Catch/trap point positioning - New track-plan for consideration

[Geep7]

I am building a small(ish) shunting layout on a couple of lack shelves (see the link in my signature), and i'm wondering where I need to position any catch/trap points.

 

So the track plan above shows the current arrangement (not totally 100% to scale, I just knocked it up in AnyRail). The line highlighted in red is a passenger line, which will be 3rd rail electrified, and the green line is the freight arrival line.

 

All the other lines are sidings (all lines terminate, for now, at the right-hand end), except that leading from the 3-way at the left hand end which leads to the fiddle yard.

 

I have highlighted in blue where I think I need the catch/trap points (the arrow shows which way they would direct any wayward wagons), but I was wondering if I would need any on the 2 sidings marked with an X.

 

Any help would be gratefully received.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Geep7

[5BarVT]

Unless you are very modern, and even then with the layout shown it would be down to semantics, passenger lines need to be trapped from Goods lines and sidings.  Thus both blue and the left hand X.

Paul.

[RailWest]

39 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Unless you are very modern, and even then with the layout shown it would be down to semantics, passenger lines need to be trapped from Goods lines and sidings.  Thus both blue and the left hand X.

Paul.

I would agree. The RH 'X' is superfluous.

 

Well, that makes for a short and simple thread :-)

[Edwin_m]

I think you're saying that the 2 Xs are actually more sidings, not possible trap points.  This being so the left hand one itself acts as as trap for the green track to its right.  The point would be worked together with the relevant part of the 3-way, so it would divert any errant train into the siding unless reversed for something to enter or leave the running line.  

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, RailWest said:

Well, that makes for a short and simple thread :-)

 

We haven't had the 17 page discussion about 3-way points in running lines yet...

[5BarVT]

1 minute ago, Wheatley said:

 

We haven't had the 17 page discussion about 3-way points in running lines yet...

Ventnor.

Q.E.D.   !

Paul.

[bécasse]

...... or even 4-way.

 

Kemp Town (Brighton).

[Geep7]

Thanks for all the input guys..... I knew I'd get in trouble with the 3-way 😆.

 

So, the take away is that I need 3 trap points then? The left hand X is for just a siding, not  running line.... so if you're suggesting that I need one there, then wouldn't I need one at the other X?

 

The reason for asking is I want to make the trap points operational, so either need to buy Peco trap points or modify some points, and I don't want to modify or buy to many....

[Dagworth]

14 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

o, the take away is that I need 3 trap points then? The left hand X is for just a siding, not  running line.... so if you're suggesting that I need one there, then wouldn't I need one at the other X?

No, you need two trap points in the positions shown blue on your plan. The left most siding with the X acts as the trap for the exit from the green route.

 

The red route is the one that has to be protected by traps, no other route.

 

Andi

[Geep7]

3 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

No, you need two trap points in the positions shown blue on your plan. The left most siding with the X acts as the trap for the exit from the green route.

 

The red route is the one that has to be protected by traps, no other route.

 

Andi

Ok, that's what I thought in the first place, thanks.

[brossard]

I think it admirable that you are going after catch points.  It's pretty rare to find working catch points on a layout in my experience.  I suppose the Peco ones are serviceable but I found a couple of good pictures of prototype catch points on line. 

 

I made my own in O gauge:

 

 

I used the Peco template as a guide. 

 

My points work, powered by Tortoise point motors.  You can do it independently or interlock them electrically with the downstream turnout that they protect.

 

John

[Dagworth]

4 minutes ago, brossard said:

I suppose the Peco ones are serviceable but I found a couple of good pictures of prototype catch points on line. 

Easiest answer is to cut ordinary Peco points in half, using only the switch part. I've done that on Ravensclyffe but Ipswich uses handbuilt points throughout, including two traps built so far.

 

Andi

[Geep7]

7 minutes ago, brossard said:

I think it admirable that you are going after catch points.  It's pretty rare to find working catch points on a layout in my experience.  I suppose the Peco ones are serviceable but I found a couple of good pictures of prototype catch points on line. 

 

I made my own in O gauge:

 

 

I used the Peco template as a guide. 

 

My points work, powered by Tortoise point motors.  You can do it independently or interlock them electrically with the downstream turnout that they protect.

 

John

I've done it before on my West Sands layout where I have a stabling siding running directly onto a platform road.

 

It actually served it's purpose once, when I tried moving a train out to the platform without changing the points first.

 

I'm of the belief that if we go to so much trouble detailing the stock and buildings, we should put at least some effort into our track being as accurate as possible, track gauge withstanding of course.

[Geep7]

5 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

Easiest answer is to cut ordinary Peco points in half, using only the switch part. I've done that on Ravensclyffe but Ipswich uses handbuilt points throughout, including two traps built so far.

 

Andi

I was thinking of this, but not sure about cutting perfectly serviceable points in half, especially as the are code 75 as well....

 

I think i'll go for the Peco catch points, as I've used them before, but will improve them a bit.

[Dagworth]

6 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

I was thinking of this, but not sure about cutting perfectly serviceable points in half, especially as the are code 75 as well....

 

I think i'll go for the Peco catch points, as I've used them before, but will improve them a bit.

Maybe asking Peco to make proper trap points as well as the catch points currently in the range would be worthwhile? Not you personally but a general "we need these" type campaign.

 

Andi

[brossard]

8 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

Maybe asking Peco to make proper trap points as well as the catch points currently in the range would be worthwhile? Not you personally but a general "we need these" type campaign.

 

Andi

 

They are not difficult to make.  The only tricky bit would be the blades.

 

John

 

Edit, just checked, Peco's catchpoint in O is 33.00, choke gasp!  Very much worth handbuilding.

Edited September 8, 2022 by brossard

[Geep7]

Yes, it's weird they only do a single blade catch point. I guess it saves on cost grounds.

 

I'm really torn between them and modifying a couple of normal peco points.... I'm not sure I can bear wasting the other 2 halves of the sacrificial points.

[Dagworth]

10 minutes ago, Geep7 said:

it's weird they only do a single blade catch point

The Catch Point is a very different beast to a trap point, catch points are (were) used on gradients to catch any breakaways in the days of loose coupled and unbraked freight trains. They were sprung open but would be pushed closed by the train passing over them in the normal direction (up the gradient). Once the train had passed they would spring open again to be ready to derail anything that broke away and started running back down the gradient the wrong way. Usually they also had a sign showing there position too. Being spring worked it was vital that they were clipped and scotched in the event of single line working and a man would be stationed at them with a hand signal to show the driver that they were safe to pass over in the wrong direction. 

 

All a very different use to the trap points of the topic and not really the right Peco item to use in the situation as asked for by the OP.

 

Andi

Edited September 8, 2022 by Dagworth

[brossard]

Here is a pretty famous video of catch points  (? I always get confused) in action:

 

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, brossard said:

Here is a pretty famous video of catch points  (? I always get confused) in action:

 

 

John

Trap points - doing a very good job of trapping an engine driven by a total idiot who kept the regulator open not only after the first set of tender wheels hit the ground but even after the loco came off.

[big jim]

1 hour ago, Dagworth said:

The Catch Point is a very different beast to a trap point, catch points are (were) used on gradients to catch any breakaways in the days of loose coupled and unbraked freight trains. They were sprung open but would be pushed closed by the train passing over them in the normal direction (up the gradient). Once the train had passed they would spring open again to be ready to derail anything that broke away and started running back down the gradient the wrong way. Usually they also had a sign showing there position too. Being spring worked it was vital that they were clipped and scotched in the event of single line working and a man would be stationed at them with a hand signal to show the driver that they were safe to pass over in the wrong direction. 

 

there are modern motorised catch points at the either end of snow hill station on both running lines, motorised as the platforms are bi-directional so they need to close to allow trains to pass over, their ‘normal’ position is set to derail, the worrying thing is the ones at the moor st end send you toward the tunnel wall

 

without saying too much I discovered what position ‘normal’ was while on a possession when I spotted them set to derail during a move, thankfully I was trailing though and managed to stop with just one axle about a foot through through them, still damaged the tiebar and hydraulics, P way managed to pump them back across manually them clip them so I could set back clear of them, had I not noticed my next planned move was to set back through them with the trian which would have derailed it about half way along! 

 

an investigation put it down to miscommunication, the engineering supervisor had asked for them to be set for the mainline and the picop relayed that message back to the signaller as set them to normal, normal being derail! 
 

(sorry for the slight divert!) 
 

 

[BWsTrains]

8 hours ago, brossard said:

I think it admirable that you are going after catch points.  It's pretty rare to find working catch points on a layout in my experience.  I suppose the Peco ones are serviceable but I found a couple of good pictures of prototype catch points on line. 

 

I made my own in O gauge:

 

 

I used the Peco template as a guide. 

 

My points work, powered by Tortoise point motors.  You can do it independently or interlock them electrically with the downstream turnout that they protect.

 

John

 

And I've just reported my build of a working curved OO gauge Code 75 Bullhead trap point from a Finetrax kit here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/173620-upper-hembury-east-devon-a-gwr-sr-branch-line/?do=findComment&comment=4923612

 

I needed a single blade in my setting but the same approach would apply for doubles as shown above.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by BWsTrains

[Izzy]

I must confess I’ve never quite sorted out when they should be single or double-bladed, so as I’ve always mostly made my own track I tend to be lazy and just use single blades. That they work and are paired/linked to the relevant point does have it’s advantages as I found by accident here……

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/147403-priory-road-north-east-essex-in-br-days/?do=findComment&comment=4913441

 

Bob

[The Stationmaster]

Is this the ultimate in 21st  century trap points?  It replaced a fairly similar piece of bullhead track but interestingly instead of simplification the original was copied using modern standard components.  and if anything did get 'trapped' by it there would inevitably be damage at the turnout end.

 

[Geep7]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Is this the ultimate in 21st  century trap points?  It replaced a fairly similar piece of bullhead track but interestingly instead of simplification the original was copied using modern standard components.  and if anything did get 'trapped' by it there would inevitably be damage at the turnout end.

 

Ah, West end of Didcot stabling sidings.... It looks like it's 2 trap points in one protecting the exit from both sidings. I'm guessing that there isn't much space for a proper trap to be put in at the toe of the point and include enough deflection space away from the running track in the foregroound.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Geep7