GWR engine weight classification

[kingmender]

I'm trying to find a table of GWR engines showing their weight classification colour. i.e. King double red, Castle, Hall, etc. red, and so on. Does anyone know where I can find one?

[Miss Prism]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1906.html

(admittedly not a complete table as you requested.)

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Miss Prism

[Harlequin]

A pretty comprehensive table can be found in the Appendix to George Behrend's book "Gone with Regret".

 

Entries have the form:

Class number, Type (wheel arrangement and tank type), Power group and Route Availability, Remarks.

 

It was compiled in the sixties and the author admits that it's not for the purists because it doesn't cover all the details but I think it gives a really good overview. Pity it's not online somewhere but the books are easily available second-hand and don't cost much.

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Harlequin

[Steamport Southport]

I'm sure I saw a full list somewhere online.

 

Might be on the other GWR website.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm sure I saw a full list somewhere online.

 

Might be on the other GWR website.

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index.htm

 

 

 

Jason

Oh dear - some of the stuff on there is rather naive to say the least.  The 1961 (sic) headlamp codes (why use 1961 when WR codes were changed in 1960 and were shown in the Regional Appendix?) and in any case they are misdescribed plus there are various errors.  The signal box bell codes are taken from the 1936 GWR Block Regulations and don't even include the early 1937 changes so they were actually only valid in all respects for a few months.  

 

But worst of all why use completely different dates for headlamp codes and bell codes thus ensuring that they don't properly correspond with each other?  Surely it would make a lot more sense to pick a common date where the two things actually agreed with each other even if some of the details were relatively short lived?  As there are readily available original (online) references which show headlamp codes and bell signals together surely that would be the neatest way of showing the information should somebody desire to link the two?

[Miss Prism]

Notwithstanding The Stationmaster's comments, John Daniel remains uncontactable, and has been so for over 20 years to my knowledge. I do wonder whether he is still alive.

 

[Harlequin]

22 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Notwithstanding The Stationmaster's comments, John Daniel remains uncontactable, and has been so for over 20 years to my knowledge. I do wonder whether he is still alive.

 

All rather mysterious because someone is renewing the domain name every few years.

 

I hope we don’t eventually lose the site. It would be great to see it actively managed again. Maybe it could be brought under the gwr.org.uk umbrella.

[Miss Prism]

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

All rather mysterious because someone is renewing the domain name every few years.

 

Possibly (thinking out loud) kept on as part of his will/estate??

 

4 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I hope we don’t eventually lose the site. It would be great to see it actively managed again. Maybe it could be brought under the gwr.org.uk umbrella.

 

I'd gladly take it on, but someone would need to give permission for the move.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Unfortunately I had a quick look through but it wasn't on there.

 

I wonder where I saw it. It was a table of all the classes with the route and power ratings. Someone had put a lot of effort into it as it also had the obscure classes such as the Absorbed engines.

 

Probably should have bookmarked it.

 

 

 

Jason

[DCB]

The old ABC books had a list of power classes and route colours.  I just looked up 1964.   BR WR shifted the goal posts a bit and wangled Britannias into the Red category when they should be double red with 21 tons axle load, and the 57XX were changed from Blue to Yellow at the stroke of a pen in 1950 (ish).

Edited August 17, 2022 by DCB

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, DCB said:

The old ABC books had a list of power classes and route colours.  I just looked up 1964.   BR WR shifted the goal posts a bit and wangled Britannias into the Red category when they should be double red with 21 tons axle load, and the 57XX were changed to Yellow from Blue at the stroke of a pen in 1951.

Not really.  The Red RA applied to engines with a maximum axle weight  of more than 17t 12 cwt while Double Red applied only to the 'Kings' with an axle weight of over 22 tons.  The maximum axle weight on a Brit was 20t 5 cwt - only 11cwt more than the maximum driving axle weights on a 'Castle' or Hawksworth 'County and 2 tons 5cwt less than the driving axle weight of a 'King' in original condition.

[melmerby]

12 hours ago, DCB said:

The old ABC books had a list of power classes and route colours.

 

The Great Western Way (book) lists them.

 

 

[DCB]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Not really.  The Red RA applied to engines with a maximum axle weight  of more than 17t 12 cwt while Double Red applied only to the 'Kings' with an axle weight of over 22 tons.  The maximum axle weight on a Brit was 20t 5 cwt - only 11cwt more than the maximum driving axle weights on a 'Castle' or Hawksworth 'County and 2 tons 5cwt less than the driving axle weight of a 'King' in original condition.

The limit was 20 tons in 1923 when the Castles were designed as the original design with the No 7 (47XX ) boiler came out too heavy and had to be reduced to under 20 tons. It later transpired that the Civil Engineer had actually been building bridges etc for 22 tons for some years and only 4 remained to be done between Paddington and Plymouth,  so by 1927 the Kings were designed for 22, later 22.5 tons axle load    The 20 ton limit for Red almost certainly lasted until the end of the GWRon 31/12/1947 and probably stayed in place until 1951, when Brits came and other changes put an extra 750  or so 57XX locos into the yellow category easing at a stroke the severe shortage of "Modern" under 50 year old locos.  The GWR didn't have any locos other than the Kings over 20 ton axle load and I don't know of any other railways locos heavier than 20 ton axle load working over GWR, as opposed to joint routes. I can only think of K3, Crabs and Compounds being 20 tons plus pre 1927      The LMS (Midland) had a different way of doing things with weight per foot run being more important than axle loading.

Edited June 30, 2022 by DCB

[JimC]

The classifications are listed individually in numerous places (to chuck in a swift plug my book has them including many absorbed) but I'm not aware of a single table anywhere showing them as a group. It wouldn't be too hard to compile something, they are mostly on Wikipedia I think for instance, but its a tedious bit of work.

[kingmender]

Thanks all. Some really useful pointers, I had started with my winter 61/62 combined volume, but alas no route info, just BR power classifiactions.Only lists locomotive and tender overall weights.

Rodger

[The Stationmaster]

If you want route information this is probably the best downloadable source but note that it has been amended up to various dates in the 1950s

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=634

 

You also need to understand that it does not include c various specific restrictions and relaxations over various sections of route and in yards and at stations.  For example it (correctly) shows the Cambrian mainline to Aberystwyth as Yellow RA but 'Manors' were permitted over it although they were Blue RA.   Depending on the date which interests you any detail information on particuar engine restrictions was given in the Service/Working Timetables - many of which are also available from Michael Clemens excellent website.

[Martin]

There was a reasonable list on the old Nottingham Victoria website by Tim Overton.  There is a snapshot on the wayback machine (https://web.archive.org/) under https://timothyplatypus.tripod.com/NottinghamVictoria/GWRclasslist.html 

 

    Martin

[Caledonian]

On 30/06/2022 at 01:24, DCB said:

The old ABC books had a list of power classes and route colours.  I just looked up 1964.   BR WR shifted the goal posts a bit and wangled Britannias into the Red category when they should be double red with 21 tons axle load, and the 57XX were changed to Yellow from Blue at the stroke of a pen in 1951.

 

OK confused here [yes, easily and often] Once upon a time I had a 57XX by Bachmann with a yellow RA disc. It also had GWR on the sides but for various reasons which needn't detain us I treated myself to a replacement body-shell from Bachman spares. Quite splendid and no regrets, but...

 

On the tank sides are the words Great Western which firmly predates British Railways, but the RA disc is blue !

[Miss Prism]

27 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

On the tank sides are the words Great Western which firmly predates British Railways, but the RA disc is blue !

 

the 57xx and 8750 class of Panniers were all re-classified in 1950 as 'Yellow' route engines rather than their previous blue category

[Caledonian]

Galloping senility is setting in. I originally read this as changing from yellow to blue 😳

[DCB]

16 hours ago, Caledonian said:

Galloping senility is setting in. I originally read this as changing from yellow to blue 😳

I changed it, it now says to Blue from Yellow which is the same thing but hopefully more logical.

 

18 hours ago, Caledonian said:

 

OK confused here [yes, easily and often] Once upon a time I had a 57XX by Bachmann with a yellow RA disc. It also had GWR on the sides but for various reasons which needn't detain us I treated myself to a replacement body-shell from Bachman spares. Quite splendid and no regrets, but...On the tank sides are the words Great Western which firmly predates British Railways, but the RA disc is blue !

Either Bachmann got it wrong or the Yellow disc model is of a loco running in post war GWR Livery after the change in RA, some lasted a long time lettered GWR some may have been scrapped lettered GWR though the  "Great Western" in full was phased out around 1930 when the silly little shirt button came in and the 57XX went black when overhauled during WW2.  I suspect Swindon indulged in some cunning stratagems to keep these locos from having black paint daubed all over them, but repainting the RA dot yellow would probably have been a priority, may even have been done at sheds.    GWR used letters for power class, A,B,C etc. based on the weight of train a loco could start.  The Midland used numbers based on a formula based on, something or other but not what the loco could start.  So if you had a 4F job and no 4F, you needed 2 X 1F so 1F + 1F = 4F.  And if a 7F failed then 2X 3F would do the job, so 1 + 1 is 4  and 2 + 3 is 7 as a general rule.
 

[Caledonian]

The "old" one was a model of 7788 which I understand was well known for retaining GWR livery well into British Railways days

 

So what was the reason for the change from blue to yellow for 57XXs ?

[Miss Prism]

30 minutes ago, Caledonian said:

So what was the reason for the change from blue to yellow for 57XXs ?

 

The axle loading on a 8750 remained considerably in excess of the normal yellow limit, but the hammerblow on the middle axle motion was considered to be 'acceptable'. The cynic's view is that the class was far too useful to not be allowed on yellow routes.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Miss Prism

[JimC]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 The cynic's view is that the class was far too useful to not be allowed on yellow routes.

Its funny though. The GWR/WR was building pretty capable yellow route 0-6-0PTs in the form of the 74s.  The number of yellow routes were diminishing, and by 1950 when the change was made most of the larger yellow route 0-6-0T had gone. Surprised there should have been a huge demand for yellow pannier tanks. But OTOH I've just looked at WTTS from the late 40s and I do see some routes where 57s were allowed and not other blue classes.

Edited August 17, 2022 by JimC

[Cwmtwrch]

51 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its funny though. The GWR/WR was building pretty capable yellow route 0-6-0PTs in the form of the 74s. 

The 57XX were power class C [including the condensing 97XX, which kept the Blue restriction]. The 64XX, 74xx and 16XX were power class A, as were the rapidly vanishing at nationalisation 1501, 1701 and 1813 classes, which were blue route anyway. Everything else was power class A, or unclassified, both with no route restriction, or C/Red.