one; it's under the Hitachi depot. It was the tip for Bristol Division for many years.

Known as Stoke Gifford Tip, TOPS location number 81112. Other smaller tips in the West of England Division were at Yeovil Junction, and St Dennis Junction on the Newquay branch. St Andrews Road tip was a temporary affair, the BBHT reception sidings later occupied the site.

 

 

cheers

[GONK43]

I moved to station road at about 1980. Was 14 at that time. Most of my interest in railways was about 1977, just around the time of the hst introduction. So by 14 onwards, most of my attention was exams, going out with mates, and motorbikes.

Patchway station was a very quiet affair when I lived there.

I take it the Hitachi works were not there around the late 70`s?

I do remember one day, there were a lot of people gathering outside our house, and it was because a steam engine went by. From the Wales end to Patchway station!

Gonk43

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, GONK43 said:

I moved to station road at about 1980. Was 14 at that time. Most of my interest in railways was about 1977, just around the time of the hst introduction. So by 14 onwards, most of my attention was exams, going out with mates, and motorbikes.

Patchway station was a very quiet affair when I lived there.

I take it the Hitachi works were not there around the late 70`s?

I do remember one day, there were a lot of people gathering outside our house, and it was because a steam engine went by. From the Wales end to Patchway station!

Gonk43

The Hitachi presence only dates to the last few years- before that, there was a small fan of sidings, which were moved as the space next to them was filled. This wasn't as rapid a process as it might have been, as the used spoil was 'screened' before being sold for hard-core.