West London Line Traffic

[South of 1E]

not good news for freight or the ex railtrack planners but tomorrow new West London timetable sees a big increase in WLL and NLL passenger frequency with 378's in abundance!!. It may help the rush hour crush (which is desperatley needed) a little and recent NLL resignalling has perhaps eased slotting freights and intense passenger frequency a little but with the number of WLL farces in recent years it does make you think if the line can cope with so much additional passenger traffic

 

NR

[Southernman46]

All through the 1970/80's there was a return Temple Mills - Sheerness steel scrap train in daylight - Class 33 and 30-40 MCV's with the occasional BDV bogie bolster and conflat with the 3 small containers containing limestone.

 

this train then used the big bright blue "Sheerness Steel" PXA's

 

 

 

Just as an NB - works are on-going atm to re-double the track on the Latchmere curve from Clapham Jn to Latchmere No.(can't remember which one) junction.

[roythebus]

Pity they didn't close the NLL like they threatened in the 1970's, then we wouldn't have this problem now!

[Glorious NSE]

A heavy freight train travelling along this route is almost guaranteed to have to follow a 'juicer' from Latchmere to Mitre Bridge/Willesden, that seems to take absolutely forever to get through the signal sections on this portion of line for whatever reason.......they take blooming AGES

 

I suspect one of the problems is the signalling isn't neccesarily optimised for the new station locations, for example Imperial Wharf appears to be located inside a signal overlap in both directions and on both tracks, so anything doing a station stop there will hold the following train two signals behind it until it has cleared the platform there...

[Shedmaster]

I suspect one of the problems is the signalling isn't neccesarily optimised for the new station locations, for example Imperial Wharf appears to be located inside a signal overlap in both directions and on both tracks, so anything doing a station stop there will hold the following train two signals behind it until it has cleared the platform there...

 

 

Thanks for the suggestion here, I reckon you could well be erm.......on the right track !

 

I've had it out with a number of senior Drivers who worked the route years ago, and one guy in particular asked what my problem was as all that had been done, was for 'the stations to be put back in'?

 

When you travel the route you can still see various old platforms still in situ, one is only a few hundred yards from Imperial Wharf towards the footy ground. I suspect that if these sites had been re-used, it would have worked better for the traffic flow as you suggest.

 

I would certainly not advocate closing the line to do away with the problems but do have to question the maths for running more trains than you can actually accommodate, whilst maintaining a robust service.

 

Then again, what would be the solution to enable a growing freight network to have good pathways AND run enough trains to serve the passenger demands with longer trains etc ?

 

What ? Lay more track..............????? Preposterous idea...........

 

Well.......they've done it at Latchmere No.2, so maybe some more expansion along the route would be warranted, although Chelsea River Bridge would then still be a real bottleneck.

 

Dave

[Karhedron]

Thanks for that information. Do you know if the milk traffic from South Wales and West Country just went to Wood Lane and therefore not south of Kensington through Chelsea to Clapham Junction?

I am pretty sure that the tankers from the WR milk trains went to more bottling plants than just Wood Lane. Wood Lane was a Unigate facility but the WR had creameries owned by other companies (St Ivel and Nestle both spring to mind). Tankers from these creameries could well have gone elsewhere.

 

I have an article on the subject from the 1950s which lists the destinations of the milk tankers from a typical Penzance - London milk milk train. I will try and look it up when I get a chance but I am almost sure that the tanks went to almost as many destinations as they were picked up from.

[bob liddle]

Many thanks for that and look forward to more information from the article when you get some time.

[Oldddudders]

Thanks for that information. Do you know if the milk traffic from South Wales and West Country just went to Wood Lane and therefore not south of Kensington through Chelsea to Clapham Junction?

Almost certainly not. The Southern had its own milk services, thankyou very much! Elsewhere on RMWeb, Darren's excellent Torrington layout has a milk depot, and the Southern Railway and successor Southern Region ran daily milk trains from there via Exeter Central to London, with Vauxhall and Morden South among the destinations. This might give a little more insight http://www.svsfilm.com/nineelms/torr.htm.

 

I think that regular milk via the WLL across Chelsea Bridge is therefore unlikely.

[Karhedron]

Many thanks for that and look forward to more information from the article when you get some time.

I can now confirm that some milk tanks from the WR were routed to bottling plants in South London. I do not know exactly why this pattern of workings were used but I would guess it was to do with balancing the capacity of production and bottling against the ownership of the tankers and the haulage capacity of the locos.

 

The following excerts are from "Home with the Milk" by R.C. Riley and was published in "Trains Illustrated" March 1959.

 

I decided to resume my journey from Plymouth on the 12.20 p.m. from Penzance.

(snip)

On leaving Plymouth the train was made up of tanks routed: St. Erth-Mitre Bridge (2), St. Erth-Cricklewood, Lostwithiel-Queens Park, Saltash - Queens Park; with a rear-end van, this made six vehicles for 168 tons.

 

On that particular day the 12.20 p.m. Penzance was something like a train, made up of tanks for Staverton (2), Morden South (4), Mottingham (2), Wandsworth Road (1), Queens Park (1), Cricklewood (1), Mitre Bridge (4), Ilford (1) and a van, 17 vehicles for 476 tons. The train engine was of a type encountered on the milk trains only on busy summer week-ends, 2-8-0 No. 2820. Apart from the Staverton tanks, which would be detached at Westbury, all the destinations were in the London area.

 

As can be seen, milk tanks in a particular train could end up distributed all over London. A lot of trains were routed to Kensington Olympia and the tanks remarshalled there for forwarding to the relevant bottling plants.

 

The workings in this area are complicated and could form the subject of a whole article, but the following are the usual London destinations of West Country milk traffic:-

 

W.R.- West Ealing, Wood Lane.

L.M.R.- Bollo Lane (South Acton), Mitre Bridge (Willesden Junction), Queens Park, Cricklewood, Marylebone.

E.R.- Ilford.

S.R.- Wandsworth Road, Stewarts Lane, Morden South, Mottingham.

 

These are not the only London centres, but the ones to which traffic from the Western Region is directed. Each depot belongs to one or other of the big milk combines.

[roythebus]

Closing the NLL was indeed on the cards in the late 60's early 70's, though my comment was tongue in cheek!

 

I remember a lot of horse box traffic to Olympia for exhibitions; it may have been mentioned that Kenny was used when they first re-signalled Paddington. The sight of a Western with a west country express was to be remembered.

 

I also remember that passenger services could have been re-introduced many years earlier, but it was thought that they would extract too much traffic from the Underground!

[bob liddle]

Excellent information from one and all - so I can run some milk traffic through Chelsea to South London! Many thanks.

[roythebus]

The bay platforms at the south end of Kenny were used for the horse boxes.

 

Looking at the design and layout of the WLL, it was designed as the prototype fiddle yard/hidden loops to hold vast amount of goods trains waiting for paths onto the SR!

[acg5324]

a couple of useful books to get on the West London Line are:-

 

West London joint Railway by J Atkinson and

 

West London Line by Middleton Press

[bob liddle]

Thanks for that - I did get them some time ago and they have been a great help.

[bob liddle]

Work on the layout based on a location of Chelsea on the WLL, albeit with some changes to history of the location for my purposes, is moving on based on my earlier thread.

 

Now I am reseaching the locomotives that ran on the line particularly those other than BR standards or SR ones which I know worked through. Did any WR.LMR or ER locomotives migrate south of Kensington on through Chelsea to Clapham and may be beyond, or even to the basin yard at Chelsea. I know a great variety of diesels did but can find virtually no information on steam locomotives for the 1960`s.

 

I know some panniers did but I believe many passenger through trains from the north had a loco change at Kensington. But what about the numerous inter regional through freight trains that ran, surely they did not all change locos at Kensington?

 

I seem to have hit a brick wall with the internet web sites and the WLL books so any help on this would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

[The Stationmaster]

Chelsea basin was a Western yard so serviced by the Western; Western locos also worked through to South Lambeth (another Western terminal) but I think this was all pannier worked, certainly so in later years.

[bob liddle]

Thanks - I just keep wandering about all those through inter regional freights and cannot believe they changed locos at Kensington!!!????

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks - I just keep wandering about all those through inter regional freights and cannot believe they changed locos at Kensington!!!????

 

They didn't! WR locos (and others of course) worked through to the Southern and vice versa, I've got some details for older freight trips (late 1940s and not WLL as such but I can trace some which ran that way) but that's about my lot I'm afraid.

[bob liddle]

Thats what I would have thought must have happened although have not been able to confirm on the tinternet. When you get a bit of time I would very much appreciate any details you may have of late forties movements and any of the locos involved. The practice would not have changed through to the 60`s I imagine.

 

Many thanks in advance.

[roythebus]

I remember seeing pannier tanks at Latchmere and Clapham Junction in 1964/65, so yes they did work through. Strangely enough I never saw any of the through passnger working, but then I wne to school in Battersea so only used to see the famous Kenny Belle on a regular basis.

 

That, as I've probably said in other posts, could be one of about 4 coach sets they used, and locos could be anything from a standard tank to a Q1 to a Bullied pacific!

 

Coach sets were a maroon short suburban set; a green full length suburban set including S100S with the white roof; a hybrid set with 2 Bullieds and 2 green suburbans, and another hybrid with 3 green suburbans and a Bullied brake.

[bob liddle]

Interesting about the coach sets which I did not know.

 

Many thanks

[Il Grifone]

My Ian Allan abcs have various disc headcodes for 'foreign' trains working through to the Southern region via the WLL. This suggests, but doesn't of course confirm, that the locos worked the train right through. The question does arise as to where the discs were fitted - at the start of the journey or just before passing onto the Southern (presumably at Chelsea)?

[The Stationmaster]

My Ian Allan abcs have various disc headcodes for 'foreign' trains working through to the Southern region via the WLL. This suggests, but doesn't of course confirm, that the locos worked the train right through. The question does arise as to where the discs were fitted - at the start of the journey or just before passing onto the Southern (presumably at Chelsea)?

As far as workings to/from the Western were concerned the headcodes applied throughout, examples -

Western Region train to Hither Green (worked by WR engine), 2 white lamps - one at foot of chimney, one in centre of buffer beam.

Norwood Yard to Old Oak Common - 3 white lamps on the three bufferbeam positions

Western Region to/from Victoria (Eastern side) - one white lamp at foot of chimney.

[Il Grifone]

Thanks!

 

They used lamps then and not discs? Was there not confusion with normal headcodes?

[jonny777]

Does anyone know if, in the 1960s, the Cliffe-Uddingston cement trains worked via the WLL? I have seen them 9F hauled on the ECML, before the 33s took over, and wondered if they worked through to the SR or changed locos somewhere en route?