Combe Martin Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Talking about the splasher shape I'm not so sure about this, many photos show quite a sharp angle with no hint of a radius. Others, where it looks like there might be a curve, are misleading because the effect is really that of the flat beading either on the splasher or on the running plate. The frame shape between the splashers also seems to lead the eye to believe there is a curve. Well I only noticed it when I looked at the big picture of 43216 (the 8th one down) on the Newman web site pictures mentioned a little earlier in this thread. Also, have a look at pages 79 and 80 of the Bradford Barton book, pictures of 43593 and 43218. These are quite large pictures and the curve, particularly at the front of the leading splasher is very clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I see what you mean. After rummaging through the Essery & Jenkinson volumes, there appears to be a range of small differences. Some have an abrupt angle, some have a piece of beading which sometimes gives the impression of a curve, and others do appear to have a definite curve. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2011 I see what you mean. After rummaging through the Essery & Jenkinson volumes, there appears to be a range of small differences. Some have an abrupt angle, some have a piece of beading which sometimes gives the impression of a curve, and others do appear to have a definite curve. Nick It seems that the best advice, therefore, as ever is to model your chosen prototype as best you can from the photographic evidence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) An interesting photo of the left hand side of the Bachmann model has been posted on the main 3F thread by DerekEm8 showing the slightly overscale splashers. This also raises another question for those of us who might wish to convert the model into a representation of a Bulldog. Photos of the left hand side of Bulldogs taken from about 1950 onwards all show a single Wakefield lubricator between the front and middle splashers. In contrast, the lubricator does not appear on many photos of ex-Midland 3Fs, including several of those running on the Somerset & Dorset up to the late fifties. Earlier photos indicate that there was no lubricator in the late twenties, so when were these fitted? Are they another S&D oddity, or were they fitted more widely? Nick Edited December 4, 2011 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted December 4, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 4, 2011 Just to be pedantic, would that not be a Silvertown lubricator as widely fitted to Midland and LMS locos? It certainly looks like one in this photo from the previously linked page. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) I think you could well be right, Simon. Here's a comparable photo claimed to be a Wakefield. It just goes to show that you should never believe what you read in kit instructions, I was just going on what they were called in my Brassmasters 4F kit Nick Edited December 4, 2011 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted December 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 5, 2011 Definatley a silvertown, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintus Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The S&D Bulldogs had gravity sanding, hence the operating rod. (the Midland ones had steam sanders) They also had the additional front sandbox with the fillers protruding under the valence. Problem is that the centre sandbox was t'other way round on the S&D engines! Most of the S&D engines retained the wood sandwich front buffer plank, which had bolts rather than rivets. 43194 seems to have retained the full beading on the cabside. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) ...Problem is that the centre sandbox was t'other way round on the S&D engines!... Yes, it somehow looks wrong... Most of the S&D engines retained the wood sandwich front buffer plank, which had bolts rather than rivets.43194 seems to have retained the full beading on the cabside. Good point about the sandwich buffer beam. 43204 also retained the cab beading until at least 1950. Nick ps. looking back over the thread, I notice that though we'd mentioned the lever and additional sandbox we hadn't actually mentioned the gravity/steam distinction, so also worth adding for completeness. Edited January 5, 2012 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) 1. Like devonseasider I built an MPD 3F. Mine was numbered as 43194, one of the SDJR ones. Thanks to the very useful info in this thread I'll just have to fit front sand boxes and the operating rod to finally finish it.... 2. I bought a Bachman 3F, excellent model, intending to renumber it to one that had run on the SDJR. (The model comes as 43762, with the early emblem on the tender). Now in the spare parts list in the instructions, 2 tender tops are shown, one with 2 vents, one without. Th early emblem model doesn't have vents. The instructions state that the versions with the vents had a water scoop. Looking through reference books, I can't see any 3F on the SDJR in BR days with a vented tender although it's difficult to make out from the angles of most photos. There do seem to be 4Fs with tender vents, though. So, did any 3Fs have water scoop tenders on the SDJR - and am I right in thinking that the line didn't have water troughs at all? Bill Edited January 30, 2012 by railroadbill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think you are right, Bill. I don't recall seeing any 3F tender on the S&DJR with vents and scoops. The odd examples of 4Fs with them are, I think, on ones imported by the LMS and then only on the later Fowler tenders which had been cascaded from other engines. There were no troughs on the S&D, so the scoops were not needed. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted January 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2012 So, did any 3Fs have water scoop tenders on the SDJR - and am I right in thinking that the line didn't have water troughs at all? Bill I don't know if any of the 3F's that ran on the SDJ had scoops or not but the line certainly didn't have any troughs. For a start there wasn't a long enough stretch of level track! Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 When we were discussing the 3Fs on the S&D earlier in this thread, I did an analysis of all the pictures I could find (over 80) to establish which tenders were attached to which locos, and I came to the conclusion that if you want to renumber the Bachmann 3F as an S&D example (but not a Bulldog) and have a 'long life' loco, then 43682 was the best choice as it lasted until September 1962, and it dosn't have tender vents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks, Nick Jerry and Combe martin for the above info about water scoop tenders. Looks like the Bachmann 3F I've now got has the right tender for a non-Bulldog loco on the SDJR, so I can have one of each type (having already got a kit built version of "Bulldog" 43194). 43682 sounds a good number. Ta, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I hope your 43194 has got the smaller 2950 gallon tender too, with the longer coal rails and different front coal plate as well ?? Are you DCC and needing to take the Bachmann tender body off to fit a decoder. If you do, be aware that with Bachmann's 43762 the tender body seems to be glued to the tender footplate moulding at the front, which in turn is glued to the tender frames, so when you undo the single screw underneath and lift the rear of the body up to remove it, it dosn't want to come off, until eventually something snaps, hopefully only the glue that shouldn't be there. With mine, the tender footplate moulding also 'pinged' off snapping one of it's 2 locating pins as well as the glue holding it to the frames. ...... not very good Mr Bachmann ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I hope your 43194 has got the smaller 2950 gallon tender too, with the longer coal rails and different front coal plate as well ?? Are you DCC and needing to take the Bachmann tender body off to fit a decoder. If you do, be aware that with Bachmann's 43762 the tender body seems to be glued to the tender footplate moulding at the front, which in turn is glued to the tender frames, so when you undo the single screw underneath and lift the rear of the body up to remove it, it dosn't want to come off, until eventually something snaps, hopefully only the glue that shouldn't be there. With mine, the tender footplate moulding also 'pinged' off snapping one of it's 2 locating pins as well as the glue holding it to the frames. ...... not very good Mr Bachmann ! 1. No (sob). Afraid RM web wasn't around in 1981 or thereabouts when I built it. Tender also has a ludicously overcomplicated sprung/compensated chassis that I developed that does however pick up current very well. So a tad too late to rebuild it perhaps, I'd have to take all the real coal off... The etched smokebox number plate came from Eames of Reading as a custom job. There's a name from the past. Also at the time I sprayed the loco with polyurethene matt varnish, which I would not now do as I believe the spray is carcenogenic. However the finish is very good and extremely tough, strong as tank armour, lasted well after all these years. So I can't renumber it or do much to the tender (however, I'll look into the coalrails/front coal plate thing but tender will still be too wide...) 2. No, the "SDJR in the 50s link" is all DC (including as it does Airfix 4Fs and split chassis 4mts etc.) There is a totally seperate blue diesel link with DCC chips but that's a totally different story). Therefore the Bachmann 3F will blissfully stay as DC. However, thanks for advice as one day, who knows, the whole layout could be DCC. The only problem I've had with the loco is related to what you've said, in that the wires from loco to tender plug are rather long and kept rubbing against the front tender wheels. Also, one of the loco pick ups got caught between the spokes of a driving wheel making odd clicking noises whjile I was running it in. All sorted now. Worrying thought: when I built the MPD kit, the SDJR had been closed for 15 years. 1981 is now 31 years ago..... Cheers and happy SDJRing Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Worrying thought: when I built the MPD kit, the SDJR had been closed for 15 years. 1981 is now 31 years ago..... Hmmm, time does seem to fly just when you wish it would slow down ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railroadbill Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Hmmm, time does seem to fly just when you wish it would slow down ! Too true! One more query about 3Fs - on the Bachmann box they make the point that some 3Fs were fitted for passenger work with vacuum brakes and steam heat which locos for unfitted freight wouldn't have needed. The Bachmann model has vacuum pipes on loco and tender buffer beams. Now, the SDJR locos must have been vacuum fitted to work passenger stock , (this shows on many photos of the front of locos) but what sort of steam heating connection was fitted to the tenders, presumably a pipe hanging below the buffer beam secured in a D shape? I can't find any photos showing the back of a 3F tender, or drawings with a steam connection fitted. Did they all have a fitting? Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 There are several photos of 3Fs running tender first in the Middleton Press Burnham to Evercreech Jn volume. One S&D Bulldog, 43194 appears with a steam heat pipe hanging below the buffer beam to the left (looking forwards) of the coupling hook. A couple of others, 43427 and 43436, both LMS imports, do not appear to have the pipe. I'll keep my eye out for other examples though I'm sure other folk will come up with examples. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazzler Fan Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) Pitty the Rails of Sheffield offer on 2/2/12 of "3205" for 59.50 pounds is no use to us. - wrong number! Edited February 3, 2012 by Dazzler Fan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 ...So, did any 3Fs have water scoop tenders on the SDJR... I think you are right, Bill. I don't recall seeing any 3F tender on the S&DJR with vents and scoops... A quick update on vents and scoops. There are a couple of photos of 43792, one of the LMS imports, at Highbridge in 1950 and 1951 in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 which show it fitted with a larger tender (3250 gallon, I think, though maybe 3500) which has the tall vents in the coal space. Whether it still has the scoop underneath is impossible to tell. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 3, 2012 Pitty the Rails of Sheffield offer on 2/2/12 of "3205" for 59.50 pounds is no use to us. - wrong number! You could always re-number it. That's the best price I've seen anywhere for one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 One more query about 3Fs - on the Bachmann box they make the point that some 3Fs were fitted for passenger work with vacuum brakes and steam heat which locos for unfitted freight wouldn't have needed. The Bachmann model has vacuum pipes on loco and tender buffer beams. Now, the SDJR locos must have been vacuum fitted to work passenger stock , (this shows on many photos of the front of locos) but what sort of steam heating connection was fitted to the tenders, presumably a pipe hanging below the buffer beam secured in a D shape? I can't find any photos showing the back of a 3F tender, or drawings with a steam connection fitted. Did they all have a fitting? The Book 'Legends of the Somerset & Dorset Railway' by Alan Hammond has a full A4 picture on page 146 showing the rear of the tender of 43682 (my recommended loco). This shows a steam pipe to the left of the coupling hook hanging down from below the buffer beam, but I wouldn't say it was in a D shape, it is curved. The vacumn pipe is mounted to the right of the coupling hook and above it, and it is in a D shape. See also, smaller (but still clear) pictures of the rear of 43682 on pages of 54 & 55 of 'The Somerset & Dorset Files No 5' by Martin Smith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Would you recommend the Alan Hammond book? I don't think I've ever had a chance to look at a copy. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well they certainly have lots of photographs of a 'different' sort, all black & white, sometimes a bit dark, and I suppose I would say some are a bit more amateurish (ie not in the Ivo Peters class), but then often I've found details in them that I just havn't seen in any of the more conventional books. I've got 4, Celebration of the ..., Heyday of the ... , Legends of the ... and Splendour of the Somerset & Dorset, but there's also Life, Heart, and Spirit, and so I'm on the lookout for them, so I suppose I would recommend them. The problem with them is that they are all limited editions, only 2500 of each, and some online book sellers quote ridiculous prices for them, though the cover price is £20. If you want to look before you buy, I always browse at exhibitions first. I've always found Kevin Robertson (books) to be very accomodating and helpfull. He does the main exhibitions in the south, and he dosn't over charge either. In fact he oftens gives me a discount now which I've never asked for, but somehow I think he must recognise me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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