Stockrington - Mojo ignited. Thanks, Heljan!

[David Todd]

       Ok, Lesson one learnt.......Do not cut,  the Cobalt operating wire.............until you are fully satisfied,it's in the correct position,fully tested.

 

I know this, I have fitted 30, so far..............

                       

Another point for your Cobalt list....is.....

                  Check the rails,if using bus,( powered), you have the correct voltage to the frog and running rail,nothing like scratching your head,when rrampmeter reading gives 22.5.v.

                  Check, un-powered, on Ohms scale, that, the Cobalt frog sw. has fully operated,full closed circuit. 1. on a digital meter

 

I would, suggest, that you fit, "tails", in every Cobalt,electrical terminal, before fixing to b/board, you may want to do,electrical interlocking,signalling...or...

may decide to  fit Richards Cobalt S-Levers........

 

It will save you cussing, back under there..(and finding,your dinner,is in the dog.....)....also,I note your points are side  operated, leave your cobalt wires in place, but do check for clearances,from the sides of your rollingstock, mine were tight...........with Shina..whats it;s.

...

 

99.99%...Nothing wrong  , with the Cobalt............normally the installer..  ..  .

[jukebox]

All good point points (ha!), dt.

 

I haven't run either DC or DCC bus yet, so have the proving to go - but my KISS/mnemonic is Red in the Middle - all my tracks have the inside rail wired with a red dropper, so all the Cobalts need the inside terminal wired with red (and so the middle in black and the outside in green).

 

You are right that "one day" I may be tempted by Cobalt-S levers, but as they said at the end of Gladiator "Not yet...   not yet".

 

Only the [shinohara] Double Slips are side operated - and then only because the mid point was very close to to turnout blades and I did not want to invite trouble, and I'd already filled in the existing rivet holes that I might have used...  but yes, I figure that if I leave all the actuating wire tails on until I am ready to run, I can do a session of "harvesting" all the tails as I go.  I replaced the tie bars with PCB on the plain turnouts, and they are drilled out in the middle, so no side issues there...

 

Nowt wrong with the Cobalts so far - just my lack of experience to start with.  My cunning plan is, double slip excepted, to get plenty of practice installing all this stuff on the storage yard tracks, where it won't be seen, so that I have a little more finesse when it comes to the scenic areas...

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[rcmacchipilot]

scott,

 

peter (I hope he doesnt mind me dobbing him in) from focus has a great method of adjusting n scale joiners to fit bulllhead track ( im guessing yours are loose). there is a good chance that the same method may work with fb track as well. Good to see stockrington progressing along.

 

The ribble head layout is progressing well, although at our usual measured pace. the guys have done a great job with base board and fascia infrastructure over the last few months so we are at a point almost where all the supporting mechanisms are in place. once thats done focus will turn to the layout. some track plans for ribblehead and ribblehead station have also been done In templot.

 

To anyone else in the perth area reading this. please come and drop in at naval base. we love visitors and a good chin wag. ( sorry to high jack your thread scott)

[jukebox]

No, no issue with the conductive joiners on either Bullhead or FB - they are a good fit over the foot of the rail - just in insulated ones, that only fit the head, and so are next to useless... the plastic is quite rigid, not the slightly elastic stuff I had expected they would be made of - and this would be why they are so recalcitrant.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited June 4, 2013 by jukebox

[Andrew P]

Hi Scott, all this talk of amp meters and frog tails etc has frightened me of those things forever, I know Jeff, (Physicsman) uses them but I think I will stick to good old Peco and Seep.

 

All the best.

 

Bodgit

[David Todd]

all this talk of amp meters and frog tails etc has frightened me of those things forever

Please don't be, its only me  ,         they are easy, follow the instructions from the box............up and running in minutes...............

[jukebox]

Andy - think of it this way: the Cobalts caress your point blades open.   Pecos and Seeps slam them akimbo.

 

Cobalts will respect your turnouts in the morning....

[Jason T]

Hate to say this, but I hope you don't get a Cobalt Clicker, a known issue with them. I have one but throwing it a couple of times seems to shut it up. They are small and handy but the poor relation to the Tortoise in my opinion.

[Jaz]

Please don't be, its only me  ,         they are easy, follow the instructions from the box............up and running in minutes...............

dt, or is it fd??????

I find you loitering here, incommunicardo,  commenting on poor Jukebox's layout......and you have a really nice layout of your own! You should as least give him the opportunity to reciprocate.

I bought some of those white metal doggies I mentioned a while ago., so you can finally expect your reward for giving me those wr/etched B.R.U.T.E. trolleys. There is an Alsatian, 2 collies, a corgi and two mutts. Throw a link to something specific if you fancy a specific colour match. You can't say fairer than that, you give me some fiddly etchings which I have to put together and tinker with, and I give you some nicely painted dogs in return. So its' a BLACK Alsation, 2 BLACK collies, a BLACK corgi, and 2 BLACK mutts. LMAO. Seriously though do you just want doppelgangers of mine?

Jukebox,

 

As he has no layout thread of his own (none that I have found on RMweb as yet) you realise your in trouble don't you    He's not coming on mine unless he presses the 'like' button regularly   Which means I will have to come wind him up here......sniggers.

Jukebox if you want me to remove this post, because it's trivial and annoying, just say mate and I'll edit it, I'll find another way of bickering with the old reprobate.

 

 

[rcmacchipilot]

at sandside.

 

check the voltage of your accessory bus with a multi meter. they dont like high voltages ( more often or not its now down to massive voltage that seems to have the biggest cause of complaints). also a center off (dpdt) switch will stop the volts going and unlike a tortise which relaxes a cobalt stays put if you kill its power.

 

and if your hand building track slow action are the only way to go. and the added bonus of not requiring an arc welder to throw them

Edited June 4, 2013 by rcmacchipilot

[Jason T]

Mine are all DCC controlled so if voltage is the issue then I would have to say they are not fit for purpose.

[rcmacchipilot]

Using cobalt accessory decoders?

[Richard Johnson]

Hate to say this, but I hope you don't get a Cobalt Clicker, a known issue with them. I have one but throwing it a couple of times seems to shut it up. They are small and handy but the poor relation to the Tortoise in my opinion.

Hello Sandside

 

You need to check your drive voltage. 99.999% of problems involving clicking come from drive voltage errors - assumptions are easy but power supplies do not always deliver what it says on the tin... I had two modellers recently who swore bling their power supply was 12v, but on measuring the result was in one 17v, (unregulated 12v supply) and the other 21.5 volts (faulty wall plug supply. Train-set controllers are the worst culprits though - the terminals marked 12v uncontrolled are always 16v or more...

 

Clicking is generally caused by too much power - the drive train is far more powerful than that in T and therefore if you over supply power, then you force teeth past each other.

 

If the cause is the 0001% it'll be a damaged tooth - probably caused by initial-over voltage but still possibly a moulding fault - in that case, like all customer issues, we would repair or replace it for you without question as we always do.

 

There are many details in which Cobalt leads T, but I am not responding for a product discussion, just to clarify your problems cause.

 

Richard

[jukebox]

Another useful week of progress on Stockrington.

 

I have managed to lay most of the two Eastern most storage tracks, and considering the won't be visible, look reasonably neat and almost straight.

 

But the real milestone was getting the first track laid over the doorway bridge.  No re-inventing the wheel here - I hunted down some proper brass screws, and used them on the edges of the joins, to attach, align, and level the rails.  Not rocket science, but I did need to go and buy a stubby #2 phillips head screwdriver, as half the joins are under the frame the bridge hinges off, so there's only 170mm of handroom - and a full height screwdriver wouldn't fit, let alone my cordless drill. 

 

Tinning the tops of the screws, my 40W soldering iron was barefuly powerful enough - it had the classic "heat sink freeze" when I first touched the screw - all the heat runs out the tip, and solder on the tip solidifies, leaving it frozen to the screw. A second or so later, the heat regenerates, the solder flows with the flux, and the screw head becomes a nice shiny silver.  But it was disconcerting - reminded me of my attempts to solder Proscale frames with a 25W iron: hopeless!

 

Anyway, the soldering worked, and the first track on the bridge is set - I couldn't resist a sneaky test to be sure I'd aligned them okay and the gap wasn't too big, so I pushed a coach across to make sure.  It was okay.

 

*cough* I may have then let it run down the 6% slope to the storage tracks, runaway style, just to see that that was all okay too... *cough*

 

My Kadee under-track uncoupling magnets will arrive next week, allowing me to compelte the storage roads, then I just have the up ramp and turnouts that service the MPD to lay, before a loop is complete.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited June 9, 2013 by jukebox

[jukebox]

Viz the discussion on Cobalts:  there are plenty of threads on most (all?) the model railway forums discussing the pros and cons of turnout motors.  Most issues with noisy Cobalts seem to revolve around over-powering them, and the advice I had from Richard was to use a 9V power supply, which I will.

 

It's been my experience that DCC Concepts products are normally "best in class" and built to a standard, not a price point (so are not always the cheapest, but IMHO are value for money).

 

Their customer service is exemplary, and I in my years of watching web discussions, have never seen them refuse to replace a faulty item, even when it's pretty clear it was user error that cause the fault.

 

When I combine all the above, with the deal-sealer that they actually my "local" model railway shop (just 30km up the road!) I'm happy to support them. Richard is someone who gives so much time to this hobby, even when there is no return for him.  I consider myself very lucky to have his advice and guidence available when (not if!) I need it.

 

I'm sure DCC Concepts UK distributors work on the same principle - and if there's a problem with a Cobalt, will work with the user to discover what is going wrong, or replace it if it is faulty.

 

I appreciate other modellers may not agree - or may have preferences for Tortises, or other slow acting turnout motor options - and that is a reflection of personal experiences and biases, just as my postion is.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[jukebox]

Some pretty grey weather here this weekend, so a bit of a diversion for me - a drive up the hills to Dwellingup, for a picnic lunch next to the Hotham Valley Railway depot there.

 

WAGR XA Class 1401

 

Hmmmm.  Stockton-on-Tees, eh?  Co-incidences abound!

 

WAGR XA with WAGR C class in the background

 

 

WAGR W Class 4-8-2 "Mountain" loco shunting in Dwellingup Yard

 

***

A couple of quick photos from this week's work.

 

Brass screws holding alignment.  This is the hinge end of the join - maximum gap around 2mm.

 

Roller Coaster

 

This is half the opening end.  The photo reveals I was a bit generous screwing down the anchors; the front dip I can live with, so long as I can match the other side of the join, however the back rail is too low - so next time I fire up the soldering iron - probably when I complete the join - I'll free that rail, and turn the screw a half turn upward to bring it level with the closer rail.

 

***

 

An observation.

 

Using a coach to test all these joins and curves, the scale of the the length of the storage tracks has stuck me - at ~5m long, they are much longer than any train I'd probably run.  So I need to have a think about how I can use that space effectively. 

 

My initial thoughts are to incorporate a ladder of turnouts half-way down on the front four tracks, that I can free locos from trains with, and so I can store smaller trains and not lock locos in. Maybe even a headshunt where a loco can sit, and propel part trains forward, and then drop back.

 

As I've always said, I plan to spend a good amount of time testing and operating once I get this first stage built, to get a feel for how I need to work the yard, and what extra track I may need.  I'll start with the two long through roads, but am pretty sure that it going to evolve once I run a few 6-8 coach trains and see how they sit.

 

***

 

And a curiosity to close the weekend off.

 

When I laid the first two yard roads, I broke open a box of Peco Code75, and plonked it down on the Depron foam.  After I'd soldered droppers, I used neat PVA glue - approx 50mm on each end, then 30mm every 100mm or so, to hold everything in place.

 

When I came back to remove the timber I'd used to weight the track onto the Depron, I could see the rails above where the glue was have tarnished.  The rails never had glue on them - I spread a <1mm thick film on the foam - but you can see in this photo the dull areas, and the shiny out-of-the-box Nickel Silver.

 

Instant weathering!

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[Physicsman]

All good point points (ha!), dt.

 

I haven't run either DC or DCC bus yet, so have the proving to go - but my KISS/mnemonic is Red in the Middle - all my tracks have the inside rail wired with a red dropper, so all the Cobalts need the inside terminal wired with red (and so the middle in black and the outside in green).

 

Nowt wrong with the Cobalts so far - just my lack of experience to start with.  My cunning plan is, double slip excepted, to get plenty of practice installing all this stuff on the storage yard tracks, where it won't be seen, so that I have a little more finesse when it comes to the scenic areas...

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

You are in the same position I was in last October. Never fitted a C or T in my life, then 40+ to go in.... It soon becomes instinctive!

 

Re. Richard's reply to Jason (Sandside). I rate the Cobalt product very highly and would never swap to anything else. However, having bought 48 Cobalt motors I've had 2 "clickers" and 2 "stickers" in that batch. The Cobalts are being run from a regulated DC output, continuously monitored via a digital multimeter - operating at 7 to 9 Volts. 2 of them still clicked. I returned 2 others to Gaugemaster as the motion would move to one end and refuse to move to the other when polarity was switched.

 

Sorry, Richard - I'm loyal to the brand, but there ARE problems out there. 

 

Jeff

Edited June 9, 2013 by Physicsman

[jukebox]

A short pre-weekend update, of events at Stockrington.

 

***

 

A couple of hours well spent this morning, glueing down the last length of the Peco Code70 on Roads 1 and 2.  I made the decision that for the up ramp, I would lay all of the gradient track with C+L as it's steel rail - so the Peco ends on the straight of the storage roads, and C+L kicks in as the track starts to both curve and rise.

 

I've also installed the first three turnouts on the up ramp.  Having learned from the issues of making a stub of track work on the down chute, I measured up and cut two 70mm C+L shorts to fit on the up ramp to space the turnouts out.  These were soldered to the toes of the respective turnouts, negating the need for extra droppers.

 

So, the 2nd, 4th and 5th turnouts are down and interconnected, and Cobalts installed and fitted.

 

Hopefully, I will get a few hours tomorrow, and can lay the two connecting lengths of C+L, so that the two storage tracks are complete and connected to the up ramp.

 

***

As I had the soldering iron out to solder the two spacer lengths, I shifted to the lift bridge, and unsoldered that errant rail from my previous post. Tellingly, it sprung up ~1mm to a neutral position the moment I liquified the solder.  I unscrewed the brass fastener below it till it was a fraction under the foor of the rail, re-fluxed, and re-liquified the solder, which ran under the rail and grabbed the rail securely. 

 

I took the opportunity to check the gauge, and actually re-soldered the other rail as well, as it looked to be a little wide.  Of course this will all be well tested once I have rails on the far side to push rolling stock through to.

 

***

Last, but definitely not least, there is a new piece of rolling stock at Stockrington:

 

CMX Clean machine

 

To paraphrase Roger Taylor - "I'm in love with my [track cleaning] car"! 

 

This is an impressive piece of kit.  I was quite surprised how small it looks in the flesh - although I'd see lots of images, I had always thought this car would be around 10" long, like a full sized tank car. But it's quite diminutive - 110mm long. But it's very, very heavy.  And when first set up, it feels like the CMX is sitting too low, and that it is bottoming out... but after I've had a play with it, I can see that is a function of the springs that are designed to force 80-90% of the unit's weight to be carried by the skid in the middle of the bogies.  The bogies do roll, and are smooth as silk, but they really are just there to guide the mass around the rails.

 

I haven't filled it up or tried to use it in anger yet (no volts in the rails just yet), but I did fit the cleaning pad, and tried pushing it around - lots of resistance. So much, that I can place the CMX on my 5-6% down chute, and it doesn't even look like it is going to roll.

 

***

 

Also today, with excellent timing, a pack of #19 and #20 Kadees I'd ordered has arrived; so my Co-Co diesels have now been fitted with an appropriate coupling at one end, ready to haul the CMX.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

P.S.  Sitting here in Perth, 8pm at night, watching a live feed of the Airbus A350 first flight in France, as I type.  I am seriously impressed with the technology available to communicate that are made available by the likes of NASA and Airbus! 

 

 

[Physicsman]

Hi Scott.

 

So - after your recommendations (seems months ago) - you've bought a CMX. Let me know how you rate it after a few uses - I'm definitely in the market for one!

 

Jeff

[jukebox]

Hi Jeff - yes, a CMX was always on the cards - too much of my track will not be reaily accessible by hand, so a propelled track cleaning device was a must.  I shall report back on it's effectiveness once I have the ability to use something to push or pull it around the track with other than my mitt.

 

***

I caught up with my travelling uncle today, who had acted as post box & courier for a few small items I wasn't able to find at the hobby stores in Manhattan - principally some bulk knife blades, a right angle attachment for my Dremel, and a dozen Kadee #308 under track magnets.

 

***

Not having the #308's in hand, I had a rethink about what track work to do first.  I was worried I'd have issues fitting the magents under secured track, so instead of joining the turnout fan to the yards, I spent yesterday bringing the up ramp track up to baseboard level. I didn't screw this down as I did the chute - the grade is less severe, and I'm a lot happier with the roadbed here, so glued this down onto the Depron the same way as I had for the storage yard tracks.

 

A couple of lessons learned in doing this.

 

1/. The droppers soldered to the steel C+L rail are not as firmly bonded as those soldered to Peco NS track. I had a length of track where I'd mis-drilled the dropper hole by a couple of millimetres, and in trying to shunt it into place to create a smooth curve, the dropper debonded.  I have been tugged on these as I solder them for the last few times, so this may have been from an early batch.  Not sure if there is any secret to soldering onto steel rail - other than not to over stress the join.

 

2/. The other observation is that the steel rail also shows a reaction to the PVA I have used in Stage 1. The fumes from the PVA must be the source - but whether it is just localised moisture evaporating, or an acidic reaction, I am not sure.  But there's clearly a film of oxidation on the rail above each area PVA'd.  It does look like weathering, so I'm not pulling my hair out - the rail sides have to be painted anyway - but it does bother me from a "what the hell is happening" perspective.  And I also need to find out if the film, when cleaned off the running surface, will reappear.   I am serously contemplating a swtich to a latex based glue for the remainder of my tracklaying, just in case.

 

NB - I had had both brands of track sitting open on the benchwork for weeks now, and none have shown any signs of tarnishing - so the room environment is fine.  These are areas within 10mm of where PVA has been appiled to the Depron to secure the flex.

 

I did forget to mention last post, that the reason I wanted steel rails on the up ramp, is that they will provide a little more friction for grip than Nickel Silver. Just how much more - or if it is indeed enough - we shall find out in a few short weeks.  I looked at the track today, and realised that I could jerry-rig the track and get a test train up in a week or so. But I'd rather take a little longer, wire it all in, and be able to test in a circuit, rather than having to stop and back a train down each time I increase the loading.

 

Anyway... once I had the up ramp laid and glued, I though it would be good to drill the roadbed for the droppers for the top three turnouts.  And place them to check I'd got it right.  That resulted in a vision of the future - the entry to Northmoor MPD, the trailing turnout where the up ramp joins the mainline, and the trailing turnout to the coaling stage:

 

 

Which compares well to the SCARM cartoon of the same area:

 

 

At the bottom of the up ramp, I have two lengths of C+L to install - I have these ready to go with droppers soldered on - they just need to be cut to length once I get the track magnets in.

 

 

Speaking of which, here's the cut outs for the first two magnets - I was finally able to check this evening, and they are tickety-boo.  So I just need to glue a floor to these holes, and then the magnets will slide into place.

 

(That Peco Code 70 looks pretty agricultural next to the C+L....)

 

So, by my own reckoning, I'm on schedule.  Next week's plans are to sort out the magnet holes, close up the storage track gaps, and install the final three turnouts.  Now I have the Dremel angle attachment, I can cut off the screws that are poking out under the brudge and tearing my hand - which will in turn mean I can lay the second track across the bridge, to the back of the double slip.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

Edited June 16, 2013 by jukebox

[jukebox]

A little Monday evening extra running on Stockrington this week...

 

Having waited with baited breath for those Kadee magnets, I slipped upstairs and installed them tonight; 5 mins to glue and wedge a floor to the cut out holes, 5 mins to cut a couple of plugs to shim the magnets, then slide them in.  They may need to be shimmed a millimetre or so more up to touch the sleeper bases - I'll test them once the track gap is closed - but I won't glue them down , as I don't see the need to.  They should work just fine as is.

 

 

Great to be at a point where I now have some little 15 mins jobs on Stockrington that I can do after work during the week, that don't require power tools or a 2 hour commitment once I start!

 

***

 

Oh, and speaking of glue...

 

I did a Google search, and apparently PVA can react with metals to cause oxidation.    

 

Exhibit 1/.

 

Exhibit 2/.

 

The guilty party:

 

I actually have been able to shift the patina off the steel rails using Methylated Spirits, so that's a positive - but the Nickel Silver, although less aggressively oxidised, is more resistant to removal. Right now, I have no idea how it affects conductivity - the steel oxide was quite three dimensional - a powdery grain that turned into suspension on contact with the Meths.  The darkening on the NS stains the cloth a yellow shade - but the rail head does not return to its pre-contaminated shine.

 

I am going to try gluing a few short test lengths of each directly onto wood, to see if the problem is a reaction with the Depron foam underlay.  I have some EVA foam samples coming in the mail, so will need to try these too. 

 

Whilst the appeal of pre-weathered rail is tempting, the thought of continuous track cleaning (or worse, accelerated long term decay to the parent metal) means this is a problem I do not want to leave unsolved.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

[Jaz]

Those were some nice reference photos Jukebox.

 

I have messed up Kals running on several occasions (need a yikes emote) when colouring, I find if I am weathering I have a roll of toilet paper nearby, I colour the rail, and wipe the top, this reduces the problem significantly to colour interfering with the loco getting power.

 

Best of luck with the issue. 

[Kal]

Hi

 

Don't use methylated spirits, it is full of adaptives to Stop people drinking it! Those additives can be anything, and may leave residues dependent on what they spiked it with.

 

For electrical de ox , use IPA, it is the best, as it evaporates quickly and leaves no toxic residues. For electrical contacts it is the choice of champions.

 

The ox you are seeing is due most probably to the water in the pva. Any water based product will do the same. However once dry , any ox you remove will not return to steel unless it becomes wet again.

[jukebox]

Hi Kal;

 

The oxidation is apparently from the acid fumes that the PVA leaches.  I am not sure how long that process goes on for, nor if it is related to the Depron.

 

Controlled testing will take place shortly.

 

My preferred solvent de jour is Lacquer Thinners, but I didn't have any to hand in the room when I was trying to clean the rails - and it was too cold to trudge out to the shed and decant some.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[Enterprisingwestern]

Evil stuff is PVA. Try this;

 

http://www.netweber.co.uk/tile-fixing-products/weber-products/products/prep-preparation-products/weber-pr360.html

 

Mike.