Is this the best time ever for RTR models?

[bike2steam]

In some cases we are or have, Bachmann Birdcages to go with their C and N (as well as Hornby's H plus their T9 and M7, both of which worked on the Eastern Section at times), Hornby LSW rebuilds to go with their Radials / M7 /T9 / Black Motor (and the Bachmann N, Kernow O2 and 0298). Hornby have also done a sufficient selection of Maunsells to allow the formation of proper trains from 1 to 8 coaches, though some dining cars are needed to extend that to full expresses. Also, the Kernow Models "Gate Sets" are imminent.  

 

The LMS and GWR have both had a reasonable set of new releases of main line stock in recent times, plus non-corridor types for the LMS and a BR (W) Autocoach..

 

Whilst coverage of LNER coaching stock has been mainly limited to secondary stock of late, there are always the new Bachmann Thompsons, Hornby Pullmans and, B.R Mk.1s  for Eastern Region fans. Just a pity that the existing range of r-t-r Gresley corridors is both limited and compromised in shape. 

 

There are still plenty of gaps to fill but, all in all, I think we modellers and especially, (I never thought I'd get to say this) we Southern modellers, have been provided with a greater variety of r-t-r stock to give our locos their raison d'etre in recent years than ever before.

 

Never had it so good? Probably, and certainly a lot better than I would have dreamed even twenty years ago.

 

John

Well said. Perhaps the problem with the LNER coaching stock is that the manufacturers are uncertain about demand, and need reassuring. Yep, never had it so good - yet some still complain. Small batches, a consequence of a bigger choice to try and keep down overheads, yes batch sizes could be increases, but the choice would have to be more limited, perhaps some people don't realize what's entailed to manufacture these things, we could have 100% quality control inspection, but it would probably double the cost - ah well!

[Legend]

Quality is not an optional extra especially with locos costing £150 and heading to £200. And with the need to preorder the opposite end of the bargain is that the goods have to be fit for purpose, so if any defects there have to be replacements available. I note DJM had a reserve on his 71s he is now selling off , just in case of defects. I’d expect others to do the same. Not here is your money back, tough we are all sold out!

 

So is it the best time? For details and running qualities , if you get a good one, yes. For QC, customer service , and the ability to buy a model when you require it, absolutely not. While there maybe a bigger range of models available Its only good if in fact they are available.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Legend

[Chris M]

For QC, customer service , and the ability to buy a model when you require it, absolutely not. While there maybe a bigger range of models available Its only good if in fact they are available.

Another great thing about rtr today is eBay. If a model is no longer available in the shops just save a search on eBay and you will get a choice of items. The price might not be to your liking but eBay does provide a great service in improving availability.

[Dunsignalling]

Quality is not an optional extra especially with locos costing £150 and heading to £200. And with the need to preorder the opposite end of the bargain is that the goods have to be fit for purpose, so if any defects there have to be replacements available. I note DJM had a reserve on his 71s he is now selling off , just in case of defects. I’d expect others to do the same. Not here is your money back, tough we are all sold out!

 

So is it the best time? For details and running qualities , if you get a good one, yes. For QC, customer service , and the ability to buy a model when you require it, absolutely not. While there maybe a bigger range of models available Its only good if in fact they are available.

The availability issue is a direct result of off-shoring production to factories that don't just service our hobby and has been a fact of life long enough for us to plan our purchasing around it. 

 

We all know what's what, even if we don't like it and, if a model really matters, pre-ordering is, for me at least, now normal. Those who refuse to do so, in some misbegotten hope that if one ignores reality, reality will change (it might, but almost never in the way one desires), must take their chances.

 

If I want something badly enough to shell out the not-inconsiderable sums of money that are involved today, I also want it badly enough to organise things so I don't miss out..

 

John

[Londontram]

Whats all this about limited runs of a model. In the old days you would push your nose up against the toy shop window and see the Triang princess and dream of the day that you could either afford it or father Christmas brought it for you, and if you didn't get it one year it would still be in the shops the next.

 

Now if you don't pre order it and pay for it there and now you'll miss it. I'm sorry as a disabled person who has had to take an early retirement life sometimes gets in the way and we might need to get the car repaired this month or the washing machine might need replacing and when you've sorted that out and turn back to the model they've all gone often months ahead of the release date.

 

Why not build enough to meet demand I cant remember rushing down to the local appliance shop to get a Hoover before they all went or going online and pre ordering my shopping from Tesco because they were only making a limited run of milk.

 

It just feels like one is under so much pressure these days

[Legend]

The availability issue is a direct result of off-shoring production to factories that don't just service our hobby and has been a fact of life long enough for us to plan our purchasing around it.

 

We all know what's what, even if we don't like it and, if a model really matters, pre-ordering is, for me at least, now normal. Those who refuse to do so, in some misbegotten hope that if one ignores reality, reality will change (it might, but almost never in the way one desires), must take their chances.

 

If I want something badly enough to shell out the not-inconsiderable sums of money that are involved today, I also want it badly enough to organise things so I don't miss out..

 

John

If you go over to the H class thread you will see on there someone who pre ordered , got a duff model and there are no more to replace it with as it is out of stock at the manufacturers . That was my main point . It’s ok pre ordering as long as you can have certainty the loco is in good condition when it arrives. If not you are stuffed! That’s unacceptable.

 

As to organising your purchasing to do pre orders, yes that’s ok assuming you know what you want in advance. Suppose someone new to the hobby wants to model ScotRail . Where are the turbostars etc. Yes you can look up EBay and see the outrageous prices being quoted. What will happen......he’ll just not bother completely deterred by cost and lack of availability.

 

Maybe I should buy a Dapol streamlined railcar now. I don’t Model GWR at the moment , but you never know in the future. I really should get more organised

 

So as I said yes it’s best ever for detail but certainly not availability or consistent quality.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Legend

[Dunsignalling]

Whats all this about limited runs of a model. In the old days you would push your nose up against the toy shop window and see the Triang princess and dream of the day that you could either afford it or father Christmas brought it for you, and if you didn't get it one year it would still be in the shops the next.

 

Now if you don't pre order it and pay for it there and now you'll miss it. I'm sorry as a disabled person who has had to take an early retirement life sometimes gets in the way and we might need to get the car repaired this month or the washing machine might need replacing and when you've sorted that out and turn back to the model they've all gone often months ahead of the release date.

 

Why not build enough to meet demand I cant remember rushing down to the local appliance shop to get a Hoover before they all went or going online and pre ordering my shopping from Tesco because they were only making a limited run of milk.

 

It just feels like one is under so much pressure these days

Unfortunately, pressure of one sort or another, is universal nowadays. In the world-wide scheme of things Model Railways are a niche interest and UK-outline trains even more so.  

 

Models are therefore made in limited numbers because limited numbers are what they sell in. That's the price we pay for the variety we are nowadays offered. Back when we could buy Tri-ang Princesses on demand, Tri-ang didn't make all that many other locos, let alone multiple versions in different liveries! 

 

These days, almost everything in industry is geared to just-in-time delivery at every level and the auditors will tell you the exact cost down to decimal points of a penny, of any delay. As a result, the manufacturers and retailers both know exactly how long stuff can hang around before it becomes a liability.

 

I am fortunate, in that I have been able, through (at least in part) not doing/having other things that some regard as essential, to build up and maintain a contingency fund that (so far) has been sufficient to cover things like car repairs and appliance replacement, as well as allowing me to buy most of the model trains I like and all of the ones that I like a lot.

 

John

Edited October 30, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

If you go over to the H class thread you will see on there someone who pre ordered , got a duff model and there are no more to replace it with as it is out of stock at the manufacturers . That was my main point . It’s ok pre ordering as long as you can have certainty the loco os in good condition when it arrives. If not you are stuffed! That’s unacceptable.

 

As to organising your purchasing to do pre orders, yes that’s ok assuming you know what you want in advance. Suppose someone new to the hobby wants to model ScotRail . Where are the turbostars etc. Yes you can look up EBay and see the outrageous prices being quoted. What will happen......he’ll just not bother completely deterred by cost and lack of availability.

 

Maybe I should buy a Dapol streamlined railcar now. I don’t Model GWR at the moment , but you never know in the future. I really should get more organised

 

So as I said yes it’s best ever for detail but certainly not availability or consistent quality.

The only fool-proof answer to that, is not to buy anything you can't see working before you buy it and accept the possibility that you might not get one at all.

 

Maybe I've been lucky but I'm about to repair the first and only modern loco (out of around a hundred I've bought this century) that has, thus far, died on me - a Hornby 'Weymouth' in need of a new motor, which I can obtain. I've also had to replace one Bulleid front bogie lost to Mazak rot, on a different model.

 

For those whose interests change, and who want models that are no longer made; used examples are much easier to find nowadays, using the web. Asking prices are just what the vendors think people will pay, if they don't sell, they'll go down. If they don't, that's the going rate, like it or not.

 

If the industry still operated in the way it did in the rose-tinted days of the fifties and sixties, and if such a specialised model ever got made at all, it would only have been available in one livery at time, so nobody's any worse off.

 

NO different than if I had decided, back in the day, that I wanted a Tri-ang L1 in BR livery at a time when they were only making Southern Railway ones, except I'd have had to do the finding by trawling through small ads, phoning round dealers or expending good, old fashioned shoe leather.

 

 

John

Edited October 30, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Perhaps the problem with the LNER coaching stock is that the manufacturers are uncertain about demand, and need reassuring...

Catalogue and assess the pre-orders before committing to production?

 

...For QC, customer service , and the ability to buy a model when you require it, absolutely not. While there maybe a bigger range of models available Its only good if in fact they are available.

 I'll bet I am not the only one who never managed to buy a very much desired Trix OO A2 when they were in production. Getting hold of a Wrenn 8F took a lot of time too. It wasn't just availability in the shop but immediate solvency, no credit card or bank account as a teenager, it needed the cash in the wallet at the point of sale or you couldn't have it. No credit, no laying by, cash on the nail at HA Blunt... And those were just the two I remember best, there were others. (Oh, and the 8F was a dud, noisy motor with no go. Tried 'everything' to no avail, but was at least able to sell it on for better then purchase price thanks to runaway inflation.)

[Mike Storey]

The minority scales wouldn't change the overall picture. And rather one genuinely good material / kit / technique, than a choice of a dozen all with significant failings..

 

Maybe, if that happens to be the kit, or the bits, that you need!

[Barry O]

With advent of brass/nickel silver etching then 3D printing will this be the route to get a new item of rolling stock where RTR doesn't supply one? Could we make it easier to get people to build stock to go with the latest RTF offerings?

 

Baz

[Killian keane]

While I think the current vast array of prototypes offered by the RTR manufacturers is without doubt the finest seen up until now in terms of both variety and quality, I do have to agree with others here in that it seems to detract from the simple joys and satisfaction of building ones own locos, bear in mind though that virtually all of the current RTR offerings are representing locos that survived past nationalisation (the only examples of which this is not true are the stirling single and Bachmann city class off the top of my head) so pre nationalisation and more so pre grouping modellers should have something to model independently, that said, I am convinced the flatiron, for one, would be much higher up on the manufacturers lists than a lot of classes that did make it to br days

[Barry O]

Doing a bit of Research for the 1967 "Shop" at Warley and I have looked at price comparisons - a couple of examples

 

Locomotive

1967 Price

RRP 2017

Sir Winston Churchill

81 Shillings and 11 Pence (£4.14)

£179.99

Class 7P6F Locomotive - Britannia

87 Shillings and 2 Pence (£4.36)

£179.99

 

Both locos in 1967 fitted with smoke. 

 

£1 in 1967 would now be worth £17.10. So without the added detail etc seen in models in 2017 the Bulleid Pacific would now cost £70.80 and the Britannia £74.56

 

But is the added quality and accuracy worth it?

 

Baz

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I would suggest that to those who want models it definitely is. There is a near contemporary of those two pacifics still in production, and fortuitously there is a 'current standard' model available for comparison as well.

 

Try the pricing comparison on the old 350hp diesel shunter (R152?) against the current R3490 Railroad item. Same one piece body moulding stretched to fit on the 'one size fits all' standard mechanism; and then compare to the current accurate models such as R3484.

[Fenman]

... But is the added quality and accuracy worth it?

 

To me: absolutely, yes.

 

And if you don't want quality and accuracy, you can buy Railroad or second hand, can't you?

 

Paul

[Mike Storey]

Doing a bit of Research for the 1967 "Shop" at Warley and I have looked at price comparisons - a couple of examples

 

Locomotive

1967 Price

RRP 2017

Sir Winston Churchill

81 Shillings and 11 Pence (£4.14)

£179.99

Class 7P6F Locomotive - Britannia

87 Shillings and 2 Pence (£4.36)

£179.99

 

Both locos in 1967 fitted with smoke. 

 

£1 in 1967 would now be worth £17.10. So without the added detail etc seen in models in 2017 the Bulleid Pacific would now cost £70.80 and the Britannia £74.56

 

But is the added quality and accuracy worth it?

 

Baz

 

Interesting, but perhaps it would be just as illuminating to compare like with like, over the period, and use Railroad standard locos.

 

Whilst I cannot find a direct comparison with those locos, it is relevant that, for 4-6-2's :

 

R3371 Mallard - RRP £109.99, Hatton's price £74.06

 

R3806 Flying Scotsman - RRP £109.99 , but going for £55 at Hattons

 

R3060 Tornado - RRP £109.99, but going for £68 at Hattons.

 

You can argue that the RRP is the true guide if you like, but such discounts are now common and were not available in 1967, not to today's extent. So, like for like, or as near as we can get, the real price to the buyer has not really changed that much, especially as these will all have the more modern motors. You could almost say they were now cheaper, but that would probably be stretching it a bit.

 

Your question stands then as to whether the substantial extra one must pay, even when discounted, for the non-Railroad, modern motors, superior finish (usually), extra detailing and built-in provision for extra functionality, if then equipped with DCC, is worth it.

 

The issue is that we now have a choice between the very basic or the more advanced versions, but only if the loco you want is available in the basic version, it is true. It is also true that the difference between RR and full monty specs have been blurred, and that greater differentiation is needed. But then the range of locos available in 1967 was far less than these days, so the point is perhaps moot? So you makes your choice and pays your price these days? In 1967, basically you just paid your price, because there wasn't so much choice.

[Dunsignalling]

Interesting, but perhaps it would be just as illuminating to compare like with like, over the period, and use Railroad standard locos.

 

Whilst I cannot find a direct comparison with those locos, it is relevant that, for 4-6-2's :

 

R3371 Mallard - RRP £109.99, Hatton's price £74.06

 

R3806 Flying Scotsman - RRP £109.99 , but going for £55 at Hattons

 

R3060 Tornado - RRP £109.99, but going for £68 at Hattons.

 

You can argue that the RRP is the true guide if you like, but such discounts are now common and were not available in 1967, not to today's extent. So, like for like, or as near as we can get, the real price to the buyer has not really changed that much, especially as these will all have the more modern motors. You could almost say they were now cheaper, but that would probably be stretching it a bit.

 

Your question stands then as to whether the substantial extra one must pay, even when discounted, for the non-Railroad, modern motors, superior finish (usually), extra detailing and built-in provision for extra functionality, if then equipped with DCC, is worth it.

 

The issue is that we now have a choice between the very basic or the more advanced versions, but only if the loco you want is available in the basic version, it is true. It is also true that the difference between RR and full monty specs have been blurred, and that greater differentiation is needed. But then the range of locos available in 1967 was far less than these days, so the point is perhaps moot? So you makes your choice and pays your price these days? In 1967, basically you just paid your price, because there wasn't so much choice.

I think the range-blurring has been rather overstated and the only glaring examples have been the Crosti 9F which probably shouldn't have been placed in the Railroad range and the revamped 4F and 2P that definitely should have.  

 

Relatively few locos have featured in both ranges once the Design Clever Duke of Gloucester, Tornado and Cock 'o the North are taken out of the equation.

 

The only ones that spring readily to mind are the A4, A3, B17 and Schools where the superseded main-range models received loco drive and re-emerged as Railroad.

 

I'd venture that the three heavily-discounted examples quoted are most likely so priced because pretty much everybody who wants them already has them.

 

John

Edited November 11, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[bike2steam]

 But then the range of locos available in 1967 was far less than these days, so the point is perhaps moot? So you makes your choice and pays your price these days? In 1967, basically you just paid your price, because there wasn't so much choice.

That's it exactly, I wonder what the prices would be if the limit of choice was the same as in 1967, it's just 'spread a bit too thin' these days.

[Mike Storey]

I think the range-blurring has been rather overstated and the only glaring examples have been the Crosti 9F which probably shouldn't have been placed in the Railroad range and the revamped 4F and 2P that definitely should have.  

 

Relatively few locos have featured in both ranges once the Design Clever Duke of Gloucester, Tornado and Cock 'o the North are taken out of the equation.

 

The only ones that spring readily to mind are the A4, A3, B17 and Schools where the superseded main-range models received loco drive and re-emerged as Railroad.

 

I'd venture that the three heavily-discounted examples quoted are most likely so priced because pretty much everybody who wants them already has them.

 

John

 

That is entirely possible, but then they are the only new Hornby RR 4-6-2's I could find that are currently available!

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I know I'll get howled down, but I liked 'Design Clever' it allowed me to buy new loco's that I wanted to at a reasonable price, both 'Tornado' and 'Cock o' the North' are very good runners, I've run 15 coaches behind Tornado and 25 behind COTN (actually I ran out of coaches) why do I need to pay a lot of money, for separate handrails, brakes (that don't work) and don't pull as much as 'Design Clever' loco's.

 

manna

[coachmann]

Is this the best time ever for RTR models?

 

Without a shadow of a doubt. Chassis run so smoothly today that we forget about the 20-to-1 gear set and 3-pole open frame motors  that sent locos off at a flying start.  We used to routinely replace worm and gear with 30-to-1 and even 40-to1 Romford gearsets when using these chassis under kitbuilt bodies in order to get some sort of slow running.

 

As for moaning having increased, well of course it has. Everyone moans these days because they can due to social media, forums and TV feedback.  Armchair modellers have never had it so good either!

 

If I had retired 30 years ago, I would be building loco and wagon kits (I still build coaches). Today, not only can I access better RTR locos than kits for same, they are considerably cheaper. And detail doesn't stop at the superstructure. I wonder if anyone really looks at the chassis? Not only are they just as well detailed as the bodies with ashpan detail and accurate brakes and brake rodding, the design is very clever to make locos ride along smoothly with no waggle.  This applied particularly to 2-4-2T's, 4-4-0 locos and 0-4-4T's.  And now 0 gauge is going inexpensive but highly detailed RTR.

 

But why am I telling you this when you all have eyes.  

[neilkirby]

Some very interesting points of view in this thread. The gist of which reflects the whole modern world. Most things seem to be better out of the box, but are not built to last. This ranges from a central heating boilers, for example the one I have just replaced was old when I moved in 20 years ago and in that time has just needed the thermocouple changing a couple of times,  the newer more efficient replacement will probably only last 10 years and will be a right off when it goes. I only replaced the old one due to building work, the engineer said it was 'bombproof and would probably have lasted for ever, bar the the odd thermocouple , which could be regarded as a consumable, similar to X04 carbon brushes!  My mum had the same iron for the whole of my childhood, we now seem to get through one every 18 months.  I believe basically manufacturers don't want anything to last, or be repairable, as then you will not be buying the very slightly 'better' replacements in a couple of years time. From boilers and cars,  through clothes Irons and  phones, right down to a £1 pair of socks, all designed to last just long enough until they want you to buy the replacement.

 

As an aside, when I worked at Bec Models in the late 70's - Early 80's we had an automated 'O' gauge train that ran up and down the length of the window the entire time the shop was open. I cannot remember what locos we used, but I do remember the garish Lima open wagons,  One day  we noticed that the loco was struggling, further investigation proved it was fine when not coupled to the two wagons,  looking at these we were surprised to find that the bearing holes for the axles had steadily worn in to vertical slots and the drag was being caused by the wheel flanges making contact with the floor of the wagons! I think my uncle worked out the actual mileage they might have done by working out speed, distance and the shop opening times. Too long ago now to remember the answer

 

Neil

[Northmoor]

I believe basically manufacturers don't want anything to last, or be repairable, as then you will not be buying the very slightly 'better' replacements in a couple of years time. From boilers and cars,  through clothes Irons and  phones, right down to a £1 pair of socks, all designed to last just long enough until they want you to buy the replacement.

 

I can't comment on the longevity of models as I've never run mine for long enough, but the "they don't make them like they used to" isn't a myth.  They generally make them better - much better.

 

Your Mum's iron lasted 20 years because she probably had to mentally save for six months to pay for it.  If you bought a £200 iron now it would probably last for 20 years as well.

 

As for cars, thank God they don't make them like they used to.  I drive two 15-year old cars, both with roughly 120,000 miles on the clock.  One has lived a reasonably hard life but still only has a few small rust bubbles, gets through MOTs for less than £100 every year.  The other has barely a mark on the body, only the driver's seat shows any sign of wear (it was a family car before I owned it).  Neither use any oil and one only consumed water/coolant because of a small gasket leak.

 

I grew up in the 1980s/90s with cars which were worn out by 100,000 miles and required things like gearboxes to be rebuilt most years.  Remember the design life of the original Ford Escort was 1000hrs@70mph (one of my Uni lecturers was on the design team); 12 year old cars would frequently fail MOTs on corrosion; nowadays I'd be complaining to the manufacturer if there was ANY rust on it at 10 years old. 

 

Do I love old cars - absolutely.  Would I want to rely on one for every day transport?  No chance.

 

However..... I think in some ways the skills of the design and manufacturing engineers have backfired; by designing products to be "maintenance-free", everyone now just operates everything without thought until it breaks. If you don't believe me, look at the number of cars which haven't reached their first MOTs which are driving around with lights out, illegal tyres etc.  Or the Whirlpool tumble dryer fire scandal.  I know it's appalling to have your house catch fire but I do wonder if any of the victims ever cleared fluff out of the hoses or the air filter?  Up to the 1970s we all knew we had to maintain and repair stuff and did, so it lasted longer (and we couldn't afford to replace it).  If we'd ignored maintenance it would have failed just the same as it does now and probably quicker.  

[neilkirby]

In hind site, that's a fair point about the cars, My dad bought a brand new Fiat in the 60's and found  it was already going rusty in the engine compartment, to be fair they did swap it for another new one. Also I won't necessarily argue about the iron being right or wrong way to doing things, although with all the emphasis being green nowadays does seem to be at odds with the modern throw away model of business. Will stick to my guns about modern boilers though, The efficiency may well save you a £100 a year, you are going to need it to help pay for your next one!

 

Neil

[Northmoor]

Will stick to my guns about modern boilers though, The efficiency may well save you a £100 a year, you are going to need it to help pay for your next one!

 

I agree about boilers too, we replaced our when we re-fitted our kitchen.  The boiler was at least 20 years ago and worked fine (if less efficiently than the new one, but the system flush also helped) but was unsupportable, if we'd needed spares it could have taken months.  We would have had to take out the new kitchen to replace the whole boiler at a later date.  And as we all know, heating systems only ever fail in February.