Hornby Clan

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Which with regard to recent discussion on this thread is prototypical for that particular locomotive.

R3995 Clan MacDonald is the version which appears to have the most mistakes as modelled in the form of a green running plate, bang plate fitted to a non AWS fitted loco and a  incorrectly coloured rear tender panel and dome.

You missed the point.

 

Yes the real loco had green cylinders… but why did it ?

[Black 5 Bear]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

You missed the point.

 

Yes the real loco had green cylinders… but why did it ?

Only Crewe works could provide the explaination you seek and the chances of you finding that are minimal.

 

[Ian Hargrave]

When Hornby brought out

their first version of the Clan,it met with a chorus of approval and calls for another run.I know that in the meantime things have changed in the Hornby camp and different personnel have their own ideas and methods but they had a top class model over a decade ago,so why the necessity the significantly alter its appearance ?  To date,no new documentary or photographic evidence has been found and in any case,colour images were only to be had by hard to come by 35mm camera film and sending the film for processing and mounting for use in a slide projector .Unless someone is hoarding a cache in their loft,there’s little joy there.It seems records from Crewe have disappeared in the mists of time so somehow we’ve ended up with a different finish instead of another shot at the same one.  I acknowledge that Hornby have their own reasons for this and that most are very happy with their new Clan .But I do remember BR Standards in lined green on the day and simply,this ain’t it.

 

[pH]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

You missed the point.

 

Yes the real loco had green cylinders… but why did it ?

 

1 hour ago, Black 5 Bear said:

Only Crewe works could provide the explaination you seek and the chances of you finding that are minimal.

 

Given that it has the later emblem, and Cowlairs was responsible for maintenance from the spring of 1958, maybe Cowlairs has/had the answer.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, pH said:

 

Given that it has the later emblem, and Cowlairs was responsible for maintenance from the spring of 1958, maybe Cowlairs has/had the answer.

And how  can such information be accessed  ?  It is however plausible. 

[pH]

3 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

And how  can such information be accessed  ?  It is however plausible. 

With no more ease or difficulty than accessing it if it was held by Crewe?

 

I could speculate on a possible reason if it indeed was done by Cowlairs, but it would need much more evidence than I can find. And there’s enough uncertainty in this topic already.

[Black 5 Bear]

2 hours ago, pH said:

 

Given that it has the later emblem, and Cowlairs was responsible for maintenance from the spring of 1958, maybe Cowlairs has/had the answer.

Well in that case let's see if Cowlairs has indeed the answer to the this question, which I very much doubt.

I was under the impression that 72009 was outshopped in this livery (Late Crest BR) from Crewe works.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Black 5 Bear

[ardbealach]

If it was Cowlairs paint shop, as suggested, who did the later paintwork on the clans, they probably made it up as to which colours that were to be used as a best guess,  and it would have been to their own specification.  No doubt it would have been done without any reference to what had been carried out previously over the border down south in Crewe. (Alisdair)

[robmcg]

Would an ancient black and white faded photo help?   not sure about the reliability of old photos...

 

Came from the collection of an old man who dribbles, so probably not much use....  but he does mumble about old BR steam days a bit, maybe he pointed his box brownie at 72009? 

 

 

 

[robmcg]

12 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
Great photos again Rob but comparison In what respect ?   Below the running plate,the Clan is probably the better.

As far as livery and lining are concerned,I’m sure the V2 is more prototypically accurate. In any case,they’re two different models of two different locos.

 

I have paid for a V2 but of course yet to arrive, and the photos on Gilbert Barnatt's Peterborough North thread show a production promotional model with coarse motion, lumpy boiler bands and bright contrasy lining, small cab wondows, odd cab-firebox joint, and a generally plastic finish, the detail parts being more robust perhaps than Hornby.  Even Tim's outstanding weathering didn't really save it. But I'm only going by photos, as as you know, these can vary.   

 

Even in prototype photos in BR green in steam days, variations in photos were vast. I am very happy with the green and lining on the Clans.  

[adb968008]

On a side topic, how often did the class of 10 actually share a shed together at the same time ?

 

Did they operate set diagrams ? As photos put them all over a wide area, my impression is seeing one, was a thing of chance, what about seeing several in one day ?

 

when it comes to classes of 10, Looking over my dads spotting notes, he saw D1-D10 in one day, but that was Derby works open day in August 1959, and they were brand new, some under construction..so that obviously no help to me. (He set off from Manchester via Woodhead and south to Derby), and caught several EM2’s that day too, but again that wasn't that hard.

 

But through his wider notes Ive not seen more than 1 72xxx in the same day in any of his spotting books, though he has several dozens of books (1950’s-2017)  and I’ve not gone that far through them, knowing I could stop by 1967, but thats still several boxes…

 

its easier to ask, but i’m assuming one wouldn't turn up a sunday morning and find a shed full of clans ?

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

20 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

On a side topic, how often did the class of 10 actually share a shed together at the same time ?

 

Did they operate set diagrams ? As photos put them all over a wide area, my impression is seeing one, was a thing of chance, what about seeing several in one day ?

 

when it comes to classes of 10, Looking over my dads spotting notes, he saw D1-D10 in one day, but that was Derby works open day in August 1959, and they were brand new, some under construction..so that obviously no help to me. (He set off from Manchester via Woodhead and south to Derby), and caught several EM2’s that day too, but again that wasn't that hard.

 

But through his wider notes Ive not seen more than 1 72xxx in the same day in any of his spotting books, though he has several dozens of books (1950’s-2017)  and I’ve not gone that far through them, knowing I could stop by 1967, but thats still several boxes…

 

its easier to ask, but i’m assuming one wouldn't turn up a sunday morning and find a shed full of clans ?

 

 

Several of the Scottish allocation were stored at Polmadie at the same time in the early 60s. But i take your point, such a small class would rarely be gathered in multiple numbers at the same shed at any one time. 

[pH]

28 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

On a side topic, how often did the class of 10 actually share a shed together at the same time ?

I can confidently say “Never”.

 

5 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Several of the Scottish allocation were stored at Polmadie at the same time in the early 60s. But i take your point, such a small class would rarely be gathered in multiple numbers at the same shed at any one time. 

That would have been the period when it would have been possible to see the most together - all 5 Polmadie engines stored in Polmadie shed yard before they were moved en masse to Parkhead shed and then to Darlington Works for scrapping, plus any of the Kingmoor ones (one or two at most) which had worked into Glasgow at the same time.

[robmcg]

15 hours ago, apollanaut said:

Great photos Rob, as usual!

 

I’m also the proud owner of 72009, which I purchased from Ironhorse Hobbies in Christchurch as they were selling it at more-or-less the same price as the UK retailers.

 

I simply had to have this version because it’s also my namesake loco  (my first name is actually Stewart!).

 

I’m on the fence regarding the green footplate, as I’ve studied the photos of the prototypes and agree that it’s hard to tell what the actual colour is from old shots of grimy, hard-working Clans in action.

 

But there’s one area where the new version is a distinct improvement on my older model of Clan MacGregor. The clarity, hue and sharpness of the numerals and fine lining is much better on the 2021 version than my older model: as shown in these closeups I took of the two cabsides for comparison:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for pointing out those differences, I certainly wouldn't have noticed the relatively coarse numerals and lining on any of my earlier-production Clans. The sharpness on 72009 is astounding.  

 

I suspect my eyes aren't as good as they once were, but more and more I tend to look for a pleasing overall effect, which is actually quite tricky to photograph, modern cameras and phones being so very, very good.  

 

Anyway a box just arrived on my doorstep, a weathered 72004 from TMC... so we shall see in due course just how good these models can be made to look. 

 

I sspect Clans were sometimes seen together, they tended to be allocated to two sheds, Polmadie being one, and later on was it Carlisle Upperby for the surviving five? 

[Helmdon]

21 minutes ago, robmcg said:

 

later on was it Carlisle Upperby for the surviving five? 

Kingmoor. It was Polmadie and Kingmoor pretty well all the way through.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, robmcg said:

 

I have paid for a V2 but of course yet to arrive, and the photos on Gilbert Barnatt's Peterborough North thread show a production promotional model with coarse motion, lumpy boiler bands and bright contrasy lining, small cab wondows, odd cab-firebox joint, and a generally plastic finish, the detail parts being more robust perhaps than Hornby.  Even Tim's outstanding weathering didn't really save it. But I'm only going by photos, as as you know, these can vary.   

 

Even in prototype photos in BR green in steam days, variations in photos were vast. I am very happy with the green and lining on the Clans.  

And so the world turns. Being the owner of a first version Clan,I certainly would have purchased one of these had they not given me considerable qualms over the shades of paint and lining that they do.As it is ,having expressed these more than a few times on this forum I’ll pass. If you and others are happy that’s your choice and one that I’m sure will give you endless hours of pleasure . However, I do not understand the comparison with the V2 which has a separate thread and has nothing to do with the Clan. For the record,I too have issues with it which I have expressed but this is not the place to air them is it ? 

[robmcg]

True Ian, it is not the place to compare with Bachmann's V2,  t'was a passing thought given your reservations about Hornby's BR green on the Clan.

[Ian Hargrave]

7 minutes ago, robmcg said:

True Ian, it is not the place to compare with Bachmann's V2,  t'was a passing thought given your reservations about Hornby's BR green on the Clan.

OK fine but topic drift has been an issue elsewhere on this forum this weekend.

[dagrizz]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

But through his wider notes Ive not seen more than 1 72xxx in the same day in any of his spotting books

 

I saw two of them at Coventry within a few minutes of each other one day in May 1963. They'd worked specials from the north west and were both serviced at Rugby before returning north.

 

Graham

[robmcg]

On 06/12/2021 at 10:54, Ian Hargrave said:

And so the world turns. Being the owner of a first version Clan,I certainly would have purchased one of these had they not given me considerable qualms over the shades of paint and lining that they do.As it is ,having expressed these more than a few times on this forum I’ll pass. If you and others are happy that’s your choice and one that I’m sure will give you endless hours of pleasure .

.....

 

Indeed both old Clans from the 2009-11 series and the new ones do give me pleasure, Ian.

 

With I hope a light-hearted comparison and not anything too serious, here is my 2011 72005 'Clan MacGregor' pristine late crest, obviously 'altered' by photo effects, and my 2021 72009 'Clan Stewart' equally meddled.

 

If I put these side-by-side the differences are primarily the green paint on cylinders, firebox and running plate top for 72009, also has yellow wheel bearing covers, and no paint on the whistle.. except that which I mischeviously added some colour there. 

 

They are equally good in my opinion, similar value-for-money too,  I am filled with admiration and thankfulness that Hornby could take fourteen-plus-year old tools and using a different factory and new employees, still produce anything of this astonishing qualty.

 

Let's face it, who among us could assemble a modern model like this? Let alone design and make the parts? Bachmann and others can, but it certainly isn't an easy job.

 

So here are my photos, old model vs new.

 

72005  2011 model from memory

 

 

and 72009 2021 model

 

 

I do hope these edited pictures do not offend, I will be very pleased to visit a similar fate upon Bachmann's V2 when it arrives.

 

Cheers

 

[MikeParkin65]

Interesting review in this months Railway Modeller. It cites the rendition of green as being ‘different’ and also finds no evidence for the green running boards.  Notes missing red stripes on the tender axle box covers also notes missing electrification warning flashes next to the smoke box. 

[robmcg]

For those who are interested, a TMC 'value weathered' R3995 BR 72004 'Clan MacGregor' .

 

 

Not a bad starting point, I like the way the bright wheel rims have gone, and there is some soot along the front of the boiler-top. Photo in partly artificial light, it's less brown around the wheels in natural light. 

 

Cheers

Edited December 10, 2021 by robmcg
addition

[LimboBrit]

I'm becoming really frustrated. My renumbered/renamed Clan has been stuck for three weeks waiting for Dutch customs clearance. Aaaaagggh!

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, LimboBrit said:

I'm becoming really frustrated. My renumbered/renamed Clan has been stuck for three weeks waiting for Dutch customs clearance. Aaaaagggh!

Presumably its been described as BR Green but the customs just won't believe it 

[sjp23480]

6 hours ago, robmcg said:

For those who are interested, a TMC 'value weathered' R3995 BR 72004 'Clan MacGregor' .

 

 

Not a bad starting point, I like the way the bright wheel rims have gone, and there is some soot along the front of the boiler-top. Photo in partly artificial light, it's less brown around the wheels in natural light. 

 

Cheers

Great picture Rob - you seem to have a knack for capturing the character and essence of these models.

 

Steve