Is this the best time ever for RTR models?

[Chris M]

From what Ive read the real Flatirons weren't ready to run.

 

It makes an interesting loco to model though.

[The Johnster]

There was a time when the Wills Flatiron was very popular, as it was considered an easy first foray into whitemetal kit building and could very effectively hide the mechanism; the Jinty chassis was a long way from being the worst runner of it's day, bombproof reliable, and one could fit Romford wheels and gears.  Almost every LMS layout in Model Railway Constructor seemed to have one, usually at the head of a rake of Ratio Midland suburbans, badly, indifferently, or well lined out snaking out of a bay past an Airfix Oakham signal box, and quite a few other types of layout squeezed one in as well for the above reason; you cut your teeth on a Flatiron and then you were ready for more Wills or even (sharp intake of breath because you had to build a chassis) K's.

 

I reckon they were much more popular and widespread in model form than they ever were in real life!

[Barry O]

My next kit build was a NuCast Q6.....

[Dunsignalling]

A wills flatiron.. original Triang Jinty chassis, wills bogie and Jackson wheels...

 

Wills Flatiron.JPG

 

will this be an RTR model one day?

 

I would have said no but some of the RTR items appearing in the last ten years does make me wonder.

 

Baz

I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

 

However, the manufacturers (understandably) tend to go for prototypes that lasted long enough to carry BR livery, that nowadays being the most popular modelling period. That option generates the "base load" demand that recoups the tooling costs reasonably quickly.

 

I don't imagine for one moment that we would have seen the Adams Radial, and probably not the Dean Goods had either, like the Flatirons, become extinct prior to WW2.

 

It is also interesting to ponder why Wills chose to cover the Flatiron (within the limits set by the chosen mechanism) in the first place. At the time, the 1930s were the prime modelling era so  B.R survival was not the factor it has since become.  My guess is that it was about as "different" as anything based on a Tri-ang Jinty chassis could get.

 

John

[The Johnster]

If we ever see an RTR one, it might be in Z or even T where the ability to hide the mechanism will be a driver to the choice of prototype.  There are few 'smaller' steam locos on which this can be so easily achieved!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

There was a time when the Wills Flatiron was very popular, as it was considered an easy first foray into whitemetal kit building and could very effectively hide the mechanism; the Jinty chassis was a long way from being the worst runner of it's day, bombproof reliable, and one could fit Romford wheels and gears. ...you cut your teeth on a Flatiron and then you were ready for more Wills or even (sharp intake of breath because you had to build a chassis) K's.

 By about 1970, as I recollect it there must have been past a dozen whitemetal kits from Bec, GEM, K's and Wills designed to accept either the Triang or Wrenn small wheeled six coupled mechanisms. These were what I cut my teeth on, Bec J17,  K's J50, Wills N7, and very satisfied I was too! It was the only way to 'everyday' black engines.

[Mark Saunders]

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of enlightment, it was the age of foolishness."

 

and

 

"Let us be frank about it: most of our people have never had it so good".

 

.....now discuss!

 

With apologies to the late Mr Dickens & Macmillan 

[locomad]

G'day Gents

 

Still running a Dublo N2, and have  at least six Dublo/Wrenn 0-6-0's running, some of them are getting quite old now, but still give the new stuff a run for there money.

 

manna

Probably they will out last all the new stuff, I'am coming to the conclusion that the modern stuff especially if you run it continuously on a layout will quickly wear out.

 

Take your dublo N2, somewhere in the original instructions it will mention you need to oil it after 25 hours of running, when you do it will probably run better, with some modern stuff you will be luckily to get 25 hours of running.

 

Yes it is a "good time" for rtr models if you are an armchair collector or display them in a glass cabinet, even use them on an end to end layout, but I found they don't represent good value for money if you like watching them go round and round a continuous layout.

[The Johnster]

The rot set in with Mainline's split chassis, not that the problem was intentional!.  My oldest loco is an Airfix large prairie, build in the Silurian Era by trilobites, designed on very traditional lines with a cast metal chassis block, open frame motor, brass worm and cog drive that was not dissimilar as a concept to a Rovex Black Princess.  It runs very well, if noisily, and so long as I can supply it with carbon brushes I expect it to easily outlast me!

[locomad]

The rot set in with Mainline's split chassis, not that the problem was intentional!.  

Quite agree I purchased one about 1978, by 1980 it was in the scrap bins, although I did attempt to repair it.

 

Over the decade's I've discovered quite a few manufacturer or specific problems like the airfix 0-4-2 with spring pick ups, dreadful, then the peco foam rot problem, nightmare, and the Lima mazak chassis rot.

 

I even considered moving to "N" guage fortunately a model railway club member warned us about Graham farish nylon worm drives splitting, that alone put us off.

 

What is different now is with the internet modellers are quick to tell everyone a specific problem, I believe the model railway press years ago were reluctant to mention problems as it would affect advertising, course once a manufacturer went bust problems were mentioned in the letter pages.

[Anglian]

Probably they will out last all the new stuff, I'am coming to the conclusion that the modern stuff especially if you run it continuously on a layout will quickly wear out.

 

Take your dublo N2, somewhere in the original instructions it will mention you need to oil it after 25 hours of running, when you do it will probably run better, with some modern stuff you will be luckily to get 25 hours of running.

 

Yes it is a "good time" for rtr models if you are an armchair collector or display them in a glass cabinet, even use them on an end to end layout, but I found they don't represent good value for money if you like watching them go round and round a continuous layout.

 

 

The ones I'm buying and storing are bought primarily to get the body shells. I can't build and paint them to the same quality and were I to pay somebody who can it would cost an awful lot more than the £80 – £100 I'm paying. So to me they represent a way of ultimately building the layout I've wanted to create for about 35 years and without them that goal would be impossible for me.

 

Since I've just bought another one a few moments ago, right now it is the golden age.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Anglian

[Chris M]

My experience is different to those mentioned above.

 

I remember having an N2 but I can't remember it working well. The electric motors seemed to have problems with the armatures failing. They used to get bits if carbon stuck in the commutator. And when they were taken apart they needed remagnetising. I also recall having to replace the odd X04 motor as well. At least you could get spares in those days. Now you may not be able get spares for quite recent locos, I guess that's because they are batch built in China.

 

Both me and my friend had our Airfix prairie stop working due to motor failure and neither were high mileage.

 

I always found the Lima locos were slightly crude runners but I don't recall any failures. Some of the Hornby 1970's pancake motors suffered from being noisy but I don't recall any dying. The early Mainline motors had issues but the later ones seemed better. I dropped out of OO and all model railways for a while in the 1990s so can't comment past then. I got back into small models in 2013 with N gauge. It's early days but so far so good. I am very impressed with the smooth running of most of them.

 

There is certainly more to go wrong on modern locos and, because they have more very fine detail, they are easier to damage.

 

I get the feeling that the drive trains of modern locos are better designed and as durable as the old ones but they are harder to fix mainly because spares aren't always available. We won't know for certain for another 50 years or so.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I remember having an N2 but I can't remember it working well. The electric motors seemed to have problems with the armatures failing. They used to get bits if carbon stuck in the commutator. And when they were taken apart they needed remagnetising. I also recall having to replace the odd X04 motor as well...Both me and my friend had our Airfix prairie stop working due to motor failure and neither were high mileage.

 

I always found the Lima locos were slightly crude runners but I don't recall any failures. Some of the Hornby 1970's pancake motors suffered from being noisy but I don't recall any dying...

 

.I get the feeling that the drive trains of modern locos are better designed and as durable as the old ones but they are harder to fix mainly because spares aren't always available. We won't know for certain for another 50 years or so.

 The various brands of European made OO were typically of pretty poor precision in manufacture = cheaply made. Slack tolerances, which led to rapid wear build up on most. Once in a while you got a good one where by chance the bearings were a good fit as received: I have an XO4 which was superb as received and is still fifty years on a good motor. The much vaunted H-D and Wrenn, no better, actually typically worse yet. Lkewise an Airfix open frame open frame motor (the MW005 derived design) which I had a precision machinist balance and fit with closely toleranced bearings which transformed it. Basically sound motor designs, but poorly manufactured. (When using RTR chassis to make mechanisms for whitemetal kits I swapped out the maker's motor for the Romford Bulldog, which was manufactured to a much higher standard.)

 

This firm commitment to a poor manufacturing standard was very clearly on view when Triang-Hornby adopted the Fleischmann ringfield motor for their tender/bogie drive. The initial releases had the Fleischmann motor design manufactured correctly, and these were good, quiet and reliable motors. T-H subsequently spent the next twenty-some years in the death spiral competition with Lima to see which could foist the most cheaply manufactured motor on the OO customer, and do I need to explain just how poor they were? .

 

The present steel axle wiper pick up OO mechanisms adopt proven techniques long standard in HO, where poor drives have not been tolerated in what qualify as 'models for adults' since the 1950s. These will last mechanically - given appropriate care -  as well as the HO does. But you cannot run it on the carpet, drop it on the floor, forget to lubricate it regularly, or do other such dozy things with it. That's what the poor quality old OO is for. Pays your money, makes your choice.

[Londontram]

Brilliant thread and I've much enjoyed reading it. This is such a hard question to answer as the range and detail of today's ready to run far surpasses anything we've ever had before but one must question its long term durability but in today's throw away market does that even matter any more?

 

Despite whats available there are times when I still hanker after something simple like an old Wren 8F on a rake of coal wagons. No way could it ever be a match for today's detailed offerings but what an old soldier it was slogging on for ever pulling what ever you hooked on behind it.

 

I think its that sometimes I miss the innocence of the old days possibly sadly robbed from us by modern technology.

 

                                                                                               Steve

Edited October 27, 2017 by Londontram

[ikks]

Quite agree I purchased one about 1978, by 1980 it was in the scrap bins, although I did attempt to repair it.

 

Over the decade's I've discovered quite a few manufacturer or specific problems like the airfix 0-4-2 with spring pick ups, dreadful, then the peco foam rot problem, nightmare, and the Lima mazak chassis rot.

 

I even considered moving to "N" guage fortunately a model railway club member warned us about Graham farish nylon worm drives splitting, that alone put us off.

 

What is different now is with the internet modellers are quick to tell everyone a specific problem, I believe the model railway press years ago were reluctant to mention problems as it would affect advertising, course once a manufacturer went bust problems were mentioned in the letter pages.

Interesting, back in 60's my Hornby Dublo Duchess would only  after a time would only crawl around my layout and eventually died albeit producing some spectacular smoke effects whilst stationary! I didn't do anything about it for ages until my dad said............we paid  5 pounds for this, let's send it back to Hornby which we did, A couple of weeks later it came back with a brand new chassis, nickel silver plated wheels (I think)......no charge, just an apology for the inconvenience caused...........spectacular service

 

Mike

[Steamport Southport]

A wills flatiron.. original Triang Jinty chassis, wills bogie and Jackson wheels...

 

Wills Flatiron.JPG

 

will this be an RTR model one day?

 

I would have said no but some of the RTR items appearing in the last ten years does make me wonder.

 

Baz

 

I bloomin' well hope not! 

 

Another kit I've got in my pile that those RTR people must be spying on.

 

Mine's got an etched chassis and is apparently "revised". Although I can't remember what was different about it.

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I bloomin' well hope not! ... (Flatiron)

 We can all breathe easily for now, as Bachmann's third non-0-6-0T LMS constituent tank engine choice of a MR 0-4-4T was a very sensible one. I would expect examples from the LTSR 4-4-2T and Caley 0-4-4T class grouos to get a look in well ahead of a Flatiron. Both once very well regarded, but their star does seem to have set...

[Barry O]

Question.. if we can get RTR locomotives should we also be getting correct stock to go with it?

 

In the past we would have fond kits/scratchbuild...but now?

 

Baz

[Andy Hayter]

I would say yes we should get matching stock, even though I am happy to build or scratchbuild missing items of stock.  Pre-grouping era probably shows the problem to the greatest extent.

 

If you take the Bachmann C class as a best in class example, it was followed by an announcement of birdcage coaches, which indeed they did haul.  But the C class was initially predominately a freight loco and where are the wagons?  Hard to find outside of kits, which are quite rare to match the SECR full-fat livery or indeed the simplified livery.  When it comes to a brake van then you are forced to a it of a Dancehall Van introduced in the death of the SECR and not pre-WW1.  And that is a best example.

 

GCR J11 (Collectors club - maybe the first word is a clue) - nothing (sorry not quite true Collectors club "GCR" wagon set - one GCR, one CLC and one LNER!)

GCR O2 (NRM)- nothing

GNR atlantic (NRM) - nothing

LBSCR E4 - nothing 

Soon to arrive Hornby H Class SECR - Bachman's birdcage stock when it arrives

MR 4F - well I suppose we do have a Bachman Brake van, but everything else is kits - and the MR is probably one of the best  served pre-grouping companies for kits.

 

 

 

 

The argument will be perhaps that many of these models are not of pre-grouping locos but rather preserved locos in pre-grouping livery.

 

It is not however restricted to this early era or the UK.  I still have a Jouef H0 Eurostar 4 car set and 20+years later still await the announcement let alone delivery of any intermediate cars.

[298]

It is not however restricted to this early era or the UK. I still have a Jouef H0 Eurostar 4 car set and 20+years later still await the announcement let alone delivery of any intermediate cars.

I've told the local Model Shop Proprietor that I'll have a Hornby APT once the extra coaches were available.

Edited October 28, 2017 by 298

[locomad]

Brilliant thread and I've much enjoyed reading it. This is such a hard question to answer as the range and detail of today's ready to run far surpasses anything we've ever had before but one must question its long term durability but in today's throw away market does that even matter any more?

 

Despite whats available there are times when I still hanker after something simple like an old Wren 8F on a rake of coal wagons. No way could it ever be a match for today's detailed offerings but what an old soldier it was slogging on for ever pulling what ever you hooked on behind it.

 

I think its that sometimes I miss the innocence of the old days possibly sadly robbed from us by modern technology.

 

                                                                                               Steve

 

Totally agree, I've a fair number of modern locos they look brilliant far better than anything I could hope to make myself, some are very good performers, they are free running, don't stick on points.

 

However I have to treat them with "kid gloves", they require very carefully handling, they are just so fragile, getting back in a box is a nightmare, you are going to break something. Added to that a simple derailment which can easily happen, failed points, uncoupled stock, simple derailment can easily break something. I wish simple things could be fitted like wire handrails ( easy to bend back) instead of plastic.

 

But your right about the wrenn 8F pulling a load of coal wagons, something magic or nostalgic about it, perhaps the metal finish, or the heavy way it sits on a track, or the way it moves about, it even has a smell when warm, it looks somehow more real despite the oversize hand rail.

 

I've an ex 3 rail Hornby dublo, 1/2 inch motor, 60 years old, wired up the American way, live pick up on tender, plastic tie bar, never had a remag ,pulls 30 Hornby-dublo Dicast non pin-up point axle wagons, probably done over 200 hours running in its life time, somehow I don't thing anything I've purchased recently is going to be running in 50 years time. I hope some modern stuff lasts my lifetime however based on recent failures and lack of repairability I don't hold out much hope.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Question.. if we can get RTR locomotives should we also be getting correct stock to go with it?

 

In the past we would have fond kits/scratchbuild...but now?...

 There is simply too much stock variety to hope for everything. If we don't have a plastic moulded RTR set of LNER streamlined stock to match the A4 pacifics sold in huge numbers every year, little hope for general availability of 'correct stock' in RTR production.

 

But on the positive side, the resources to support DIY are better than ever. Better kits, better materials, better tools, better techniques, better drawings, better kit components: 3D  printed, kit built, scratchbuilding supported by suitable components, take your pick.

[Mike Storey]

 There is simply too much stock variety to hope for everything. If we don't have a plastic moulded RTR set of LNER streamlined stock to match the A4 pacifics sold in huge numbers every year, little hope for general availability of 'correct stock' in RTR production.

 

But on the positive side, the resources to support DIY are better than ever. Better kits, better materials, better tools, better techniques, better drawings, better kit components: 3D  printed, kit built, scratchbuilding supported by suitable components, take your pick.

 

But is your second para entirely true, and if so, in what scale? In 00, I think we have less choice across all aspects of kits, detailing parts and scratchbuilder aids than compared to, say, the 1970's/80's, despite the advent of 3D suppliers, although I agree the quality has improved amongst those that remain. I remember the days of walking into W&H, Hamblings, Kings Cross Models or the shop in Leyton whose name I can never remember, and being able to get just about anything I needed, for kits, detailing etc. I was never much of a scratchbuilder, but I was a big kit builder.

 

In N gauge, I would presume that the situation is much better than it was then, when I remember having had little choice. In 16mm/ft scale, my other following, kit suppliers have come and gone, but the range is still pretty good, and has expanded recently, despite the advent of RTR rolling stock from the likes of Accucraft. On O gauge, I don't know enough to comment.

 

Is it just that the internet has made finding the things we want or need much easier, or is it that there is actually a lot more out there?

[Dunsignalling]

Question.. if we can get RTR locomotives should we also be getting correct stock to go with it?

 

In the past we would have fond kits/scratchbuild...but now?

 

Baz

In some cases we are or have, Bachmann Birdcages to go with their C and N (as well as Hornby's H plus their T9 and M7, both of which worked on the Eastern Section at times), Hornby LSW rebuilds to go with their Radials / M7 /T9 / Black Motor (and the Bachmann N, Kernow O2 and 0298). Hornby have also done a sufficient selection of Maunsells to allow the formation of proper trains from 1 to 8 coaches, though some dining cars are needed to extend that to full expresses. Also, the Kernow Models "Gate Sets" are imminent.  

 

The LMS and GWR have both had a reasonable set of new releases of main line stock in recent times, plus non-corridor types for the LMS and a BR (W) Autocoach..

 

Whilst coverage of LNER coaching stock has been mainly limited to secondary stock of late, there are always the new Bachmann Thompsons, Hornby Pullmans and, B.R Mk.1s  for Eastern Region fans. Just a pity that the existing range of r-t-r Gresley corridors is both limited and compromised in shape. 

 

There are still plenty of gaps to fill but, all in all, I think we modellers and especially, (I never thought I'd get to say this) we Southern modellers, have been provided with a greater variety of r-t-r stock to give our locos their raison d'etre in recent years than ever before.

 

Never had it so good? Probably, and certainly a lot better than I would have dreamed even twenty years ago.

 

John

Edited October 29, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

But is your second para entirely true, and if so, in what scale? In 00, I think we have less choice across all aspects of kits, detailing parts and scratchbuilder aids than compared to, say, the 1970's/80's, despite the advent of 3D suppliers, although I agree the quality has improved amongst those that remain...

The minority scales wouldn't change the overall picture. And rather one genuinely good material / kit / technique, than a choice of a dozen all with significant failings..