Pete the Elaner Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I can't solder or drill all the way through the baseboard, so more that one wire presents a significant challenge. You have me worried now. I seem to recall you mentioning earlier that you have sheets of MDF. If you can't solder or drill all the way through the baseboard, then this suggests you don't have a support frame. Without support, MDF will expand & warp & a kitchen provides lots of moisture to make this happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2017 With only two wires and electrofrog points, all you can really do is have a single track setup with a fan of sidings either side of the feed point. For the fiddle yard that's OK, but for the terminus it's very limiting - no run-round loops (immediate short) or kick-back sidings (no power). You can have a loop if you use insulfrog points. You cannot set up Minories or anything like it with two wires. And all this applies equally to DC and DCC. Sorry to be so negative, but that's how it is. This website is probably the standard reference for getting started, especially good with all things electrical. http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/. Try giving it a read. It's easier for us to help if you can ask more specific questions. Cheers Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 More specific questions are better. Having an informative website is very useful (& Brian's one is excellent) but small pieces of information are much easier to learn & understand than a huge information overload. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2017 I have, in the interests of simplicity, reliability, and ease of construction, deliberately kept my layout as electrically simple as possible, a very basic BLT with one feed and all wiring on the surface and contained within the fiddle yards section. I have had to, in addition to the feed, had to run two wires to kickback sidings from 'outside rail to outside rail' so that current is fed to them by the insulfrog points being set for those sidings. All my points are insulfrog, and the current goes where the road is set. The layout is DC, not DCC, but even if DCC were in use I would still have to wire the kickbacks in the way I have to provided current to them. As I understand it, and I am certainly out of my depth here, DCC requires that traction current is supplied to all the layout all the time and the locos decide through on-board electronics whether to use it or not, so there is no need to wire isolating sections and switches, but you still have to wire the entire layout. In the case of Minories, that means separate feeds for the up and down mains and the kickbacks, whatever system you are using. You will not be able to run the layout with one feed. Moreover, my layout is dependent on current being routed by setting the insulfrog points; I would not be able to do this with live frog pointwork which would required separate switching; this is saved by DCC as well. Your baseboards need to be flat and rigid, and solidly bolted together, as anything other than flat and smoothly laid trackwork will disrupt running and cause stalls and derailments. You need to be able to drill through them and their bracing in order to achieve this. Wiring can be connected by means other than soldering; I test ran mine with it simply crimped to the ends of the rails using rail joiners, but backed that up with solder when it came to permanently fixing it. Connections other than to the track can be with block connectors, which need solidly fixing to something (usually the underside of the baseboard) or you will, however careful you are, pull them apart sooner or later, and allowance has to be made for dismantling and re-assembly if (when) you have to move to a new flat. If basic drilling and fixing of this sort is outside your comfort zone, I'd suggest an entry level night school course in simple DIY before you start the layout. I may well in the future find that switching current by means of route setting through insulfrog points is unreliable, as it relies on a somewhat dodgy electrical connection through the point blades, and am prepared to install extra backup wiring in this event, but that is because the layout is specifically designed to accommodate all wiring on the top surface of the baseboards in the hidden sidings area; this cannot be done on Minories. I may, over time, acquire a proper control panel with switches and isolated sections, but for now am carrying on with current switched through points. I am unable, for example, to isolate a locomotive at the 'town end' buffers and attach another one to the other end of the train, which would be necessary with Minories; my operation simply does not require this move at any time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 All the boards are 18mm un-braced MDF, on Argos 50cmx90cm tables. I can drill through the boards, but if I change the track plan, then there's a mammoth hole in the board. I am, as said earlier, warming to the idea of a branch. Interesting ones are tolerable. Sorry for the back and forth questions and answers, but please keep it coming. Specific questions are not quite easy to compile- my mind is fairly open to different styles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 So sorry about the pestering! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) DCC requires that traction current is supplied to all the layout all the time and the locos decide through on-board electronics whether to use it or not, so there is no need to wire isolating sections and switches, but you still have to wire the entire layout. If you want to be able to leave locos sitting still with lights on or with idling sounds running then yes, you will need to supply power to all parts of the layout at all times. Someone did say this was an 'unusual requirement' on a DCC-related thread recently, which I found quite surprising. There is no need to ensure any sidings are unpowered with DCC. As for the boards, unbraced MDF will warp & I suspect it will determine the life of your layout - you will probably be building a new layout because they have become so warped that they are unusable. MDF is quite bad for absorbing moisture & warping as a result. Supports also give you a nice way of holding the boards together. Don't be put off by this though. The cost of boards is just 1 expenditure compared to the time & cost of buying/fitting track, scenery & electrics. I had an MDF layout once. It lived in the loft & had either 2" or 3" softwood bracing. Even when screwed to this, it managed to curl up. I straightened it by adding extra bracing underneath which made it more bulky & heavy than I wanted as well as covering up much of the wiring. Edited September 11, 2017 by Pete the Elaner Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 So sorry about the pestering! Stop apologising! Sharing information is what this forum is for. Think of it as a virtual clubroom. Most of us learned from friends and/or clubs. I know I did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 All the boards are 18mm un-braced MDF, on Argos 50cmx90cm tables. I can drill through the boards, but if I change the track plan, then there's a mammoth hole in the board. I am, as said earlier, warming to the idea of a branch. Interesting ones are tolerable. Sorry for the back and forth questions and answers, but please keep it coming. Specific questions are not quite easy to compile- my mind is fairly open to different styles. Your MDF sounds about 3 times too thick (and heavy!) and, as the guys are saying (because MDF will only retain dimensional stability for a time) over time you will regret not bracing. Use a braced top and, if you are prepared to go back a step, buy thinner MDF, or 6mm or 9mm ply (my preferred material) for the top. Check out any articles to do with first principles on baseboards. If the woodwork is a worry, order a laser-cut set of boards to suit your needs. The baseboard is the absolute foundation upon which all your visible work will be based. Believe me, I've seen big, heavy O gauge locos derailed on a poorly braced baseboard. Good luck aac Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 The 18mm MDF is nice and strong and only cost about £75, so I'm happy to replace them in 5 years. I've not braced because it makes them much heavier and more difficult to move around. Of course, if essential, I can brace it though. I fix them to the table using 2" clamps. I am once again sorry to bother everyone, but please can you offer track advice or layout advice? I bought the boards last year and have no choice. I will note this for my next layout, though. Once more, I am really sorry for having troubled you so much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 Sorry about the pestering, and thank you for your time- please keep it coming! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 The 18mm MDF is nice and strong and only cost about £75, so I'm happy to replace them in 5 years. Hmm...I'd suggest that replacing baseboards basically means dismantling everything you've built on them in that time and starting again from scratch. And as Pete the Elaner said, MDF in a moist atmosphere is bad news. If you want proof, try putting a drop or two of water on one of the sawn edges of your nice and strong baseboards and see what happens. You can mitigate the risk of deterioration a bit by sealing the MDF with suitable paint or varnish, but it's by no means a guaranteed solution. I can show you the bottom of the painted MDF door to the hot water cylinder cupboard in our bathroom if you'd like proof. Fortunately it doesn't matter much if that swells and warps a bit, but for a model railway that would be baaad news. (The real-life equivalent isn't great news for real railways, either, come to that...) On top of all that, there is the risk of the boards sagging ie suffering creep over time (Google will show up a fair few references for MDF's propensity for this). Bracing can help but the bottom line is that unbraced MDF is significantly less stable over time for horizontal load-bearing surfaces than, for example, classic braced birch ply. I'm also pretty sure that even unbraced 18mm MDF is a noticeably heavier than 9mm birch ply with 2"x1" bracing at 1ft intervals. And that's before you take into account the additional benefits of bracing in providing room under the baseboard to run wiring, and nice perpendicular edges to help with joining baseboards squarely and securely together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 Is there a way to keep the boards suitable for one-man handling but also more robust? P.S. ideally a solution using minimal time and effort. I know this sounds boring now, but thanks for helping, sorry for bothering, and please keep it coming! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 11, 2017 Author Share Posted September 11, 2017 Sorry for repeated pestering, but please keep them coming! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2017 Is there a way to keep the boards suitable for one-man handling but also more robust? P.S. ideally a solution using minimal time and effort. I know this sounds boring now, but thanks for helping, sorry for bothering, and please keep it coming! Sorry for repeated pestering, but please keep them coming! You really don't need to ask for more help every 20 minutes, you know - those of us that are trying to help see there's a new post, so go and look ..... and there's nothing new at all. That said ...... I don't believe a 6' x 2' board can be one-man handled in the first place, once there's anything on it. Lift one end first - does it flex at all? If it does, off will come the track. And it certainly can't be made more robust without being made heavier. Anyway, are you intending to move it once it's in place? If you are, you are going to have to sort out how to realign the boards after moving them - which comes back to framing again, because a frame makes it possible to bolt the boards together. I suspect you might be getting the feeling by now that the RMWeb consensus is that those 18mm MDF sheets might be better used making a wardrobe - sorry! By the way, what did you mean when you asked for "track advice" a few posts ago? Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) The 18mm MDF is nice and strong and only cost about £75, so I'm happy to replace them in 5 years. I've not braced because it makes them much heavier and more difficult to move around. Of course, if essential, I can brace it though. I fix them to the table using 2" clamps. I am once again sorry to bother everyone, but please can you offer track advice or layout advice? I bought the boards last year and have no choice. I will note this for my next layout, though. Once more, I am really sorry for having troubled you so much. 9 mm Ply and 3 x 1 inch Baton for bracing is stronger, lighter for moving and would have been cheaper. PDF is rubbish for baseboards, it's heavy, it warps, and it swells even without to much moisture. Scrap it, buy some nice 9 mm Ply and 3 x 1 Baton, and then start to ask about Track Planning Ed. Edited September 11, 2017 by Andrew P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2017 9 mm Ply and 3 x 1 inch Baton for bracing is stronger, lighter for moving and would have been cheaper. PDF is rubbish for baseboards, it's heavy, it warps, and it swells even without to much moisture. Scrap it, buy some nice 9 mm Ply and 3 x 1 Baton, and then start to ask about Track Planning Ed. To make it lighter still use ply on edge 3 inches deep or 75mm in new money. Use 18mm square timber to reinforce the corners. Inner stiffners can have 35 / 40 mm holes in to carry the wiring, all this will also allow you to fit point motors underneath without fear of damage. Unless you have a good stable base you will run into problems in a very short space of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 To make it lighter still use ply on edge 3 inches deep or 75mm in new money. Use 18mm square timber to reinforce the corners. Inner stiffners can have 35 / 40 mm holes in to carry the wiring, all this will also allow you to fit point motors underneath without fear of damage. Unless you have a good stable base you will run into problems in a very short space of time. Yes your spot on, that's what I've done on Kings Moreton and most of my previous Layouts, it also guarantees a flat top every time, I was just trying to make things simpler for Ed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aac Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Sorry for repeated pestering, but please keep them coming! Show us a photo of where you are up to. How much track and infrastructure is already in place? Nobody is saying change for Change's sake: you will benefit by having braced boards with ply tops. And if you don't know already, please be VERY careful cutting any MDF. The inhaled dust is very bad for the lungs. aac Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2017 'Replacing the boards every 5 years' isn't a flyer, mate; it means the absolute destruction of your railway every 5 years, and rebuilding it from scratch. Buildings might be salvable, but your trackwork, scenery, and wiring won't be. They're right; don't stint on baseboards even if you bodge them like I have and make them 5 times as heavy as they need to be. Your baseboards need to be solid, rigid, stiff, and capable of retaining those qualities in the environment you keep them in, and to be honest, your don't cut the mustard in their present form. You need to be able to, once you built them, cover them in scenery and trackwork and make holes in them for wiring (not bloody great ones, by the way, they only need to be big enough for 2 wires to go through) while more or less forgetting about them because they are going to last forever without any attention. This is achievable and the minimum standard you will need. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Ok, so no more MDF, but what do I use the MDF for, then? The apologies are mainly because I want to thank everyone for their time and apologise for wasting it. Secondly, a lot of threads just 'die down' with inactivity, so I'm trying to keep it afloat. The track design question I have is about the track layout, requiring some suggestions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejstubbs Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) Ok, so no more MDF, but what do I use the MDF for, then? Sell it on Gumtree. Someone nearby will almost certainly have a use for it. It's too heavy and bulky to ship anywhere. (You could try eBay as well, making it clear that the buyer will have to collect, but make sure that you insist on cash on collection - no PayPal, it's notorious for being used to scam sellers when the buyer collects in person.) Edited September 12, 2017 by ejstubbs Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 You mention the flat being a two-bed holiday home. I don't suppose there's any chance of the layout being able to go in one of the other rooms instead, to avoid the damp problems associated with having the layout in the kitchen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chimer Posted September 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 12, 2017 Layout design. There are 133 pages of layout threads in this section of RMWeb, 25 threads per page. Most of them have a track plan somewhere in the first few pages, or a photo showing an overall view. Then in the "Layout and Track Design" section of the "Skills and Knowledge Centre" there are 62 more pages of threads, most of which start with someone's original idea (or lack of idea) of a plan and are followed by everybody else's ideas on how to improve it - most of which will be contradictory. So that's about 5000 ideas for you to look at, at least 500 of which will fit into your available space. Rural, urban, busy, sleepy, modern, ancient, goods yard, loco depot, station, harbour, with or without any scenery, with or without any points (?), even Discworld iirc - all railway life is there. Until you have a clearer idea of what you might like to do, asking us to produce #5001 is a bit - umm - pointless. Have you got any track yet? If you have, it might be worth just sticking some of it at random on one of your 6' x 2's and playing trains for a bit. Tell us what you've got, and someone might even draw you a plan that uses it, maybe for a shunting puzzle to find out if you like shunting trucks about. It seems to be my fate to play bad cop on this thread....... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Winterbury Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Yes, there is a possibility of relocating to a 12'x8' room which the layout was built to fit. Thanks for your help, sorry for the pestering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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