level crossing on railway property

[ColHut]

Where a railway-owned station approach or access road crosses a siding , (as it might), what were the protection requirements? Were the gates normally shut against the railway and operated by the shunter?

I am assuming the public obviously use the road to access station facilities. perhaps they have to herd cattle or sheep to a cattle dock or collect goods from the station. Were there just warning signs put up?

I am assuming late 1930 GWR.

 

regards

[The Stationmaster]

I'm trying desperately to think of one where there was gates - and offhand I can't although equally I can't think of anywhere where a sidings had to be crossed (other than by a footpath) to reach a passenger station.  Plenty of instances of footpaths crossing running lines, sometimes at stations, and they did have pedestrian gates and warning notices but that was it - the gates were not locked.

[chaz]

IIRC the line that used to link Hertford East with Hertford North had no gates that would close across the roadway, indeed they would have had to be immense as the area of tarmac crossed was large. I assume that any rail movement (and it would only be a shunt move) would be protected by a bloke with a red flag.

Numerous railway connections in Birkenhead which involved the shared use of rolling lift bridges were also protected by blokes with flags. I have seen pictures of 9Fs trundling along and across roads, although (unfortunately) by the time I lived for a year in the area steam had gone.

 

Chaz

[bécasse]

Such an arrangement must have been extremely rare. Like The Stationmaster, I couldn't immediately bring an example to mind. However, just as vehicle access to a goods yard was gated, so would this extended siding would have been, possibly using the same gate, and for the same reason, to keep trespassers off the railway system. The other end of station approach crossing would have been gated too. These gates would only have been the equivalent of 5-bar gates used for occupation crossings and the like - and, when opened for passage of rail vehicles, would not have provided protection between rail and road traffic in the way that level crossing gates did.

[Martin Shaw]

I can only think of one location, Highbridge, Somerset, where the access to the GWR goods yard was via a level crossing across the S&D Burnham line. This was a proper gated level crossing controlled by a signalbox, Highbridge East B in BR days, so might not be what the OP had in mind. As others have commented, extremely rare.

 

Regards

Martin

[Compound2632]

Another non-GWR example is Earley, on the main (i.e. SER) line into Reading, where there was a level crossing at the west end of the station giving access to the goods yard on the north side of the line, the far side to the station approach from the Wokingham Road. I think I've seen a photo of this gated - it was adjacent to the signal box; if not gated there would be no fence preventing access to the running lines. I think this crossing remained in occasional railway use until the up platform was extended some 15 years ago; there's still evidence of it - gates in the boundary fence and gaps in the conductor rail.

[Fat Controller]

The former Midland station at Montpelier (Avonmouth branch) had a line which trailed from the coast-bound line towards a coal yard across the station approach.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Fat Controller

[CHAZ D]

Another non-GWR example is Earley, on the main (i.e. SER) line into Reading, where there was a level crossing at the west end of the station giving access to the goods yard on the north

side of the line, the far side to the station approach from the Wokingham Road. I think I've seen a photo of this gated - it was adjacent to the signal box; if not gated there would be no fence preventing access to the running lines. I think this crossing remained in occasional railway use until the up platform was extended some 15 years ago; there's still evidence of it - gates in the boundary fence and gaps in the conductor rail.[/quote

Another non-GWR example is Earley, on the main (i.e. SER) line into Reading, where there was a level crossing at the west end of the station giving access to the goods yard on the north side of the line, the far side to the station approach from the Wokingham Road. I think I've seen a photo of this gated - it was adjacent to the signal box; if not gated there would be no fence preventing access to the running lines. I think this crossing remained in occasional railway use until the up platform was extended some 15 years ago; there's still evidence of it - gates in the boundary fence and gaps in the conductor rail.

Earley gated up until the building of the A329M I lived nearby across the line on what was Pond Head lane which had a hardly used level crossing

[Compound2632]

Earley gated up until the building of the A329M I lived nearby across the line on what was Pond Head lane which had a hardly used level crossing

 

It's not quite evident from the 25" maps (National Library of Scotland) whether there was access from Station Road to the lane on the Woodley side of the line although the modern footbridge over the railway and A329(M) presumably preserves an older right-of-way. So on reflection the level crossing might not have been exclusively for goods yard access, providing at least pedestrian access from Woodley as well as a means of crossing between the platforms - no footbridge at least to 1932. 

 

The OP question was about level crossings over sidings rather than running lines so apologies for being OT - though in defence, Earley did have a siding that crossed the straight line between Station Road and the lane from the Woodley side...

[Nearholmer]

A couple of examples that spring to mind:

 

- Wadhurst SER/SR/BR, where things seemed to be back-to-front, with the goods yard outside the front door of the station, largely un-fenced, and a coal siding between the 'main' highway and the station building, which was crossed by vehicles and pedestrians; I don't think there were ever any gates. It is a bit hard to make out on the map-snap below, but one end of the entry to the station forecourt was right by the goods shed. This photo shows what I'm talking about fairly clearlyhttp://theweald.org/m13.asp?PicIdto=9900560 and this one shows the other end of the forecourt http://theweald.org/m13.asp?PicIdto=9902512 ; and,

 

- Neasden (and probably other) Underground depot, where the main approach road, which is on railway property, crosses a quite busy depot track. That is now protected by a level crossing that would do credit to a public road (both road and railway are busier than at many level crossings of highways), but I'm fairly sure had much less thoroughgoing provisions as recently as twenty years ago.

 

Kevin

Edited March 6, 2017 by Nearholmer

[phil_sutters]

I can only think of one location, Highbridge, Somerset, where the access to the GWR goods yard was via a level crossing across the S&D Burnham line. This was a proper gated level crossing controlled by a signalbox, Highbridge East B in BR days, so might not be what the OP had in mind. As others have commented, extremely rare.

 

Regards

Martin

I was just thinking the same and had dug out one of Dad's photo's to show it. Sid (or was it Stan) Oram, the signalman, was one of Dad's congregation and allowed me to pull the levers on a couple of occasions. I remember him waving the tea-towel he used on the levers to give drivers hand-signals out of the box window.

 

 

I have been puzzled by the gates at the end of Burnham's excursion platform. Unless they were relics of a fuller set, I can only assume that they could be shut across the line to stop pedestrian access into the station, although they don't seem wide enough, and there don't seem to have been any corresponding ones across the other line.

Edited March 7, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Fat Controller]

I was just thinking the same and had dug out one of Dad's photo's to show it.

B&H02 2-6-2T 82001 approaching Highbridge Summer 1961.jpg

 

 

 

Flat crossings like this weren't that uncommon. In the Llanelli area there were at least seven:-

The original Llanelly Railway route to Pontarddulais crossed the mainline at Llandilo Junction.

The Dafen branch of the Llanelly Railway crossed the mainline about a mile east of Llanelli station.

The Nevill's Dock and Railway lines crossed the mainline at two places: just west of Llanelli station and at Old Castle.

The BP&GV Sandy branch crossed the ND&R line at Sandy Junction

The other end of the Sandy branch crossed the main line about 1/2 mile east of Pembrey and Burry Port station, whilst another branch of the BP&GVR crossed the mainline immediately east of the same station.

Several of these lines remained in use into the late 1960s.

[Pacific231G]

Hi Col

This is perhaps a slightly different situation from the one you describe but there's an example of a level crossing on railway land that crosses the eastern chord of the ex GWR Greenford branch to reach the PW site (now Plasser I think) that sits within the trangle formed by the GW main line and the two chords at the southern end of the Greenford Branch.

This was/is not a public crossing and at one time it was controlled by just a white light (light off means don't cross) but now has a full set of flashing red lights and sounds but is still not gated or barriered. I presume the change was because in BR days only railway PW staff would have use the crossing but now, though it's within a gated enclosure, various contractors also have to use it (I don't know whether everyone using it would have to be certified to work railside or whether users would include delivery drivers). Passenger trains cross it at very low speed and that may have some bearing on it not needong to be barrier controlled.

[Gordon A]

Exter St Davids, there was a road at the London end of the station that crossed the main line (gated) then carried on through the goods yard to Exwick which was not gated or controlled.

In more recent times they cut a number of sidings in half so the lines do not cross the road.

 

Gordon A

[Happy Hippo]

LLandenny on the Monmouth to Usk line might have been such a station.

 

The road crossed the line on the level close to the platform end. The  goods loop and main being protected by gates.

 

however, the sidings behind the platform, which were accessed off the main, appeared to run across the road with no gated protection, apart form the gate protecting the main and loop.

 

Anyone approaching from Llandenny village had to cross the siding prior to getting to the platform ramp..

[ColHut]

Thanks all very much. What a fount of knowledge RMWeb is!

 

I have a situation at one point where the company siding becomes a private siding on the edge of railway property and where the railway access road is.

 

Considering all of the above I have decided to put the road 'outside' the fence so to speak and have the crossing gated and normally closed across the siding, and be the dividing line between the private siding and the railway siding. This way:

 

- the private siding is normally closed off as it should be when not in use

- the public are protected from straying into railway property or getting squished by trains

- the shunter can operate the farm-type gates as required due to the infrequent use.

 

But I did like the idea of a man with a red flag.

 

regards

Edited March 7, 2017 by ColHut

[RailWest]

Exter St Davids, there was a road at the London end of the station that crossed the main line (gated) then carried on through the goods yard to Exwick which was not gated or controlled.

In more recent times they cut a number of sidings in half so the lines do not cross the road.

 

Gordon A

Not strictly true historically. The road-crossing of the Goods Lines was controlled by the adjacent Exeter Goods Yard signal-box, whilst the crossing over the various sidings was controlled by a guard or shunter as/when the siding was being shunted.

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Col

This is perhaps a slightly different situation from the one you describe but there's an example of a level crossing on railway land that crosses the eastern chord of the ex GWR Greenford branch to reach the PW site (now Plasser I think) that sits within the trangle formed by the GW main line and the two chords at the southern end of the Greenford Branch.

This was/is not a public crossing and at one time it was controlled by just a white light (light off means don't cross) but now has a full set of flashing red lights and sounds but is still not gated or barriered. I presume the change was because in BR days only railway PW staff would have use the crossing but now, though it's within a gated enclosure, various contractors also have to use it (I don't know whether everyone using it would have to be certified to work railside or whether users would include delivery drivers). Passenger trains cross it at very low speed and that may have some bearing on it not needong to be barrier controlled.

 

What is now called Plasser Crossing used not to have any sort of lights at all back in the days when i accessed only the PerWay and S&T Depots at West Ealing - in fact it wasn't even listed as a level crossing despite the fact that it crossed running lines!

[phil_sutters]

Flat crossings like this weren't that uncommon. In the Llanelli area there were at least seven:-

The original Llanelly Railway route to Pontarddulais crossed the mainline at Llandilo Junction.

The Dafen branch of the Llanelly Railway crossed the mainline about a mile east of Llanelli station.

The Nevill's Dock and Railway lines crossed the mainline at two places: just west of Llanelli station and at Old Castle.

The BP&GV Sandy branch crossed the ND&R line at Sandy Junction

The other end of the Sandy branch crossed the main line about 1/2 mile east of Pembrey and Burry Port station, whilst another branch of the BP&GVR crossed the mainline immediately east of the same station.

Several of these lines remained in use into the late 1960s.

You seem to be referring to railway lines crossing each other. The Highbridge crossing shown was a road crossing the SDJR line in order to get to the GWR goods yard. The Highbridge flat crossing, where the Somerset Central crossed the Bristol & Exeter, was a hundred yards further, in the direction the train was heading.

Edited March 7, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Pacific231G]

There used to be a set of crossing gates at the south end of Oxford statiion adjoining the road underbridge and used occasionally for overheight vehicles or when the road under the bridge flooded. I never saw them used and wondered whether these were operated by the signalbox or subject to special arrangements as they were opened so rarely. I'm not even sure that they went across the four tracks or opened outwards. So far as I know they were entirely on railway land and not part of the public highway.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Fat Controller]

You seem to be referring to railway lines crossing each other. The Highbridge crossing shown was a road crossing the SDJR line in order to get to the GWR goods yard. The Highbridge flat crossing, where the Somerset Central crossed the Bristol & Exeter, was a hundred yards further, in the direction the train was heading.

You're correct, sir; I had confounded the two. I'd not noticed the level crossing gate in that photo. One of the examples I quoted did have an odd arrangement of gates, though. One of the two examples at Burry Port, that further away from the station, had a set of gates protecting the main line to Fishguard. The BP&GV Sandy branch, however, crossed the road approach to the crossing at a diagonal, before crossing the main line on the level . at an oblique angle. If there had been gates protecting the branch, they were manually operated.

[Junctionmad]

Elsewhere , in Ireland , at the infamous Limerick Junction , you had the peculiar situation where the station access road crossed an access line to no 4 platform.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Junctionmad

[Southernman46]

The access road to Strawberry Hill depot crosses the Teddington - Fulwell line at the southern end of the depot via a level crossing. It is to my knowledge just a set of barriers that are lifted (I am a bit out of date now) by anyone driving into the depot. The crossing is entirely on railway property through and cannot be used by the public.

 

There you go - info / photo added ...............

 

http://abcrailwayguide.uk/shacklegate-junction-private-level-crossing-richmond-upon-thames#.WMNPeo1XV-E

Edited March 11, 2017 by Southernman46

[ColHut]

Does anyone know at what line speed it was thought permissable to dispense with distant signals for a gated manned crossing on a public crossing? Thinking back to the 1930s. Trains will be running hourly on the single line branch at guess, if that.

 

My 1928 BOT says:

 

Fixed railway signals will not be required when, having regard to the traffic, gradients, &c., a sufficiently good view of the discs or lamps is obtainable by enginemen of approaching trains to enable them to stop short of the gates when they are across the railway. When, however, the view obtainable by enginemen is insufficient for this purpose, and it is considered necessary to give additional protection beyond that furnished by the gate discs or lamps, a fixed signal of the Distant signal type to be provided. The Distant signal may be either of the one-position unworkable type, when it is desired to give warning only of the proximity of the level crossing, or of the two-position worked type when information in respect of the actual

etc.

regards

Edited March 22, 2017 by ColHut

[ColHut]

Just by way of reference, I note that the number of old surviving 'occupation type' crossings on public roads where single gates controlled access and did not open across the railway was higher than I thought. According to an accident report on Harpham public by-road level crossing in November 1936, there were still 61 unlocked crossings, and 44 crossings locked only at night, and all (105) were of the 'OccupationType' in the NE region of the LNER alone. The reports are available here:

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Harpham1936.pdf

 

 

Food for thought.